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  1. #1816
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsbll4 View Post
    It's a nice platitude, but we're talking about concrete policy, not idealism. You can come out tomorrow and draw up legislation based on idealism but it won't accomplish anything (see the war on poverty, war on drugs, etc. All based on idealism but haven't made a bit of difference). We need policy decisions from both sides that actually move the needle on results, not just appearances.



    If there's one thing we've learned about the green movement over the last half century, it's that "not in my backyard" is intrinsically linked to it. Everyone wants cleaner energy, but they don't want to pay extra for it and they don't want the giant infrastructure needed for it to impact their views or property values. That's true of any infrastructure project, but it's just more ironic when it happens with the "we have to do this to save the planet!" crowd.

    Who here remembers Ted Kennedy objecting to wind farms out in the ocean because it would ruin his view? There are also practical issues, as discussed here from Brookings:
    Republicans want land, that could be used for housing, for "Golf Courses."
    Dems want the land for Wind Farms.
    In either case, people are sent to live in congested cities.
    Pick you poison.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsbll4 View Post
    It's a nice platitude, but we're talking about concrete policy, not idealism. You can come out tomorrow and draw up legislation based on idealism but it won't accomplish anything (see the war on poverty, war on drugs, etc. All based on idealism but haven't made a bit of difference). We need policy decisions from both sides that actually move the needle on results, not just appearances.



    If there's one thing we've learned about the green movement over the last half century, it's that "not in my backyard" is intrinsically linked to it. Everyone wants cleaner energy, but they don't want to pay extra for it and they don't want the giant infrastructure needed for it to impact their views or property values. That's true of any infrastructure project, but it's just more ironic when it happens with the "we have to do this to save the planet!" crowd.

    Who here remembers Ted Kennedy objecting to wind farms out in the ocean because it would ruin his view? There are also practical issues, as discussed here from Brookings:
    Without idealism the United States does not end slavery, establish a constitutional definition of citizenship that includes African Americans and other minorities, extend the franchise to women or minorities, codify and enforce civil rights, women's rights, and LGBTQ rights. I see your point, though. Idealism is overrated.
    "To hell with the rules. If it sounds right, then it is." King Edward Lodewijk Van Halen

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  4. #1818
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    Quote Originally Posted by It's Mike View Post
    it won't cripple the economy, it doesn't have that sort of impact. But it's a short sighted decision.
    Not by itself, but will be a domino effect if that EO stays in place.

  5. #1819
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    Quote Originally Posted by VH1986 View Post
    Without idealism the United States does not end slavery, establish a constitutional definition of citizenship that includes African Americans and other minorities, extend the franchise to women or minorities, codify and enforce civil rights, women's rights, and LGBTQ rights. I see your point, though. Idealism is overrated.
    Those are all concrete policies enacted with legislation that produces immediate results. They are binary. You either have slavery or you don't. You either have the right to vote or you don't. You can either get married or you can't. All of that is solved with a single piece of legislation or ruling from the Supreme Court. That has nothing to do with the idealism we're talking about with the Keystone Pipeline because cancelling the pipeline isn't ending carbon emissions in the US. That's why it's more like the war on drugs or the war on poverty. You can slice and dice at the edges of the problem to make everyone feel good about themselves because it follows their ideology, but it doesn't actually produce results to the larger problem. In the meantime, it produces a number of negative side effects and unintended consequences that arguably make things worse. The war on drugs hit minorities harder and set them back a generation with mass incarceration without making an impact on drug use, the war on poverty inadvertently encouraged single parent households and gutted the African American community without ever decreasing the poverty rate and making it harder to break the cycle of poverty, and in this case, we're killing jobs while talking about massive unemployment aid and stimulus checks.
    CNN may think my opinion matters, but you shouldn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsbll4 View Post
    Those are all concrete policies enacted with legislation that produces immediate results. They are binary. You either have slavery or you don't. You either have the right to vote or you don't. You can either get married or you can't. All of that is solved with a single piece of legislation or ruling from the Supreme Court. That has nothing to do with the idealism we're talking about with the Keystone Pipeline because cancelling the pipeline isn't ending carbon emissions in the US. That's why it's more like the war on drugs or the war on poverty. You can slice and dice at the edges of the problem to make everyone feel good about themselves because it follows their ideology, but it doesn't actually produce results to the larger problem. In the meantime, it produces a number of negative side effects and unintended consequences that arguably make things worse. The war on drugs hit minorities harder and set them back a generation with mass incarceration without making an impact on drug use, the war on poverty inadvertently encouraged single parent households and gutted the African American community without ever decreasing the poverty rate and making it harder to break the cycle of poverty, and in this case, we're killing jobs while talking about massive unemployment aid and stimulus checks.
    Very well said.

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    I will give liberals their due on "idealism".

    Republicans sure as hell dont have any apart from yapping about debt. They push nothing that advances American society into the future. Just the same ol shit different day.

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    National Guardsmen weaponized and then put in a parking garage:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pol...capitol-461220
    Michael Caine on Jaws: The Revenge:

    "I have never seen it, but by all accounts it is terrible. However, I have seen the house that it built and it is terrific."

    Samuel Johnson 1775 : “Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel”

    "McDonalds is The Antichrist" - Bill Hicks

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSH6ofHbeUw

    "See, if you look at the drug war from a purely economic point of view, the role of the government is to protect the drug cartel." - Economist Milton Friedman (1991)

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    Quote Originally Posted by rocknblues81 View Post
    National Guardsmen weaponized and then put in a parking garage:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pol...capitol-461220
    Read an article on that yesterday. Just pathetic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by It's Mike View Post
    Read an article on that yesterday. Just pathetic.

    Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk
    Pathetic is the word. Whenever you can get both Democrats and Republicans in Congress to agree, it means it was a shit show.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaboChris View Post
    I will give liberals their due on "idealism".

    Republicans sure as hell dont have any apart from yapping about debt. They push nothing that advances American society into the future. Just the same ol shit different day.
    My biggest problem with the Republican party is how they appear to lack any empathy. I do believe in the "pull yourself up by your boot straps" mantra, but sometimes it is ok to at least pretend like you give a shit.
    If I don't respond to you it means I have you on ignore, which means you are a douchenozzle.

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  13. #1826
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    The problem with idealism is that its defined by the powers at be. Plus sometimes it simply doesn't work. Take communism. It was something pushed by idealists out in Europe. Didn't work out or at best results were quite varied. BLM is using idealism that the nuclear family is terrible. From what I have seen over in my life, it appears that the data doesn't support that. Allowing trans athletes compete against women in sports is idealism. Now in time what will happen to those young biological girls and women who work their entire life only to see their dreams crushed.

    I do agree that Republicans don't have as many ideas to put out there as Democrats but its also due to the defining of their idealism by the media and opposing party. They have a far harder time to market their ideas to the public because lets face it, there isn't as many give outs. While they don't practice what they preach but curtailing welfare, unemployment, subsidies, benefits, etc is a hard sell when the opposing party is saying "we will give this to you, that and then some" Plus Trump was pushing America first. Less emphasis on the global economy. Taking an old Democrat position and making it GOP. It was embraced by a lot of people who did like Trump. This changed the directive of the GOP. How was this received by the Democrats and Media? Nationalistic and negative but it was still idealism.

    Same with staying out of nation building and limiting our involvement in foreign conflicts. That was a definite pivot from the GOP since WW2. Taking idealism from the 30's when everybody wanted the US in WW2 but we did our best to stay out of it. How was that received?

    Then you have North Korea. Typical GOP policy was similar to Cuba. Same with Democrats. People forget how close we were to having a war with North Korea during Clinton era. Yet a pivot occurred there so another idea of idealism. Negotiating with rogue states. How was that received?

    Not defending the GOP and their hypocrisy but just pointing out that idealism isn't simply a left leaning characteristic. Its just how the powers at be receive said changes and how do they accept them.

    Once people start realizing that not every idea from the Right or Left is good is when we can make progress. We shouldn't be basing our decisions on what the far left and right want. We should base them from the center. However we don't want to do that

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave's Dreidel View Post
    My biggest problem with the Republican party is how they appear to lack any empathy. I do believe in the "pull yourself up by your boot straps" mantra, but sometimes it is ok to at least pretend like you give a shit.
    WELL SAID.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VH1986 View Post
    Without idealism the United States does not end slavery, establish a constitutional definition of citizenship that includes African Americans and other minorities, extend the franchise to women or minorities, codify and enforce civil rights, women's rights, and LGBTQ rights. I see your point, though. Idealism is overrated.

    All good points, but to extend that same brand of idealism to the Biden Administration two days in is a stretch...don’t you think? I mean this guy had been in the Federal Government for near 40 years? Can’t at least some of the problems he’s championing to solve be of his own doing too?
    "Always hopeful, yet discontent,
    He knows changes aren't permanent
    But change is!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave's Dreidel View Post
    My biggest problem with the Republican party is how they appear to lack any empathy. I do believe in the "pull yourself up by your boot straps" mantra, but sometimes it is ok to at least pretend like you give a shit.
    If you define compassion as hand outs from the federal government, then yes, Republicans will definitely look like they lack compassion. However, the traditional ideals from the right (before Trump pivoted some of them, like ziggysmalls pointed out), was the idea of creating equal opportunity but not guaranteeing equal results. It was allowing the individual to keep more of their money because they know better how to use it than the federal government. It was about the government not picking winners and losers and letting the market dictate what is of worth. It was about local control vs federal control. It was about carrying a big stick to protect the citizens and not being afraid to use it. Like all idealism, those can produce policies and results with unintended consequences. That's where we're at with our politics, though, which is the point I was making a few pages back. We're less concerned with the results than we are with how we get there it seems.

    Everyone--Republicans and Democrats alike--want less (or, ideally no) poverty. We want people to be successful. We want people to be safe. We want the country to be better as a whole. Both sides in the end want the same thing for the most part, but there are different paths to getting there. Most of our time is spent demonizing the other side's path, and frankly much of the criticism is warranted because it never produces the intended result.
    CNN may think my opinion matters, but you shouldn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave's Dreidel View Post
    My biggest problem with the Republican party is how they appear to lack any empathy. I do believe in the "pull yourself up by your boot straps" mantra, but sometimes it is ok to at least pretend like you give a shit.
    It's what got Trump elected

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