Still Ray's Fault?

[acs]

Like many on the board, I've conveniently vilified Ray Daniels as one of the main reasons VH fell apart.

I was listening to Moving Pictures yesterday by Rush. I started thinking about what a long, functional career that band has had with Ray Daniels. After all the embarrassing and just plain idiotic stuff VH has done over the past few years (sans Ray Daniels), it got to to thinking:

Is he really a contributor to the VH-debacle, or just a convenient scape-goat?

I mean here's a guy that's managed one of the most down-to-earth and stable groups in rock history. Why would Geddy, Alex, and Neil associate themselved with him for this long unless he was a quality guy?

I just wonder if he's gotten undo shit, just b/c we can help explain away EVH's behavior and its negative impact on VH -- and in turn, make ourselves feel better.

Just b/c Ray went away, doesn't mean VH got functional.

Thoughts?

acs

[vhrocker]

Fuck Ray Daniels and his broke dick!!!

[DoHalen5150]

The three dudes in rush seem like they have no ego problems, and understand what they need to get done for their fans.

[Bad to the Bone]

Ray did alot of things that were just plain old wrong when he was involved with the band. I don't think it was a coincidence that everything fell apart after he got involveed.

[belikemike]

I just saw the title and didn't read the post, but I'd say the answer is yes -- it must be Ray's fault for whatever this thread is about.

[chefcraig]

The difference with regard to the managing of Rush and Van Halen may have much to do with family. Daniels was a mere kid when he joined up with Rush, as a naive young gig promoter. He learned the industry on the job so to speak, and more or less grew with the band.

The Van Halen situation was already in place when Daniels signed on, along with many of it's inherant problems. The real villain in this mess were the Van Halens themselves, who pretty much blamed Daniels after the fact for doing precisely what they told him to do in the first place.

This isn't the first act of shameless face-saving the brothers are guilty of, and certainly it will not be the last. Or hasn't anyone ever noticed that when Ed says that someone is great (or a soulmate), it can be read as the kiss of death, meaning that their employment is soon to come to an end, and he can thus begin bad-mouthing them?

The Van Halen brothers are little more than a pair of flakey, overgrown adolescents. As a result, anyone representing them finds themselves in the unfortunate, uncomfortable and unenviable roles of nanny and paid apologist.

Would you want the job?

[AT]

It's all about the chemistry--and the Danniels/VH mixture was too much a mess of personalities. If you've read the portions of Sammy's unpublished book about Ray and the VH breakup, indeed the manager used some very sly and manipulative techniques to turn parties against one another. Even if Sam was exaggerating, most of what he said checks out. And what we know of Ed and Al is they need guidance and have often turned to their management for it; Sam has always had a keen sense of business. So you could say the breakdown of VH was accelerated and flamed by Ray Danniels, and VH has failed to have decent leadership since. I think Ed Leffler was such a hero to VH because of his ability to keep everyone on the same page, manage affairs, and keep things moving forward. They've needed someone like that since Leffler died in '93.

[Otis5150]

The Van Halen situation was already in place when Daniels signed on, along with many of it's inherant problems. The real villain in this mess were the Van Halens themselves, who pretty much blamed Daniels after the fact for doing precisely what they told him to do in the first place.

I started to sway this way after reading a few of Neil Peart's books, where he describes Daniels as a good friend and manager. Let's face it, Ed has a history of blaming others (Dave, Sam, Mike, etc.) for the bands problems; when he was probably the most responsible party. I don't think Daniels is as bad as they've made him out to be and, in the end, Ed and Al could have fired him whenever they wanted to if he was really that evil. To some extent they're either lying, delusional, stupid or a combination of all three.

[Dave's Dreidel]

It's all about skipping out on taking responsibility. Can't be Ed and Al's fault, must be Sam, Dave, Mike, Ray, etc. Just like Ed's chain smoking didn't cause his cancer, it was the guitar picks!

[Otis5150]

It's all about skipping out on taking responsibility. Can't be Ed and Al's fault, must be Sam, Dave, Mike, Ray, etc. Just like Ed's chain smoking didn't cause his cancer, it was the guitar picks!

Exactly. I'm not saying Ed (or Al) is completely responsible, but Daniels does make a convenient scapegoat, doesn't he?

[Dave's Dreidel]

It is just like at any place of employment, the ex employee gets all the blame. We have a guy who use to work for us that still gets blamed weekly for shit, and he hasn't been here for six months. Just human nature.

[Cooler5150]

This certainly isn't the craziest post I've ever read. I think the boys definitely had their hands in the destruction of the band...it certainly wasn't ALL Ray's fault. Last I checked, these guys were humans, not puppets. Then Sam's unreleased book sure didn't help Ray's case. However, Ray did plant many of the seeds in the bros' heads that lead to some awfully self destructive moves.

The interesting thing I've always thought about everything that happened in those years was how Sammy seems to get off as completely innocent, when in many interviews (not with just Ed, Al, or Ray) people talk about Sammy having a poor work ethic. And this was BEFORE the "Twister" chaos. There is an interview with an engineer on this site somewhere and the guy says maybe you'd get a couple hours of work from Sammy a day during the "Balance" recordings, then he would take off for dinner or something. And I think it shows in the lyrics on that album. "Balance" is a wonderfully produced, and powerful musical album, but many of the lyrics are just beyond cheese. "Feelin'" is such a rocking song, and the lyrics just absolutely ruin it for me. I could go on more about that, but, whatever.

Then there is also the YEARS of Sam being ridiculously stubborn about not singing DLR era tunes in concert. That had to be a growing tension as well.

Anyways, I think EVERYBODY had their hand in VH going down after '95. Not just Ray. The brothers are big time guilty too, and my overall point here is I think Sam is a bit more guilty than many believe as well. Maybe good old Mike might be the only completely innocent dude here.

[FORD]

Rush is the exception in Dannielsland. He's destroyed every other band he touched. Van Hagar, Van HALEN 1996, VDIII, Extreme, Queensryche. I'm sure there are more.

But as slimy of a bastard as he is, he didn't make Eddie an alcoholic. And that's the OTHER long term problem in Van Halen.

[broken combs]

But as slimy of a bastard as he is, he didn't make Eddie an alcoholic. And that's the OTHER long term problem in Van Halen.[/QUOTE]



This is not meant to slam Eddie, but sadly this is a true statement FORD.