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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edword View Post
    I'm in the minority of liking most of III. I can still listen to it from start to finish. Something I can't do with Balance. I agree that a few improvements could have been made (mostly lyrical) but beyond that I wouldn't have changed the album. Whenever people say it should have been a more "traditional" Van Halen album it just makes me shake my head. These guys were in their mid-40s and on the third incarnation of the band. Every frickin' rock band is allowed to evolve musically. Everyone from The Beatles, to Zeppelin, to Floyd, to Metallica evolved dramatically with their music. But, Van Halen fans always seem stuck in wanting Van Halen to be the same band they got hooked on as kids. I've never understood that.

    Business-wise, one reason III didn't work was that the musical evolution they were making was never going to fly because the band was a little too old to attract new fans the way they did when Sam joined. They lost a ton of Dave fans, but gained a ton of Sam fans, and all was well. But, by the time Gary joined, their fans were getting older, as was the band. Van Halen wasn't a kid's band anymore. Fans who were turned off by Gary weren't replaced by new ones.

    I really don't find that much wrong with III. It failed because it wasn't what fans expected, which is what I liked about it. It wasn't "traditional" VH and fans pitched a hissy fit, which in MANY ways is why Ed stopped recording. Then, when he did cut a new album the fans who want nothing but old VH bitched that the album was just born of left-over ideas from years ago. And, ADKOT was a solid album! There's just no winning. Give them new, they bitch. Give them new "old", they bitch.

    I've really come to think VH fans are among the worst. I can't blame Ed, too much. He was done with that "old" shit 22 years ago. The music he wanted to make is not what his "fans" wanted. They made that clear. So, why bother? He didn't need the money. He had his security. Why put all the time, effort and money into something your "fans" will only attack you for? I say God bless him. He was in a "Fuck You" position, and exercised his option. The ONLY thing about III that bums me out is that because of fan reaction, it de-railed Ed's musical direction and evolution, and the albums and truly new music that should have been, were lost.
    Nope. We didn't like VHIII because it was different. We didn't like it because it was bad.

    Most of us here have been groomed by Ed to anticipate his solo album with tuba and cello, the one he never made. But we're ready for it. Give it to us, now! We can do different, no problemo. What we CAN'T do is mediocre. Not with the VH name attached to it.
    Little Dreamer

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  3. #32
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    For VHIII, even though the production wasn't good, production isn't what killed it.
    It's the SONGS. Play those songs on acoustic guitar and what do you get? A mess, just like the album versions. You can't play those songs on acoustic guitar. A good song works on acoustic. Panama or Best of Both Worlds work on acoustic.
    And Gary could never find his place. I liked Gary on Pornograffiti. But we didn't get the same guy on VHIII. I could never "get" the VH-Gary. What is he, a socially conscious singer a la Springsteen? A party dude? Spiritual guy?
    He was trying for all these roles, not able to choose between them, and without the determination and tenacity that would've made him credible. I found his lack of conviction very disturbing, to quote Darth Vader.
    Little Dreamer

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  5. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Dreamer View Post
    For VHIII, even though the production wasn't good, production isn't what killed it.
    It's the SONGS. Play those songs on acoustic guitar and what do you get? A mess, just like the album versions. You can't play those songs on acoustic guitar. A good song works on acoustic. Panama or Best of Both Worlds work on acoustic.
    And Gary could never find his place. I liked Gary on Pornograffiti. But we didn't get the same guy on VHIII. I could never "get" the VH-Gary. What is he, a socially conscious singer a la Springsteen? A party dude? Spiritual guy?
    He was trying for all these roles, not able to choose between them, and without the determination and tenacity that would've made him credible. I found his lack of conviction very disturbing, to quote Darth Vader.
    I like the variety personally, but I can see how others might not. Very interesting point either way.
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  6. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by DFVH5150 View Post
    I like the variety personally, but I can see how others might not. Very interesting point either way.
    Sometimes, variety is "the spice of life". When it came to VH III, it was a case of "jack of all trades, master of none."
    "It's so lonely at the top because it's so crowded at the bottom" - Diamond David Lee Roth

    "The truth sounds like hate to those who hate the truth" - Todd Wagner

    "Women and Children First ... The REAL Van Halen III"

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    Listen to the riff for Ballot or the Bullet, and then listen to the theme song from I Dream of Jeannie.
    I asked a ref if he could give me a technical foul for thinking bad things about him. He said, of course not. I said, well, I think you stink. And he gave me a technical. You can't trust em. -
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    It's hard to understand what happened with Ed on that record. It seems he lost his capacity to write good transitions between different parts. Look at Pleasure Dome on FUCK - it's a longer song, but the parts flow. It doesn't feel disjointed. And at the beginning, you can feel the momentum building, almost like you would in a movie, in an old school thriller.
    You got none of that on VHIII - parts are ok, but they don't grab you.
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  11. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Dreamer View Post
    It's hard to understand what happened with Ed on that record. It seems he lost his capacity to write good transitions between different parts. Look at Pleasure Dome on FUCK - it's a longer song, but the parts flow. It doesn't feel disjointed. And at the beginning, you can feel the momentum building, almost like you would in a movie, in an old school thriller.
    You got none of that on VHIII - parts are ok, but they don't grab you.
    He didn't lost it, I don't think. What he lost was Dave, Sam, and Ted Templeman telling him what to play.
    Remember, Sam said (and I believe it) Ed typically came in with lots of disjointed random riffs and ideas, not whole songs, and then he and the producer would pick through them and work with them until they were complete.

    VH3 I believe is the first time Ed really was the primary involved in the complete process without anyone else to disagree with him.

    So I'm not sure he lost that ability, I don't think he ever had it....it was a joint effort and required an Alpha....Sam or Dave, to make it happen.
    I asked a ref if he could give me a technical foul for thinking bad things about him. He said, of course not. I said, well, I think you stink. And he gave me a technical. You can't trust em. -
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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pacfanweb View Post
    He didn't lost it, I don't think. What he lost was Dave, Sam, and Ted Templeman telling him what to play.
    Remember, Sam said (and I believe it) Ed typically came in with lots of disjointed random riffs and ideas, not whole songs, and then he and the producer would pick through them and work with them until they were complete.

    VH3 I believe is the first time Ed really was the primary involved in the complete process without anyone else to disagree with him.

    So I'm not sure he lost that ability, I don't think he ever had it....it was a joint effort and required an Alpha....Sam or Dave, to make it happen.
    Personally, I think Sam exaggerated his role in shaping those songs. But I DO buy the premise that Ed (and anybody else, really) needs someone to "edit" their ideas. With III, it's kinda like they just threw out the editing process and published the first draft.

    On the other hand, think about it this way. Ed wrote stellar songs with Dave and stellar songs with Sam. And they wrote those songs with Ed bringing the musical ideas to them and working around them. No doubt Dave and Sam helped arrange, as well as Ted Templeman. But Dave and Sam on their own rarely wrote songs that even belong in the same room with the songs they wrote with Ed. The common denominator is Ed, and I think Ed is actually a very good composer. Even his solos have form and structure.

    Anyway, I'm sure there is a kernel of truth in what Sam says. But as usual, I suspect he is inflating his influence on the whole affair. Who knows, really? That's just my take.

    TK

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    3 is fine the way it is; it's just another version of VH people will debate over because its not what they knew VH to be when they first heard VH - some folks have a hard time with change when they enjoy something they way it is. If you want to get philosophical about it, there are already "remasters" of 3 here on the links & personally, when the 3 lineup played any of the material live - they smoked it. All of them said they wish they'd have toured first before recording because they become more of a cohesive unit and understood one another's strengths better in the new lineup, & I wish the followup hadn't gotten cancelled sometime, just like Dave's 2000 sessions, or the demos Sammy says the had worked on that became other things after they broke up, or even the other tracks that just might be ideas from ADKOT.

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  17. #40
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    The songs on Van Halen 3 weren't what Van Halen fans wanted to hear. I don't think they were very catchy, and most importantly, didn't have the fun happy feeling that people usually associate with Van Halen. There are little parts I like here and there, but its just not enough. Sure, the production quality wasn't that good, but that didn't doom the album. 5150, OU812, and A Different Kind of Truth weren't produced well either, but a lot of people liked the songs. And its that simple really. Eddie gets points for wanting to do something different--he was tired of the party band image--but that's about it.

    I think the album damaged Eddie a little. It was the first time he put something out that was soundly rejected by almost everyone. In his mind, he proved that he could survive without Roth, so he wanted to show that he could survive without Hagar. The only difference was, the songs with Hagar--like them or not--at least still had that fun vibe to them. If Roth and Hagar songs were like a bright sunny day with your friends, then the Cherone songs were like being alone on a cold rainy day in the middle of winter. Well, I don't enjoy rain.
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  19. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashe View Post
    The songs on Van Halen 3 weren't what Van Halen fans wanted to hear. I don't think they were very catchy, and most importantly, didn't have the fun happy feeling that people usually associate with Van Halen. There are little parts I like here and there, but its just not enough. Sure, the production quality wasn't that good, but that didn't doom the album. 5150, OU812, and A Different Kind of Truth weren't produced well either, but a lot of people liked the songs. And its that simple really. Eddie gets points for wanting to do something different--he was tired of the party band image--but that's about it.

    I think the album damaged Eddie a little. It was the first time he put something out that was soundly rejected by almost everyone. In his mind, he proved that he could survive without Roth, so he wanted to show that he could survive without Hagar. The only difference was, the songs with Hagar--like them or not--at least still had that fun vibe to them. If Roth and Hagar songs were like a bright sunny day with your friends, then the Cherone songs were like being alone on a cold rainy day in the middle of winter. Well, I don't enjoy rain.
    "One I Want," "Dirty Water Dog," and "Fire in the Hole" had a little fun in them, but not nearly as much as we're used to. I agree--bring the sunshine!
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  20. #42
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    An interview at the time indicated Ed wrote a lot of it to Gary's lyrics and melodies. The only thing with that is Eddie doesn't write like other guitarists do. Listen to the pre-chorus of "One I Want" and I think that's what's going on there.

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  22. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by danielleesale View Post
    An interview at the time indicated Ed wrote a lot of it to Gary's lyrics and melodies. The only thing with that is Eddie doesn't write like other guitarists do. Listen to the pre-chorus of "One I Want" and I think that's what's going on there.
    The "everyone's looking for something" part?
    Last edited by DFVH5150; 09.09.20 at 02:16 PM.
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    DAVE SOLO: 14x
    SAMMY SOLO: 15x (W/MONTROSE 1x, @CABO WABO CANTINA 1x)
    GARY/EXTREME/TRIBE OF JUDAH/HURTSMILE: 7x
    MET: Sammy 1x, Dave almost 1x, Gary 2x

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    Yeah.

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    I disagree with the idea that the album wasn't "fun enough." Fair Warning or Balance are not "fun," but they're still good or great VH records.
    Little Dreamer

 

 

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