2020 CoronaVirus Outbreak - That began in Wuhan, China and is spreading - Page 1224
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    Sweden was an abject failure by any reasonable standard. They are bordered by Norway and Finland and have a per capita death rate 7-9 times higher. But they were the first to say open everything up so a bunch of right wing news sources started blowing them (then missed the news of them reversing path ).



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    Quote Originally Posted by It's Mike View Post
    Sweden was an abject failure by any reasonable standard. They are bordered by Norway and Finland and have a per capita death rate 7-9 times higher. But they were the first to say open everything up so a bunch of right wing news sources started blowing them (then missed the news of them reversing path ).



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    Yeah, though it seems there is not a really good apples to apples comparison. Their population is double their immediate neighbors. Iceland is an island. So are its neighbors teh best comparison or other countries of similar population, GDP, age, and types of jobs (many Swedish jobs can easily be done remotely).

    I think one could make an argument it was in between a failure to neither a success nor a failure, but either way they ended up with a lot of deaths.

  3. #18348
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    Quote Originally Posted by lovemachine97(Version 2) View Post
    Yeah, though it seems there is not a really good apples to apples comparison. Their population is double their immediate neighbors. Iceland is an island. So are its neighbors teh best comparison or other countries of similar population, GDP, age, and types of jobs (many Swedish jobs can easily be done remotely).

    I think one could make an argument it was in between a failure to neither a success nor a failure, but either way they ended up with a lot of deaths.
    Who better to compare Sweden to than their neighbours? Sweden and Finland have near identical demographics. Median age, birth rate, death rate, urban vs rural, etc. If America's death rate was 7 times that of Mexico and 9 times that of Canada, would anyone call that anything but a massive policy failure?

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    No offense but we're all talking out of our asses when we try to speculate what would have/could have happened "if" this or that, if we don't have rock solid data to begin with, which we don't. You can't accurately extrapolate what projections of death would have been unless you know first how many millions were already exposed prior to lockdowns who were either asymptomatic or thought they had regular colds/flu's. We haven't prioritized antibody tests to date so fuck that. That projection is GONE. You need actual standards for this stuff that we don't have (Globally, not just here in the U.S.). Sweden did get a lot of press early on. I don't think I'd call it a failure personally. America looks botched to some degree but I imagine it would when you monetize a virus for whatever reason you do that (payouts for ventilators etc). All these little variables matter quite a lot but then you get a bunch of monkey's like us talking shit on a van halen message board like we know something when really I don't think we do. Some might think we do, but at this point those are the ones to be the most skeptical of to me personally. They've talked themselves in to believing something as fact without the possibility of really having all the actual facts added in to their equations. That's just blowing hot air acting like they know shit, exactly like many of our leaders and advisors are doing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seenbad View Post
    No offense but we're all talking out of our asses when we try to speculate what would have/could have happened "if" this or that, if we don't have rock solid data to begin with, which we don't. You can't accurately extrapolate what projections of death would have been unless you know first how many millions were already exposed prior to lockdowns who were either asymptomatic or thought they had regular colds/flu's. We haven't prioritized antibody tests to date so fuck that. That projection is GONE. You need actual standards for this stuff that we don't have (Globally, not just here in the U.S.). Sweden did get a lot of press early on. I don't think I'd call it a failure personally. America looks botched to some degree but I imagine it would when you monetize a virus for whatever reason you do that (payouts for ventilators etc). All these little variables matter quite a lot but then you get a bunch of monkey's like us talking shit on a van halen message board like we know something when really I don't think we do. Some might think we do, but at this point those are the ones to be the most skeptical of to me personally. They've talked themselves in to believing something as fact without the possibility of really having all the actual facts added in to their equations. That's just blowing hot air acting like they know shit, exactly like many of our leaders and advisors are doing.
    I think we have 18 months of solid information now. We can certainly see what happened when certain strategies were implemented. It's not talking out of our asses when we do that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by It's Mike View Post
    Who better to compare Sweden to than their neighbours? Sweden and Finland have near identical demographics. Median age, birth rate, death rate, urban vs rural, etc. If America's death rate was 7 times that of Mexico and 9 times that of Canada, would anyone call that anything but a massive policy failure?

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    I guess what I am saying is that there are some making a dry kindling argument in Sweden along with being twice the population in only a slightly larger area, which could account for some. But I do agree probably not 7 times the difference. But in a conversation where I am trying to make a specific argument about vaccines=good, I don't want to fight each and every point tooth and nail, especially when I agree that I don't think several extended lockdowns were really necessary in hindsight. That's all.

    Quote Originally Posted by seenbad View Post
    No offense but we're all talking out of our asses when we try to speculate what would have/could have happened "if" this or that, if we don't have rock solid data to begin with, which we don't. You can't accurately extrapolate what projections of death would have been unless you know first how many millions were already exposed prior to lockdowns who were either asymptomatic or thought they had regular colds/flu's. We haven't prioritized antibody tests to date so fuck that. That projection is GONE. You need actual standards for this stuff that we don't have (Globally, not just here in the U.S.). Sweden did get a lot of press early on. I don't think I'd call it a failure personally. America looks botched to some degree but I imagine it would when you monetize a virus for whatever reason you do that (payouts for ventilators etc). All these little variables matter quite a lot but then you get a bunch of monkey's like us talking shit on a van halen message board like we know something when really I don't think we do. Some might think we do, but at this point those are the ones to be the most skeptical of to me personally. They've talked themselves in to believing something as fact without the possibility of really having all the actual facts added in to their equations. That's just blowing hot air acting like they know shit, exactly like many of our leaders and advisors are doing.
    I think you can know a good amount on this with a fair amount of reliability. You can also know a lot about vaccines because we have a lot of them and have been giving them to a lot of people for a very long time. So when A, B, and C have always been true about vaccines and D, E, and F have never been true, and one year into this vaccine A, B, and C are true and D, E, and F have not happened, I think we have some very compelling evidence that these vaccines are like every single one ever made ever.

    You can also know other things based upon data, perhaps with a bit of trust. Like, my work is still telling us to wipe down desks and computers after each student. They also want you to wash you hands before going to the Sparklett's dispenser, fill up a red Solo cup, use that to fill up your cup, and then wipe down the water dispenser afterwards.

    Nope. Won't do it unless the supervisor is staring at me. We have known since summer 2020 that this doesn't touch transfer and is an airborne disease. I don't have time for health theater. No one has disprove this, so there is no need to wipe things down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by It's Mike View Post
    I think we have 18 months of solid information now. We can certainly see what happened when certain strategies were implemented. It's not talking out of our asses when we do that.

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    You think it's solid, I don't. I don't think it's even close to "solid". To each his own.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lovemachine97(Version 2) View Post

    Nope. Won't do it unless the supervisor is staring at me. We have known since summer 2020 that this doesn't touch transfer and is an airborne disease. I don't have time for health theater. No one has disprove this, so there is no need to wipe things down.
    You're a right wing science denying Jesus freak going to hell for that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seenbad View Post
    You think it's solid, I don't. I don't think it's even close to "solid". To each his own.
    Yup. Goes back to the mistrust in government thing that caused so much of these deaths.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seenbad View Post
    You're a right wing science denying Jesus freak going to hell for that.
    I think the overwhelming evidence points to that being a poor comparison.

    What would it take to convince you the vaccine is safe and effective?


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    Omg LM. I was kidding.

    What's it take to convince me it's safe and effective or what's it take to convince me to take it?

    1. A couple years
    2. Nothing. I dont want it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seenbad View Post
    Omg LM. I was kidding.

    What's it take to convince me it's safe and effective or what's it take to convince me to take it?

    1. A couple years
    2. Nothing. I dont want it.

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    I don't have a lot of family close by. I have my parents, 74, with conditions. They struggled with weight, but the last 15 years they have managed their health meticulously and preemptively, and despite a booster that makes them relatively safe, remaining in a pandemic puts them unnecessarily at risk.

    I have two children who are special needs and their condition, it seems, makes them 3 times more likely to die of COVID than the average child. My daughter lost a year of vital therapy due to lockdowns and the pandemic. And many weeks, where every day is important, were lost because of vaccine hesitancy amongst in home health care workers. Her possibility of being an adult who functions without help was at least partially lessened due to vaccine hesitancy. Other therapies she needs are STILL virtual and basically a waste of time, due to hesitancy. Weeks and months lost, a future dimmed.

    Now, we have decades and decades and decades of evidence, an obscene amount of information to where we know vaccine side effects do not happen after two months. We have an incredible amount of evidence on effectiveness. These vaccines did not receive any less rigorous safety testing than any other vaccine. I'm talking, if we had the same amount of quality evidence we do on the safety (and efficacy) of vaccines, including this one, against people on death row, we'd never put another innocent person to death again.

    But that doesn't sway you. You still want "years." Years that are a complete and utter waste of time when it comes to vaccine safety, but a complete and utter disaster when it comes to the safety of vulnerable people who do not have to suffer and/or die. You don't want the vaccine because you aren't convinced of your personal risk due to the death rate. Well, that extends this pandemic.

    So here's the thing. I have had a bad week. I am currently sick with a cold. I love my kids to death, but raising them is hard. We are awaiting a neurology appointment for my daughter. We need to rule out seizures that could be causing brain damage. We are also potty training her. But because of her needs, it is very difficult. Work has been hectic. It's all caused strife with me and my wife. We will get through it, but what doesn't help is the knowledge that people who ignore evidence and don't care about anything outside of their own perceived risk of death are putting people at risk in ways they don't bother to think about at best, are too rigid to change their mind about, and don't care about, at worst.

    So I write the above paragraph to preface the fact that I would normally hold on to what I am about to say, but I don't have the energy: You and people like you are extending this pandemic, resulting in deaths and complications and, in the case of one of my kids and many other special needs kids, a worse future because you won't get the Goddamn vaccine that is safe and effective and could curb a lot of pain and suffering. You probably didn't think about how an extended pandemic could hurt kids who need help the most in ways that don't have to do with death or even catching the virus.

    Which is a long way to get to the fact that I am sorry you were joking, but I just don't see a lot of humor in this. I wish you luck and I hope you and yours are safe and healthy. I am also sorry that other people in this country will have to suffer because of the decision you and others are making.

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    I am truly sorry for the stress those responsibilities carry for you, as well as the tough week LM. I dont make light of that. We all have different burdens we bear and I wish you nothing but the very best with yours. You seem like a more rational thinker than most. I would ask you to step back from this for a moment as best you can and ask yourself if your angst should really be towards myself and people "like me", or with how its been handled by fill in the blank...elected leaders, WHO, CDC, FDA, Trump, Biden, Fauci, ...China? I don't recall you ever posting disdain towards people not getting a flu shot, but an honest (honest) look puts us in that same realm numbers wise if you take out the hype.

    Were you this emotional over those that didn't get flu shots in years past? You see me and my own personal choice as the obstacle in your way towards your own progress, but is that really true? Can you really put that on me, or ask that of me, for you? I get the frustration you feel but I'm not sure that it's justly or fairly pointed. I'll accept either yes or no to that after honestly considering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seenbad View Post
    I am truly sorry for the stress those responsibilities carry for you, as well as the tough week LM. I dont make light of that. We all have different burdens we bear and I wish you nothing but the very best with yours. You seem like a more rational thinker than most. I would ask you to step back from this for a moment as best you can and ask yourself if your angst should really be towards myself and people "like me", or with how its been handled by fill in the blank...elected leaders, WHO, CDC, FDA, Trump, Biden, Fauci, ...China? I don't recall you ever posting disdain towards people not getting a flu shot, but an honest (honest) look puts us in that same realm numbers wise if you take out the hype.

    Were you this emotional over those that didn't get flu shots in years past? You see me and my own personal choice as the obstacle in your way towards your own progress, but is that really true? Can you really put that on me, or ask that of me, for you? I get the frustration you feel but I'm not sure that it's justly or fairly pointed. I'll accept either yes or no to that after honestly considering.

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    The CDC and FDA should be burned to the ground and start over. I believe I pointed out in this thread that the 5-11 request has been made by Pfizer. The FDA won’t meet till 10/26, and then a decision that should only be days may take weeks. Kids may not die in huge numbers, but they do die, and I think we should track all that do in the time they drag their feet and those deaths are on the FDA.

    Trump was awful for not wearing a mask. Biden was awful for wearing masks after vaccination when he didn’t need to. There’s lots of bad in a lot of places.

    But there is also lots of knowledge. We don’t need to agree on the FDA and CDC to see that we have lots and lots of data and experience with vaccines to know certain things as essentially fact. In fact, the biggest problem with the two entities is being too cautious.

    I am sorry I made it personal towards you, but I’ve spent a lot of time talking to people about this because I think it’s important and no one ever seems to mention more than “my body,” “the death rate,” and “longterm safety.” There’s never any mention of passing the disease to someone who could die or doing one’s part for herd immunity to protect the vulnerable like cancer patients and organ recipients.

    Yes, it’s your decision. But I wish part of one’s personal equation went beyond their own noses.

    What I mean by nuance and not black and white and looking at things and putting trust in people who are experts in particular fields who seem to really try not to be biased: You’d find we know 6 feet is bullshit and not scientific. That this doesn’t touch transfer. We don’t need to mask kids under 7. But also that these vaccines are safe an effective and the main issue with wavering effectiveness is figuring out dosages and boosters and time frames in real time in a pandemic.

    If you take anything from this, take that there are consequences to not reaching herd immunity as quickly as possible that go beyond old, fat people dying. Like a whole generation of special needs kids who, with therapy before 3, could have wonderful outcomes, but not if those therapies are virtual. That special needs kids may be more likely to die. That people with small families very much want their parents to get every moment with their grandkids. Maybe there is something to what I’m saying about vaccines leaving your body in days to a week and not causing longterm problems like medication you take daily for a decade, something that makes some sense if you think about it.

    Be well and know I thank you for you sincerity and also for wishing me well.


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    I think on the whole, this country would be best served if we just agreed that vaccines work. Ditch the mask mandates, 6 feet, kids, etc. Be open that maybe everything that was said about the virus was reactionary or even politicized on both fronts. They were best guesses in error. Have Fauci get a bit of a bitch slap because while he is worshipped here, the guy is a slime ball. Sorry calling balls and strikes. He is dirty.

    You look around the world and they are doing things differently then us and most of them don't have the incredible divide that we have. I know we have learned some things over 18 months but in reality, not that much. What did we know in March 2020?

    If you were old, fat, unhealthy or had a immune disorder you likely don't want to be 10 feet of COVID. 18 months later this holds true. Just be truthful that despite our efforts that Mother Nature will win out. We were told flatten the curve and then we had this illogical belief that once a vaccine was created it was gone. That was never a certainty. Still holds true. Some vaccines will not eliminate a virus. Like the Spanish Flu. Just so much misinformation from both sides and the lines were drawn. We need to remove said lines and come to an acceptance this will be around. Like other countries are doing. Including the well respected Nordic countries. Heck Vermont has 90% vaccination rate and today, their cases are going up.

    I just don't see why this viewpoint is considered illogical. We have the flu from 1918. We really thought that once a vaccine was put out, COVID would go off with a whimper? Maybe it could have but we never were guaranteed that. People say "Follow the scicence" Science will tell you viri usually win out.

    Anyway I do feel sorry for everybody affected by this but then again we are more concerned who isn't wearing a mask, getting a shot, kids, etc instead of maybe trying to really find out how this was put out there from an unbiased committee. Nope. Just trust the WHO and China and who knows, they could be right. Yet nobody really cares. Just divide and conquer.

 

 

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