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    Quote Originally Posted by It's Mike View Post
    Maybe I'm giving the cop too much credit but from my experience most cops don't tend to fight with people who do as they are told.
    Do as they're told?

    That's the problem right there.

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    Daunte Wright had a warrant out for his arrest for attempted aggravated robbery charges after 'choking and holding a woman at gunpoint for $820 in 2019,' court papers reveal

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...y-charges.html

    Guess that's why he was 'scared' and tried to get away.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsbll4 View Post
    If he doesn't follow the rules he loses his job. Besides, what you're implying is that this lady cop wasn't concerned about making a mistake that would take someone else's life because she might get sued. Despite the characterizations of evil cops out for blood we see in media, I don't believe that entered in the equation here for even a second. You might be able to make an argument that cops would be more careful to not escalate a situation if qualified immunity was taken away, however I still question how effective that would actually be. Most of these things happen because the cop has a fear for his or her life and they make a snap judgment. No one is going to change their mind on snap judgment about whether they live or die simply because there's a possibility they could get sued. That's like saying when you're driving down the highway and a car crosses the yellow line coming right at you, in that split second of a life or death decision you calculate how much insurance will cover you if you turn left to avoid it and hit another car, turn right to avoid it and hit a tree, or stay straight and hope the other care swerves back and you don't have an accident. You're going to do whatever your instinct tells you is the most likely to let you live, and that's it. Finances never enter the equation.



    One of those things actually happens, the other is a made up narrative.

    I get what you're saying and I appreciate the use of data. Using your calculation, let's break it down even further though. If it's a 1 in 3 million chance a cop dies at each traffic stop, let's stretch that out for a career. Let's say the average cop makes 5 stops per day, 5 days a week, for 25 years. Suddenly that .000003% chance he loses his life turns into .01875, which means for every 100 police officers doing that, at least one, probably two, will not live to see retirement due to being killed on a traffic stop. Those aren't exactly the kind of odds that get people excited to sign up for that work.

    These are the people that run into danger on purpose because that's their job. Most of the time they aren't any more equipped to handle that danger than the average Texan, yet that's what they sign up for because that's what we ask for when we dial 911. By pulling qualified immunity you give anyone that ever has a grievance with a police officer the option to file a civil suit against that officer no matter how valid the reason is. For $350 bucks, you can file that suit against the officer and they have to lawyer up in the hopes whatever is charged against them won't hold up (with a lower threshold for proof, as you're well aware) and they're only out the time it takes for them to appear in court and potentially the lawyer fee associated with it (assuming the court doesn't ask the filer to pay the lawyer fees in their judgment). I can't understand why anyone would think that's a tenable situation.

    If you think the quality of our policing is bad now, just wait until you pull qualified immunity. For the same reason defunding the police is an near-sighted notion that leads to more crime, this would have the same result.
    It's still a 0.000003% chance every approach.

    Let me go back to a post I made last month.

    No matter the quality of the human being, if your officer followed protocol, yet a man who posed no danger suffocates to death with a cop's knee on his neck for 9 minutes after allegedly trying to pass a fake $20, perhaps we need to take a second look at your protocol.

    If cops followed protocol in executing a drug warrant, but find no drugs, do not find the person they were looking for, did not realize a family lived there, and they severely burn a baby by landing a grenade in its crib, perhaps we need to take a second look at your protocol.

    If cops followed protocol in executing a warrant, but do not find contraband, nor the person they were looking for, and an innocent woman ends up dead and a cop shot, perhaps it's time to take a second look at protocol.

    (I could list thousands of these.)

    And if they did NOT follow protocol, it's time to take a second look at their training.

    If they were trained properly and continue to make mistakes and do not follow protocol, THEN it's time to take a look at that particular cop.

    This idea that danger lurks at every stop is part of why we see such escalation, whether it is the cop pulling his gun within seconds on George Floyd or the recent stop of the soldier. To me, the vast majority of this is a protocol and training issue, not an individual officer issue.

    Here is why I disagree that ending qualified immunity would result in the sky falling. One, SCOTUS has ruled that courts cannot second-guess on-the-spot policing decisions for excessive force under the objective reasonableness standard. Unless an officer acts objectively unreasonably, they cannot be second guessed. Remember, QI is only necessary when someone's constitutional rights have been violated. Because they DO have to make these decisions, that what makes the legal fiction of QI so strange. It's not as if police are studying court cases to see what has and has not been "clearly established." This means QI has nothing to do with the protections people in favor of it say they want.

    Two, police are indemnified in these situations. They are provided counsel and 99.98% of the settlement monies are paid by the cities. They aren't held personably liable even when QI doesn't apply. A better use of the money cities pay in these settlements is to set it aside as a form of malpractice insurance for police officers. Officers who routinely break protocol or violate the rights of citizens would then see their premiums go up and maintaining their job becomes untenable.

    Three, this is a standard in no other profession. Emergency surgeries mean split second decisions are made by doctors, but only negligence is malpractice. Imagine if doctors decided they could only be sued for negligence if another doctor had made the exact same mistake as documented by a court. I don't know a single doctor who says malpractice lawsuits and having to acknowledge legal standards in their work stopped them from becoming a doctor.

    Finally, when it comes to the community they must protect and serve, nothing undermines that relationship than the knowledge that police can routinely commit misconduct without being held liable for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheresOnlyOneWay View Post
    Daunte Wright had a warrant out for his arrest for attempted aggravated robbery charges after 'choking and holding a woman at gunpoint for $820 in 2019,' court papers reveal

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...y-charges.html

    Guess that's why he was 'scared' and tried to get away.
    Another violent thug for the left to turn into a hero.

    Not that it changes most of what I said before.
    Last edited by rocknblues81; 04.13.21 at 03:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaboChris View Post
    Do as they're told?

    That's the problem right there.
    I don't see it as a problem. I think the fight against authority nonsense gets people into trouble, not only with cops but in life in general.


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    Quote Originally Posted by rocknblues81 View Post
    Another violent thug for the left to turn into a hero.

    Not that it changes most of what I said before.
    One thing I'll say about American cops who kill innocent people is that most of the time it's not people that society will miss.

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    Was George Floyd a hero? It would appear not. Was George Floyd murdered? Yes. If you murder a person of questionable character, you are still a murderer. And if you are a cop, the shame is double, because you have willingly accepted the responsibility for using legal force.

    The rest is sophistry.

    TK

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    Quote Originally Posted by It's Mike View Post
    Watched it. Cops a little over aggressive certainly. I think the incident probably calms down if the gentleman calmly gets out of the car and they see his uniform.

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    His goatee would’ve caused some questions about if he was actually in the Army...the US Army still has strict regulations about facial hair and a goatee is a definite no-no. When I first saw the video that was the first thing I noticed.

    There is a lot of talk about the police officers being tone-deaf to the present situation, but what about the Army Lt? What ONUS is on him? That time homered parental phrase of it “it takes two to tango,” applies here. He was pulled over, and he refused to comply with their orders? His military service and holding a Congressional commission as an officer in the US Army are more than enough to inform him of a what is a “lawful order” by a recognized legal authority. Had he given the same order to one of the troops under his command they would’ve been held accountable for refusing under the UCMJ...and he being a Lt in the Army he has been fully made aware that he is subject to the all city, State, and Federal laws in addition to the UCMJ.
    Last edited by wombattt; 04.13.21 at 07:28 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pickslide View Post
    Was George Floyd a hero? It would appear not. Was George Floyd murdered? Yes. If you murder a person of questionable character, you are still a murderer. And if you are a cop, the shame is double, because you have willingly accepted the responsibility for using legal force.

    The rest is sophistry.

    TK
    I'm not denying that thugs have rights also.

    Like I said, I still stand by what I said before.

    So many are so damn irrational about this.

    Libertarians are just as irrational on this as the left.

    They're more anti cop than the left is because the left are only anti cop when the cops aren't enforcing their agenda. The rhetoric from the LP is almost exclusively hate.

    Sometimes I want to see cops completely removed from these crime ridden areas just to see if we get the paradise and freedom than the left and LP thinks we will get.

    I bet it doesn't happen.

    Yes, the right does tend to defend cops too much.

    I'm sick of all of our political parties to be honest.
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    The cop was fired. End of story.

    We're doing what we always do

    "He was military BUT...."

    We do this every single fucking time when it comes to police.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rocknblues81 View Post
    I'm not denying that thugs have rights also.

    Like I said, I still stand by what I said before.

    So many are so damn irrational about this.

    Libertarians are just as irrational on this as the left.

    They're more anti cop than the left is because the left are only anti cop when the cops aren't enforcing their agenda. The rhetoric from the LP is almost exclusively hate.

    Sometimes I want to see cops completely removed from these crime ridden areas just to see if we get the paradise and freedom than the left and LP thinks we will get.

    I bet it doesn't happen.

    Yes, the right does tend to defend cops too much.

    I'm sick of all of our political parties to be honest.
    Yet, nobody's brought up the Left or the Right here, except you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaboChris View Post
    The cop was fired. End of story.

    We're doing what we always do

    "He was military BUT...."

    We do this every single fucking time when it comes to police.
    I don't think anyone has said the cop handled it correctly

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    Default George Floyd & the protesting & rioting across the USA!

    Quote Originally Posted by rocknblues81 View Post
    I'm not denying that thugs have rights also.

    Like I said, I still stand by what I said before.

    So many are so damn irrational about this.

    Libertarians are just as irrational on this as the left.

    They're more anti cop than the left is because the left are only anti cop when the cops aren't enforcing their agenda. The rhetoric from the LP is almost exclusively hate.

    Sometimes I want to see cops completely removed from these crime ridden areas just to see if we get the paradise and freedom than the left and LP thinks we will get.

    I bet it doesn't happen.

    Yes, the right does tend to defend cops too much.

    I'm sick of all of our political parties to be honest.
    While I’m willing to come up with compromises, thinking directionally, I’m about as hardcore libertarian as it gets, if one wants to talk in principles. Here’s my thoughts on Daunte Wright.

    I can’t think of any good reason why we waste cops’ time on enforcing things like the expired registration on his car. Some other service could easily note that they’re expired and mail a fine.

    And I really can’t think of any good reason why an air freshener hanging from the rear view should be illegal, nor that police should have to waste their time enforcing such a stupid thing.

    I can, however, think of two bad reasons. One, it gives agents of the government all kinds of excuses to stop anyone and snoop around for other things they may have done wrong, including in the past by running your information. Two, levying taxes, er, fines.

    In a world where anything can happen when you confront a citizen with an armed agent of the law, we ought to realize that whether it’s a bad reaction by the citizen or cop, a mistake, poor protocol or training, whatever it is, someone may die as a result. So perhaps we should have a really good reason for these interactions, and an expired sticker and air freshener ain’t it.

    Notice for being “anti-cop,” I haven’t even yet criticized the cop, and with these changes it never would have happened.

    I’m not sure what the equivalent would be of a doctor in surgery making a split-second decision and grabbing the wrong tool which accidentally kills the patient, but I can guarantee no one would suggest the doctor should be preemptively immune from liability for possible negligence.

    In fact, such liability acts a signal and incentive to remove habitual negligence from doctoring. A doctor who continually draws legitimate lawsuits would eventually be uninsurable. There’s no reason we couldn’t expect the same of police.

    As far as the individual cop, this could easily be an honest, once in a lifetime mistake. But the way PDs and police unions work, we’d never know if this person deserves another shot after some retraining or should never, ever be an officer again due to habitual mistakes with devastating consequences. That stuff is kept from the public.

    We, as citizens, should know this. It’s good for us. And it’s good for policing as a whole.


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    Quote Originally Posted by lovemachine97(Version 2) View Post
    While I’m willing to come up with compromises, thinking directionally, I’m about as hardcore libertarian as it gets, if one wants to talk in principles. Here’s my thoughts on Daunte Wright.

    I can’t think of any good reason why we waste cops’ time on enforcing things like the expired registration on his car. Some other service could easily note that they’re expired and mail a fine.

    And I really can’t think of any good reason why an air freshener hanging from the rear view should be illegal, nor that police should have to waste their time enforcing such a stupid thing.

    I can, however, think of two bad reasons. One, it gives agents of the government all kinds of excuses to stop anyone and snoop around for other things they may have done wrong, including in the past by running your information. Two, levying taxes, er, fines.

    In a world where anything can happen when you confront a citizen with an armed agent of the law, we ought to realize that whether it’s a bad reaction by the citizen or cop, a mistake, poor protocol or training, whatever it is, someone may die as a result. So perhaps we should have a really good reason for these interactions, and an expired sticker and air freshener ain’t it.

    Notice for being “anti-cop,” I haven’t even yet criticized the cop, and with these changes it never would have happened.

    I’m not sure what the equivalent would be of a doctor in surgery making a split-second decision and grabbing the wrong tool which accidentally kills the patient, but I can guarantee no one would suggest the doctor should be preemptively immune from liability for possible negligence.

    In fact, such liability acts a signal and incentive to remove habitual negligence from doctoring. A doctor who continually draws legitimate lawsuits would eventually be uninsurable. There’s no reason we couldn’t expect the same of police.

    As far as the individual cop, this could easily be an honest, once in a lifetime mistake. But the way PDs and police unions work, we’d never know if this person deserves another shot after some retraining or should never, ever be an officer again due to habitual mistakes with devastating consequences. That stuff is kept from the public.

    We, as citizens, should know this. It’s good for us. And it’s good for policing as a whole.


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    Tinted windows. For some reason they're deemed no good for everybody but law enforcement.

    Go figure. We actually have dumb ass laws for regulating shit like that.

    Not too dark now. You may not be able to see through it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaboChris View Post
    Tinted windows. For some reason they're deemed no good for everybody but law enforcement.

    Go figure. We actually have dumb ass laws for regulating shit like that.

    Not too dark now. You may not be able to see through it.
    Don’t walk into the crosswalk after the little white guy disappears. Illegal!


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