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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmy812 View Post
    Yeah, people have often speculated as to why he didn't take the easier shot on Houston. Difficult to say what someone was thinking (especially a nutcase like Oswald), but I think there were too many eyes facing the TSBD at that time. When the motorcade went by, onto Elm, no one was focused on the building at that time. More eyes were facing the knoll at the time of the shooting...not a wise time to assassinate a POTUS from that vantage point.
    I always found this to be interesting.

    Did anybody witness Oswald in the window? You’d think somebody around the bottom of the TSBD would have looked up?

    Not saying this means anything one way or another, but I don’t recall hearing about any eyewitnesses stating they saw somebody shooting from the 6th floor.


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    I'm not going to claim to know what someone's head looks like after taking a head shot like that from personal experience, but there are many experts who have demonstrated that the top of Kennedy's head blowing off is actually the result of fluid dynamics where the bullet cracked Kennedy's skull upon entry, the bullet exited the front, then as the essentially liquified contents of the bullet's path sloshed around (this is in a mere fraction of second for time reference) it caused the pressure to build forcing the material out at the weakest point which happened to be near the entry wound. I've seen a demonstration of this on TV before using a dummy and ballistics gel so I would imagine it's floating around on the internets somewhere.

    The real problem with putting a shooter at the front (or anywhere else for that matter), is the entire idea of setting up Oswald as a patsy becomes impossible. Consider the fact that someone would have to take the shot in the middle of a crowd of people almost ensuring eyewitnesses that could identify them which means you need numerous people in the plaza to shuttle people away from the scene. The biggest problem is the idea of any missing bullet or fragments that would come from that shot. You would have to make sure the "real" shooter doesn't miss or else the whole thing is blown (or miss the entry point...what if he misses slightly on the angle and shoots Kennedy in the chest?) That "real" bullet would have to end up in Kennedy's brain and NOT exit, because if it did you have the same problem as if he missed: you need people deployed on scene immediately to find the bullet and hide the evidence plus stage all of the competing evidence.

    This is why all of the conspiracies become so convoluted, because the logistics are impossible to fit together to where they make sense. As has been pointed out multiple times, Oswald had his job in the TSBD before Kennedy's team ever scheduled a visit to Dallas. There was no route planned at the time which means they either had potential patsies working in jobs in high rises along multiple routes in multiple cities OR someone on the inside of Kennedy's personal political team AND the Secret Service were in on it and were able to push things in those directions without drawing attention to themselves. Both stretch credibility on their face, but are basically impossible upon closer inspection anyway. The whole operation would have been null if Kennedy insisted on the hard top (he actually did the opposite). It would have also been ruined if there was rain that day forcing them to put the top on.

    There were dozens of things that had to go right for Oswald to kill Kennedy, but there are basically thousands of things that would have to go right for them to pull off a conspiracy and to keep it hidden.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MF5150 View Post
    I always found this to be interesting.

    Did anybody witness Oswald in the window? You’d think somebody around the bottom of the TSBD would have looked up?

    Not saying this means anything one way or another, but I don’t recall hearing about any eyewitnesses stating they saw somebody shooting from the 6th floor.
    A few witnesses described seeing someone in that window. Some saw a man there without a gun, some saw a man there with a gun, some from down below in the street saw a barrel sticking out of the window, one saw a barrel being withdrawn from the window. Different testimony from different people who looked at the window at different times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MF5150 View Post
    I always found this to be interesting.

    Did anybody witness Oswald in the window? You’d think somebody around the bottom of the TSBD would have looked up?

    Not saying this means anything one way or another, but I don’t recall hearing about any eyewitnesses stating they saw somebody shooting from the 6th floor.


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    Yes, there were multiple eye witnesses of a barrel sticking out the window of the 6th floor. Included in the Warren Report. Once again those accounts are in the 27 Volumes, and take some searching.
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    Quote Originally Posted by evhintexas View Post
    Sixth floor shot was a little harder than a turkey shoot. The issue is the accuracy and speed which those shots were dispatched. The fence at the grassy knoll is a dead on shot as well. My belief is that the back of the head was blown out...that says it all..shot from the front. Yes, I have been there multiple times and put myself in the shooter's possible locations.

    Many recreations by expert marksman using the same rifle (not the actual but the same make & model) and scope, distance angle and weather conditions have recreated those shots. Some failed (the ones you hear most about, and other succeeded, even got the shots off in less time than the Zapruder film timeline. They all said it wasn’t a particularly difficult shot, and not one that required a the most skill to pull off. Of course these successful recreations are not the ones that get sensationalized.

    Also the autopsy photos do not show the back of this skull being blown off, but rather more of right side and top cranial area.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmy812 View Post
    It seems strange that they would set up their "fake" shooter, or patsy, in a 6th floor window BEHIND the motorcade, and then have the "real" shooter at the more noticeable lower trajectory in FRONT of the POTUS. Or maybe it was just a coincidence that two people randomly decided to assassinate Kennedy in the same small area of Dealey Plaza within a couple seconds of each other.

    I know it's lame and I'm in the minority on this, but I'm sticking with the official story.
    Probably more of a basic second team idea. Run two teams. Pretty basic. A shits the bed. And B closes the deal. Only closers get coffee. Just a theory. I wouldn't know. Out.
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    Let's say take a soccer ball and kick it right in the face of some douchebag. Said db's head is going to snap back. Thus, a front head shot. Yes, I will agree that some modern shit will just blow the dog shit out of a head. Just explode upon shot. Mist and goodness everywhere. I think the money shot was from the front. Just the way his head snapped back and his shit flew back all over the back of the car. You guys will need to remind me if it was windy that day. Serious question. Out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by track 5 View Post
    Let's say take a soccer ball and kick it right in the face of some douchebag. Said db's head is going to snap back. Thus, a front head shot. Yes, I will agree that some modern shit will just blow the dog shit out of a head. Just explode upon shot. Mist and goodness everywhere. I think the money shot was from the front. Just the way his head snapped back and his shit flew back all over the back of the car. You guys will need to remind me if it was windy that day. Serious question. Out.
    LOL...I don't know about the wind that day. But the car was moving forward and his head does move forward before going back. The top right portion of his skull is blown out and that force also contributed to his head going back...and to the left.
    I'm not sure the soccer ball analogy works in this scenario.

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    Nobody really knows what actually happened that day.

    I personally believe some people did know (probably dead by now), but that's just my opinion. I'm certainly not a conspiracy theorist when it comes to daily life, but with respect to this day in history...there's questions surrounding it that lead me to believe it was the work of more than just one nut-job.


    At the end of the day though, both sides of the debate have theories to base their beliefs around. That's all they/we have.

    Those who believe Oswald acted alone believe a theory.
    Those who believe a rogue/black element of the government staged a coup d'état, believe a theory.

    So, when I see people dismiss "conspiracy" theories or theorists as straight nutters (and there are plenty, I admit) across the board simply because they feel as though there are questions that haven't been answered I find it somewhat humorous because they jus believe a different theory proposed by the Government.
    Last edited by MF5150; 12.01.20 at 08:19 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MF5150 View Post
    Nobody really knows what actually happened that day.

    I personally believe some people did know (probably dead by now), but that's just my opinion. I'm certainly not a conspiracy theorist when it comes to daily life, but with respect to this day in history...there's questions surrounding it that lead me to believe it was the work of more than just one nut-job.


    At the end of the day though, both sides of the debate have theories to base their beliefs around. That's all they/we have.

    Those who believe Oswald acted alone believe a theory.
    Those who believe a rogue/black element of the government staged a coup d'état, believe a theory.

    So, when I see people dismiss "conspiracy" theories or theorists as straight nutters (and there are plenty, I admit) across the board simply because they feel as though there are questions that haven't been answered I find it somewhat humorous because they jus believe a different theory proposed by the Government.
    It's one thing to throw "theories" out there, but when there's no logic behind them that's where they lose me. All of these theories that put more than one gunman out there or put LHO as a patsy who didn't fire the shots, etc., put so many enormous holes right under the surface that can't be filled that they just don't stand up to reason. Allegations of planted bullets, switched rifles, government agencies being involved....the list goes on....all require a detachment from everyday reality that, while entertaining to think about in an Ancient Aliens like way, are clearly not based on what we know about the world and human behavior. These Machiavellian conspiracies (and conspiracies they are, because anything that isn't LHO as the lone gunman is a conspiracy) just don't add up when all of the evidence is put against them.

    For example, going back to the "pristine" (or not) bullet debate, let's say the bullet was planted in Parkland on the stretcher where it was found. Who planted it? The area was secured by the Secret Service when they entered, so it was either a Parkland employee or it was the Secret Service itself. To say otherwise assumes the perps knew that in the confusion they could easily enter scene right under the nose of both parties, plant evidence, and get out. Not likely to say the least, so we're back to a Parkland employee or the Secret Service. Either is strange and unlikely on it's surface, but here's the bigger question: how did anyone know they had to plant the bullet in the first place? Remember, this is mere minutes after the shooting, so we're to believe that the perpetrators knew where the bullets would enter and exit, destroy any of the real evidence that points to them in full view of the Secret Service in the car and the Dallas police in Dealey Plaza, and then plant this counter-narrative evidence that had been prepped ahead of time in a spot where no one would see them do it and in a manner that could easily be explained by science later on?

    That's the problem with every single piece of "evidence" that gets thrown out there by these alternate theories. They just don't stand up to reason.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MF5150 View Post
    Nobody really knows what actually happened that day.

    I personally believe some people did know (probably dead by now), but that's just my opinion. I'm certainly not a conspiracy theorist when it comes to daily life, but with respect to this day in history...there's questions surrounding it that lead me to believe it was the work of more than just one nut-job.


    At the end of the day though, both sides of the debate have theories to base their beliefs around. That's all they/we have.

    Those who believe Oswald acted alone believe a theory.
    Those who believe a rogue/black element of the government staged a coup d'état, believe a theory.

    So, when I see people dismiss "conspiracy" theories or theorists as straight nutters (and there are plenty, I admit) across the board simply because they feel as though there are questions that haven't been answered I find it somewhat humorous because they jus believe a different theory proposed by the Government.
    I completely understand your sentiment here. I believe this thread, for better or worse, is proof that we can have a thoughtful discussion about this tragedy, with only minor flare ups of frustration.

    I believe that they figured out what happened that day and got it just about all right. But I wouldn't posit the Government's story as just a "theory." You can criticize it all you want, but it is based on evidence, research, eyewitness testimony, scientific analysis, countless investigations, etc. The conspiracists have a wide variety of "theories" to cull from, some of them reasonable inquiries, a LOT of them ridiculous garbage. (c'mon, the limo drive shot him?! that's garbage and I will dismiss things like that).

    Unfortunately it seems as though minds are made up and nothing will change them. Like I've said before, I was heavily influenced by Stone's movie back in the 90's. And I started off in the conspiracists' camp. But it seemed like they were just asking questions about every single aspect of the case, not accepting anything as it "officially" happened. Of course, there's nothing wrong with asking questions. But isn't there a limit? lol And, of course, so many things happened that day and the days after that only fall into the conspiracists laps. The biggest one being Ruby killing Oswald, IMO.

    I'm not sure why it fascinates me to discuss this case, especially if I believe the official story. I should automatically be dismissing conspiracy theories as bullshit and moving on. But for some strange reason I feel intrigued by them and compelled to debate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmy812 View Post

    I'm not sure why it fascinates me to discuss this case, especially if I believe the official story. I should automatically be dismissing conspiracy theories as bullshit and moving on. But for some strange reason I feel intrigued by them and compelled to debate.
    I agree with this completely. I don't begrudge anyone wanting to discuss these theories because I've already changed my mind on this subject once (as have you), why can't it happen again? I enjoy exercising the intellectual muscles reading and thinking about this stuff, so I find enjoyment from it in an odd way
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmy812 View Post
    I completely understand your sentiment here. I believe this thread, for better or worse, is proof that we can have a thoughtful discussion about this tragedy, with only minor flare ups of frustration.

    I believe that they figured out what happened that day and got it just about all right. But I wouldn't posit the Government's story as just a "theory." You can criticize it all you want, but it is based on evidence, research, eyewitness testimony, scientific analysis, countless investigations, etc. The conspiracists have a wide variety of "theories" to cull from, some of them reasonable inquiries, a LOT of them ridiculous garbage. (c'mon, the limo drive shot him?! that's garbage and I will dismiss things like that).

    Unfortunately it seems as though minds are made up and nothing will change them. Like I've said before, I was heavily influenced by Stone's movie back in the 90's. And I started off in the conspiracists' camp. But it seemed like they were just asking questions about every single aspect of the case, not accepting anything as it "officially" happened. Of course, there's nothing wrong with asking questions. But isn't there a limit? lol And, of course, so many things happened that day and the days after that only fall into the conspiracists laps. The biggest one being Ruby killing Oswald, IMO.

    I'm not sure why it fascinates me to discuss this case, especially if I believe the official story. I should automatically be dismissing conspiracy theories as bullshit and moving on. But for some strange reason I feel intrigued by them and compelled to debate.
    Yeah, the sewer/limo driver/umbrella man theories are bullshit. And like the insane 9/11 conspiracies, they cloud the actual questions and valid arguments people have.

    But there are facts surrounding what happened that day, that raise questions and point to a possible shadier reality.

    I believe men like Fletcher Prouty. E. Howard Hunt (aka one of the hobos).

    The one thing conspiracy theorists love to say is, “Well, how did everybody who was involved keep their mouth shut for 50 years?”

    And that’s definitely a valid point, until you dismiss anybody and everybody who does come forward with information. Who needed to come out and admit the Government played a part in it?

    LBJ? Would that have convinced people?


    I also find it amusing that the peoples’ faith in Government is dodgy at best yet when the Government conducts an investigation into the murder of the President, it wraps everything up for them.

    That being said, I believe it’s been polled that those who believe the “official” story are far fewer than those who believe that the official story was inaccurate and possibly a cover-up.


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    Last edited by MF5150; 12.01.20 at 10:51 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MF5150 View Post
    Yeah, the sewer/limo driver/umbrella man theories are bullshit.

    But the there are facts surrounding what happened that day, that raise questions and point to a possible shadier reality.

    I believe men like Fletcher Prouty. E. Howard Hunt (aka one of the hobos).

    The one thing conspiracy theorists love to say is, “Well, how did everybody who was involved keep their mouth shut for 50 years?”

    And that’s definitely a valid point, until you dismiss anybody and everybody who does come forward with information. Who needed to come out and admit the Government played a part in it?

    LBJ? Would that have convinced people?


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    Quote Originally Posted by I Coulda Hada VH View Post
    LBJ? LeBron James wasn't even born until 12/30/84.
    The Decision was a conspiracy.


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