If You Don't Like VHIII Please Read...

[broken9500]

Since I've been on these boards, I've read and chimed in on the whole VHIII thing as far as true fans/casual fans, the effects it may or may not have had on EVH's ego, the notion of whether or not Ed was smart or justified in his approach, the marketing of the album, all the politics etc. It's a dead and decomposed horse. I, and most likely most of you, am quite tired of the whole debate. That's not my interest in starting yet another VHIII thread. My interest is this: (and it is mostly targeted toward those of you who have expressed such passionate DISsatisfaction with the record)

What's wrong with it? Again, we've been over the esoteric faults many people see in it. We've been over things like "it's an EVH solo record and he shouldn't have labeled as a Van Halen record." We've been over the whole "it 'sounds crappy because he insisted on producing/mixing it himself." We've been over the whole "Alex and Mike didn't have enough input" aspect. I completely acknowledge everyone's opinion on these and similar aspects. What I'm curious about is what's wrong with the material itself?

I'll set it up by telling you how I feel about the songs and I invite you guys to take turns shooting me down and pointing out things that perhaps I'm not noticing or perhaps even ignoring.

There's really only 2 spots I skip past at this point: Neworld and Primary; not because they are "bad" or "unenjoyable" but because I tend to skip past all the "snippets" and brief instrumentals on all the VH records at this point.

Track by track real quickly, here's my take:

Without You: man, as soon as I heard this song when it debuted on the radio I dropped what I was doing and called my buddy and our jaws were on the floor. This is an awesome track.
One I Want-at this point might be my favourite song on the record.
From Afar - I was blown away...the panning, the lyrical concept, the whole thing.
Dirty Water Dog - I love the shifts in Gary's dynamics and delivery and the contrast between verse and chorus...
Once - I find this to be perhaps the most "interesting" song in the VH catalog. It seems we were all immediately reminded of Phil Collins and such, and though I think that's valid, it seems to be so much more...
Fire in the Hole - wow...this is one of those tunes that really drives home how fucking bad ass EVH is as rhythm guitar player, another tune that really blows me away with the chorus and the transitions...
Josephina - blows me away...I love Gary’s lyric, his delivery and I'm blown away by Ed's arrangement
Year to the Day - VH's finest moment? Might be...Gary shines and I adore the musical arrangement...
Ballot or the Bullet - a very ambitious song lyrically, but it's one of the very few moments where I think Gary could have done better by holding back a bit...but a very cool, very tight song.
HMSI – First of all, I got no problem with Ed singing. Yes it’s “crappy” in some respects, but by this token so are the voices of Springsteen, Cocker, Tom Waits, Janis Joplin and Bob Dylan. I actually think it’s a compelling song with powerful words. That may or may not be why many of us listen to VH but it doesn’t negate the poetry of it.

So anyway, I know it doesn't "sound like VH" and all that...but seriously, as an album, is this not incredibly strong collection of material? I was, and still am dying to hear the follow up.

My judgment is that many people had a “block” or a “wall” which prevented them from enjoying it because of all the "off-album" dynamics i.e.: new singer, Ed approaching the album as an auteur, Gary's approach and contribution, and hell, let's be honest, his very existence.

But really, speaking strictly about the songs, why do so many of you hate this record so much?

[LLFHS]

Squalen....you're on.

[Scotty]

Gary Cherone recorded with Van Halen? When did Sammy leave the band?

[Van Squalen]

If you're tired of the whole debate, admitting the presence of the dead and decomposed horse, why are you starting yet another thread extolling the merits of III? BTW....comparing the tone of Eddie Van Halen's vocals to Joplin, Cocker, or Dylan is beyond ridiculous and belies your naivete in the arena of rock.


That being said....

[Duke]

Thank you, VS.

And im amazed how quickly you are alerted and respond to these III outbreaks.

You must have spies everywhere.

[Greenpaw]

I don't like it because the songs aren't good. It's that simple. Just my opinion, I didn't have any walls blocking me from liking it, that's ridiculous. If anything, I gave this turd far more chances than it should have received because it's Van Halen. I have ZERO problem with Gary's voice, he just didn't work well with VH IMO. His stage antics and such are "out there" to say the least, but that has nothing to do with the album.

Why do want us to convince you to see or hear things different? If you like it, great. If not that's ok too, it doesn't make anyone more or less of a fan. It's just opinions and taste.

[broken9500]

If you're tired of the whole debate, admitting the presence of the dead and decomposed horse, why are you starting yet another thread extolling the merits of III?

Because I've never really benefitted from people's opinion on the songs themselves and I'm genuinely interested in people's opinions...It seems whenever the subject is brought up, the only things we talk about concern everything behind the scenes: Ed's attempts at producing, the "more than words guy" being forced upon VH, the "clarity of the album," the tour, the idea that Ed should have "eased" his audience through the transition by touring first and then releasing an album...you know, all of that kind of stuff, I seldom hear anyone talk about the songs themselves, and I feel that is the real shame here, that the record itself and the music on it, was lost in the shuffle....

[Van Squalen]

III is like a weed that needs immediate attention with a blast of extra strength Round Up.

Funny how nobody ever starts any threads on the underrated merits of Women and Children First.

[Van Squalen]

Because I've never really benefitted from people's opinion on the songs themselves and I'm genuinely interested in people's opinions...It seems whenever the subject is brought up, the only things we talk about concern everything behind the scenes: Ed's attempts at producing, the "more than words guy" being forced upon VH, the "clarity of the album," the tour, the idea that Ed should have "eased" his audience through the transition by touring first and then releasing an album...you know, all of that kind of stuff, I seldom hear anyone talk about the songs themselves, and I feel that is the real shame here, that the record itself and the music on it, was lost in the shuffle....

You're way behind. It's all been discussed. Trust us. Do a search on the plethora of III threads if you don't believe it.

Ford said it best. Chaotic horseshit. The music sucks. Bad lyrics, poor tone, lackluster production, lack of flow, Ed's heavy handed and misguided attempt at late nineties Nu-Metal. Lame beyond lame. Decidedly anti-Halen. Plus...ya know. Mike didn't play on it. The More than Words guy who was young enough to be Al's kid put on a Freddie Mercury Lite show during the tour, silk shirts and reach-around dingleberry scratches and all.

But hey...if you like it, super duper, trooper. It's Ed, all right. It just ain't Van Halen. And despite your fears we've been hasty and too harsh, it's been given a fair shake and due consideration, honest crisscross applesauce. That was eight years ago.

[mannyroth]

I didn't have any preconceived bias towards VH3. I thought anything would be better than Hagar, and I was actually psyched when I heard Without You.

I ran out to buy it, and I've probably listened to it three times since then.

Sorry, it just doesn't do anything for me.

[It's Mike]

You're way behind. It's all been discussed. Trust us. Do a search on the plethora of III threads if you don't believe it.

Ford said it best. Chaotic horseshit. The music sucks. Bad lyrics, poor tone, lackluster production, lack of flow, Ed's heavy handed and misguided attempt at late nineties Nu-Metal. Lame beyond lame. Decidedly anti-Halen. Plus...ya know. Mike didn't play on it. The More than Words guy who was young enough to be Al's kid put on a Freddie Mercury Lite show during the tour, silk shirts and reach-around dingleberry scratches and all.

But hey...if you like it, super duper, trooper. It's Ed, all right. It just ain't Van Halen. And despite your fears we've been hasty and too harsh, it's been given a fair shake and due consideration, honest crisscross applesauce. That was eight years ago.

I've always been of the opinion that VH3 never really had a chance. Whether of not you like the album or not, it was destined for failure. Before VH3 there were 3 classes of VH fans. Them being:
(1) the classic 6 pack fans that never really any part of Sammy.
(2) the Sammy fans that thought that Van Halen began with 5150 and didn't like Dave's antics
(3) people that were Dave fans but appreiciated what Sammy brought to the table even though they never wanted the band to break up with Dave.

The fans in category 1 were so pissed after the MTV debacle that they weren't gonna give anything a chance. Actually, I'm convinced that Dave could have sang on VH3 and none of them would have even noticed.

The fans in category 2 treated Gary the way the fans in category 1 treated Sammy, with disdain. They didn't want their band to break up and took it out on Gary. Interesting these same people who criticized the Dave fans for not giving Sammy a chance weren't willing to give Gary a chance.

The fans in category 3 were very much confused. Most of them didn't want to see another singer, they thought 2 was fine but were willing to give it a chance.

So basically Gary only had a chance to impresss 1/3 of their fan base and had to do this while putting up with the fans in category 1 & 2 ripping on the album (most of whom probably didn't even buy the thing) without giving it much of a chance. To those who gave him a chance, some liked the album - some didn't. Most that saw him live, at the very least appreciated his willingness to sing tunes from the whole catalogue (something others were too scared to try). He was truly appreciative of the people showing up and paying money to see the band. I only wish that feeling carried over to the reunion tour. Say what you want about Gary but he was never drunk out of his mind on stage. He was never more concerned with selling tequilla than performing. He actually remembered the words to the damn songs.

Sorry about the long-ass intro to the topic.

As for VH3. I liked most of it, thought the production on it sucked (much like it did on 0U812 in my opinion) but that overall it wasn't a terrible album by any means. It had some strong tracks like Without You & Dirty Water Dog and it had some crap (How Many Say I).

[Van Squalen]

Nah, it wasn't about Dave or Sam. Not really. Van Halen fans were used to switch-ups. Although the '96 Dave BOV tease and subsequent fallout probably left a more bitter taste in the fans' mouths than anything that had before.

The debacle of III wasn't Gary's fault. It was Ed's.

As unlikely as it seems, both the fans and Warner Brothers would've accepted a third incarnation of Van Halen if the album rawked ballz. But it didn't. That's what happens when you're bitter about Lead Singer Disease and you produce your own album without the benefit of a balancing force like a good producer or a willful, tempering vocalist of acclaimed accord.

III failed because it was a bad album, plain and simple.

[loveevhsince79]

Squal probably one of the few things we disagree on. While not my favorite, I can't totally write it off. It had so much potential, the music was incredible and inspired but as you said, needed the molding hand of a strong singer and producer. I know you hate it, hell, the world knows VS hates III, LOL but I still hear the brillance of what could have been. It's why I would be excited to hear Edward out on his own doing small venues.

[Van Squalen]

There's no denying Edward exhibits some brilliant axe work on III. I've never claimed otherwise. What VH album doesn't showcase his brilliance in some way, at least, during a few tracks, in a jaw-droppingly awesome fashion?

But it just wasn't enough. Proving once again that Van Halen the living, breathing, successful entity is not Edward Van Halen all by his lonesome, that Van Halen IS the sum of its parts, singers, bassists, drummers, producers, and fanbase included.

For the record...again...I'm also on the bandwagon of supporters that would go out in a big way to see an unplugged club circuit tour of Edward sittin' on a stool jamming away, maybe a guest vocalist here and there. I'd prefer Van Halen, the big bad arena rock warhorse...but Eddie solo in an intimate venue would be jim dandy.

[It's Mike]

. That's what happens when you're bitter about Lead Singer Disease and you produce your own album without the benefit of a balancing force like a good producer or a willful, tempering vocalist of acclaimed accord.

Gary had a much better resume as a singer than Sammy when he joined the band. When he joined Halen he was the "More than Words guy" - when Sammy joined the band he was the guy who wore weird yellow clothes who was only in the band because he knew Eddie's mechanic.

If 5150 was released in 1996 - it would have bombed.