A Rothfan's perspective regarding the "flip flopping" and "hypocritical" accusations

[MAX]

K,

Yet another rantola from moi.

First of all, my intentions are to be civil and respectful as per Brett's request. Also, this is in no way personal, it's just an expression of my opinions along with those of a few others of which I've recently discussed the subject.

Secondly, I really do and completely understand the disappointment felt by the people of whom this post is directed. I felt the same way when the 2004 stuff happened with Hag, the misfire of 2000 and the debacle of 1996. Hence, I really do feel your pain of not having your collective heros of the band i.e. Sammy and Mikey involved anymore cos we've felt that way for many years now about Roth. However, the pendulum has swung the other way, the tides have changed and this time in our favor. Again and I'll reitterate, I do understand why you feel cheated but believe me, I've been on that end for the better part of a decade.

With that being said, here's my question and long winded *as you all go "ughhhhh" * list of complaints and grievances...

How long are the likes of VS, Greenpaw and Co. going to continue with this charade until they feel validated? How much whining, spinning this scenerio and twisting our words to your liking until you guys will be happy? I mean I keep reading you dudes saying and pinning the label of "flip flopper" and on and on and on just cos we've accepted and are BEYOND fine with the fact that MA's been 86'ed from Van Halen and most importantly actually thrilled that Dave's onboard.

You all keep claiming that us hardcore Dave fans would never "accept" anything short of a "reunion of all four original members?" Truth be known, I think almost everyone both always and naturally assumed that if/when CVH were to reconveine that Anthony would've been automatically included, I mean it was second nature, a given and nobody gave it a second thought that he wouldn't be involved. With that being said, I don't EVER recall ANYONE (Hardcore Davefans) making a big deal about Michael Anthony prior to this?

I know I've never given it a thought, again, I just always assumed that he'd be included. Regardless, the vast majority of "Dave or the Gravers" have always and only considered Dave fronting the band VAN HALEN as the "long awaited reunion." These current circumstances were never thought about nor considered. Now that we're in the here and now and MA is excluded, you've found out that we don't care. It's all about Dave as it's always been and you guys can't stand it for some bizarre reason? Seriously, like you really thought we'd ever not support Dave cos Anthony's absent? Again, it's a "what have you done for me lately?" scenerio. When or why should either/both David Lee Roth or his fanbase be utterly disgusted or uninterested cos of Anthony? When has he (MA) EVER gone out of his way fully supporting Dave? Fact is, NEVER and he has his own reasons and that's fine. So WHY ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH should Dave forfeit this opportunity just cos of Mike? Save the "cos of sheer principle" angle cos we all know it doesn't apply.

Honestly, I don't think this question nor this scenerio has ever actually been put on the table prior for any of us Rothfolks to even answer? I don't ever recall someone saying "If all of them got together accept MA, would you still go or support it?" prior to the current situation? So and again, this "flip flop" crap is just that C-R-A-P!!! The only real "flip flopping" I've witnessed is that of Eddymon. As for the rest of us like FORD, DG, VV, Loons or myself, I think it's your way of venting cos you're pissed that we're all MORE THAN HAPPY about Dave getting another shot!!! Infact, Loons has ALWAYS ripped on Anthony and Hagar's friendship and has ALWAYS referred to MA as "Mullet Anthony!!!" Doesn't sound like someone who really cares about the sanctity of what you all have collectively decided amongst yourselves that we (Rothfans) refer to as "Classic Van Halen" does it? Another example is referring to JMJ as yet another on your infamous "Flip Flop" blacklisting of what you call "real fans." Who in the heck are you dudes to ultimately decide what defines the "real Van Halen fan" populus? I mean that guy (JMJ) has attended every single incarnation of VH that he's been able to see and he's made no "but's" about it, whether it be Hagar, Cherone or now Wolfgang. So how is he now a "flip flopper" just cos he also is going to attend this tour just has he has every other? In my defense, I think the ONLY thing that I've EVER said regarding some sort of "boycott" or a "sellout" which would make me stay away. That would've been IF Dave actually committed to a tour with BOTH he and the Hag sharing lead singer duties. Now that's definitely where I'd have drawn the line and said "FUCK NO!!!" to attending a performance.

Again, I do understand why you're pissed at EVH cos in a way he is doing EXACTLY what he said he wouldn't do in 1996. That being "Fucking off like KI$$." However, how many times has he eaten his words prior to this? Example, in '96 he said he wouldn't do a tour with unless there was a new record, even though they had two new songs on the BOV1. Yet, in 2004 he did EXACTLY the same thing by recording three new songs on anther "Greatest Hits" and touring behind it. No new album but same old fucking story. Yet, you guys approved back then cos it was with Hagar. Only difference now is it's Roth and you don't like it at all. That's the truth and the bottom line. Sure you're pissed and upset about Anthony but that's just in addition to and not instead of... In my opinion, I thionk the aforementioned accusers of said "flip flopping" are just spinning their wheels on beyond a moot point. See, I have you pegged.

Again, nobody has yet answered my question as to why this incarnation is not "Van Halen?" The media seems to think it is as do casual fans of whom WILL INFACT make up the majority of antendees and ticketholders for the upcoming shows. Seriously, I want the question answered. If various lead singer changes were still okie dokie by you guys to retain the Van Halen name, then WHY is replacing the bassplayer not?

In conclusion and in all honesty, if any of us were to have been asked the question dating as far back as 1996 "Would you support a Dave fronted Van Halen Tour if Michael Anthony were to be excluded?" I truly believe our collective answers would've still been a resounding "YES!!!"

[Brett]

Max everyone is a hypocrite in their own way, you guys included. Everyone is a "sheep" in their own way too.

[wham bam will rock]

For the love of God........

[MAX]

Max everyone is a hypocrite in their own way, you guys included. Everyone is a "sheep" in their own way too.

You know what Brett? That's an answer I can both respect, somewhat agree with and truly appreciate.

That's why I didn't include you in my manifesto. lol

[I Coulda Hada VH]

Max,

Why do you care so much what other people think about you and the other "Dave or the Gravers"? You're never going to change anybody's mind about it, so why bother trying?

For the record, I'm a Dave-era fan, and I think it sucks that Michael Anthony is not part of this tour. It really does take away from what could have been one of the greatest "reunions" in rock-and-roll history. It's certainly the one I've been looking forward to more than any other. That being said, I'll still attend because I want to see Eddie and Dave onstage together again. I just wish that a 52 year old man who has been through as much as Eddie has would grow up already. It really is sad and pathetic.

[MAX]

Max,

Why do you care so much what other people think about you and the other "Dave or the Gravers"? You're never going to change anybody's mind about it, so why bother trying?

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. Where did I once say that, just curious?

I'm simply adressing the endless accusations of "flip flopping" by certain peeps. In some cases, it's completely valid but in many others, it's not.

For the record, I'm a Dave-era fan, and I think it sucks that Michael Anthony is not part of this tour. It really does take away from what could have been one of the greatest "reunions" in rock-and-roll history. It's certainly the one I've been looking forward to more than any other. That being said, I'll still attend because I want to see Eddie and Dave onstage together again. I just wish that a 52 year old man who has been through as much as Eddie has would grow up already. It really is sad and pathetic.

I respect your opinions and at the end of the day, this is a message board (as most of us know by now. lol) I felt like venting a little bit and also thought if I presented this angle in a certain way, a somewhat decent, respectful and civil discussion could come out of it.

[Delighted Romeo]

This is a long one, Max, so let me just pick a couple of sections to respond to.

Secondly, I really do and completely understand the disappointment felt by the people of whom this post is directed. I felt the same way when the 2004 stuff happened with Hag, the misfire of 2000 and the debacle of 1996. Hence, I really do feel your pain of not having your collective heros of the band i.e. Sammy and Mikey involved anymore cos we've felt that way for many years now about Roth. However, the pendulum has swung the other way, the tides have changed and this time in our favor. Again and I'll reitterate, I do understand why you feel cheated but believe me, I've been on that end for the better part of a decade.

That's bull. I don't consider SH and MA "my collective heroes of the band." EVH has always been my favorite member, until very recently (and maybe he'll regain that status at some point in the future). I'm simply pissed about the way MA was shown the door, that a 15-year-old kid is taking his place, and that the full CVH lineup won't be reunited. It's that simple. You can write your version of Tolstoy's "War and Peace" all you want and try to analyze this situation differently but you're really reading into it too much if you think it's mostly about SH and MA (actually, for me, it has absolutely nothing to do with SH, though obviously it has something to do with MA).

How long are the likes of VS, Greenpaw and Co. going to continue with this charade until they feel validated? How much whining, spinning this scenerio and twisting our words to your liking until you guys will be happy? I mean I keep reading you dudes saying and pinning the label of "flip flopper" and on and on and on just cos we've accepted and are BEYOND fine with the fact that MA's been 86'ed from Van Halen and most importantly actually thrilled that Dave's onboard.

You all keep claiming that us hardcore Dave fans would never "accept" anything short of a "reunion of all four original members?" Truth be known, I think almost everyone both always and naturally assumed that if/when CVH were to reconveine that Anthony would've been automatically included, I mean it was second nature, a given and nobody gave it a second thought that he wouldn't be involved. With that being said, I don't EVER recall ANYONE (Hardcore Davefans) making a big deal about Michael Anthony prior to this?

I clearly remember a lot of posts from hardcore DLR fans here and on the ol' Pleasure Dome talking about the beauty of the original lineup, how it was greater than the sum of its parts because they complimented each other so well, and that a true reunion should take place someday. Now, you and the rest of you are accepting a kid on bass who at his age should be delivering your morning newspaper or mowing your lawn.

Again, nobody has yet answered my question as to why this incarnation is not "Van Halen?" The media seems to think it is as do casual fans of whom WILL INFACT make up the majority of antendees and ticketholders for the upcoming shows. Seriously, I want the question answered. If various lead singer changes were still okie dokie by you guys to retain the Van Halen name, then WHY is replacing the bassplayer not?

Because it's a 15-year-old kid with only a few months experience on the instrument and it prevents a true reunion of the actual musicians who play all the music on the first 6 albums. I also didn't care for SH singing CVH tunes in concert either for that same reason. What casual fans or the media thinks means nothing to me nor should it mean anything to anybody here. They should make up their own minds, as I'm not going to tell people what they should think about this. However, I am going to tell people what I think about this.

In conclusion and in all honesty, if any of us were to have been asked the question dating as far back as 1996 "Would you support a Dave fronted Van Halen Tour if Michael Anthony were to be excluded?" I truly believe our collective answers would've still been a resounding "YES!!!"

Not mine. I'm a purist and I've been waiting for the original CVH lineup for 22 years. This isn't it, and it pisses me off that EVH & Co. are screwing it up once again, like they did in '96.

[MAX]

This is a long one, Max, so let me just pick a couple of sections to respond to.

DR,

I've always respected your opinion and enjoyed your posts on here. I still can't believe it's been so many years? With that being said, I was in NO WAY including nor accusing you as one of the aforementioned people of whom I was referring in my post.

I understand what your ultimate beef is regarding the bassist. It's the age factor along with MA's layoff. Seriously, I do get it.

However and at this stage of the game for me, I just don't care. I rarely if ever go to concerts anymore. Yet, I'm not going to lie and say that I'm not excited about attending this one. I never thought it would take place in any incarnation and now it is. Might not be the perfect scenerio but I'll still take it.

Also, it's been cool reading your posts again. It's refreshing to actually read well thought out posts that happen to be long. That's been lacking on here for sometime now, IMHO.

[Delighted Romeo]

DR,

I've always respected your opinion and enjoyed your posts on here. I still can't believe it's been so many years? With that being said, I was in NO WAY including nor accusing you as one of the aforementioned people of whom I was referring in my post.

I understand what your ultimate beef is regarding the bassist. It's the age factor along with MA's layoff. Seriously, I do get it.

However and at this stage of the game for me, I just don't care. I rarely if ever go to concerts anymore. Yet, I'm not going to lie and say that I'm not excited about attending this one. I never thought it would take place in any incarnation and now it is. Might not be the perfect scenerio but I'll still take it.

Also, it's been cool reading your posts again. It's refreshing to actually read well thought out posts that happen to be long. That's been lacking on here for sometime now, IMHO.

Thanks for the kind words, Max. Also, as expected from you, a thoughtful and reasonable response.

I'm not going to lie to anyone here -- I'm frustrated and aggravated at EVH right now for this happening the way that it has. The treatment of MA is disgusting and the nepotism is equally as disgusting. This could've been a glorious year that would've capped the career of the band Van Halen perfectly. Instead, I can't bring myself to spend the money to go see this tour. Yes, I went in '04 and was let down by the shows I saw (mostly because of EVH). It was the first time I ever went to a VH concert -- and that even includes with Cherone in '98 -- and was thoroughly disappointed.

Anyway, I hope you and others that are going to go to this enjoy it. I truly do.

[diamondsgirl]

In conclusion and in all honesty, if any of us were to have been asked the question dating as far back as 1996 "Would you support a Dave fronted Van Halen Tour if Michael Anthony were to be excluded?" I truly believe our collective answers would've still been a resounding "YES!!!"

Absolutely, Max. The question about a Roth fronted VH w/o MA was never asked, and some people just ASSUMED our answer would be the same as theirs. And now because we don't agree with them, we are being TOLD that we are flip flops.

For the record, I have not pissed on all other incarnations of VH. I only pissed on incarnations of VH that do not include Dave.

Nice post Maximus.

[Brett]

There are a TON of people who said VH was only, Eddie, Mike, Al, and Dave who are in support of this. They are flip-flops and hypocrites. It's as simple as that. I'm not going to look back to figure out who said what, but there is a shitload of fans who have said that on all these boards.

Also, people who have called fans of any version of VH without Dave "sheep", who are suddenly on board with this fiasco are themselves "sheep." And there's a lot of these phony fuckers running around too.

[knuck]

Fuck. This whole time I thought they were talking about footwear!

"In footwear and fashion, flip-flops are a kind of flat, backless sandal that consist of a flat sole held on the foot by a u-shaped strap that passes between the first (big) and second toes and around either side of the foot, attached to the sole at three points, commonly known as the thong strap. They appear to have been developed out of traditional Japanese woven or wooden soled sandals (i.e., zori and setta) in New Zealand."

[Delighted Romeo]

There are a TON of people who said VH was only, Eddie, Mike, Al, and Dave who are in support of this. They are flip-flops and hypocrites. It's as simple as that. I'm not going to look back to figure out who said what, but there is a shitload of fans who have said that on all these boards.

Also, people who have called fans of any version of VH without Dave "sheep", who are suddenly on board with this fiasco are themselves "sheep." And there's a lot of these phony fuckers running around too.

Exactly. A lot of the hardcore DLR fans are conveniently rewriting history. Personally, I don't really care. I understand their loyalty to the DLR era, as it was the better era (though I like both eras). But how about a little intellectual honesty, huh?!?

As for the "sheep" references that FORD has always liked to toss around to demean fans who actually liked the SH era, that was just projection at its finest. I certainly didn't follow anybody in the band -- even EVH -- with the same vigor that FORD & Co. followed DLR. Once again, I don't really care that they revered DLR this much, but enough of the freakin' "sheep" stupidity.

[ETRIGAN]

I'm not reading that long assed shit........

[JMJ]

we're all assholes

the bottom line is this

people have their perception of what constitutes van halen and how things "should be handled".

let's get real here folks. this ain't a perfect world, and none of that is ever going to happen.

it's basically all about selfishness for us fans when you look deep into it. we've been given such wonderful music, shows, and memories over the years, that we want more and we want it the way we prefer it. it's just all selfishness. ed and dave are no different. this is how ed wants it and it's how he's gonna do it. has he been a tool in recent years? sure. have many fans been tools in recent years? sure.

everyone involved in the circle of van halen are selfish assholes at one point or another. whether yer playin the music or payin the ticket prices, everybody wants somethin a certain way.

the certain ways stopped in '96 and have varied ever since. people need to get over it. it is what it is.

you have a few choices-

accept what is currently

not accept what is and embrace what memories and music you have been given

walk away and say fuck it

in the end, no one is really gonna care where you side. the only burning question is can you accept what you as a fan have been given over the years? if you can't, it's your own selfishness you have to answer to