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  1. #76
    Atomic Punk Bad to the Bone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Destructo3 View Post
    I agree and feel the same about Humans Being. Some really good songs came out of the tension that started with Balance. I don’t think those songs are likely as good with Sam having his usual complete lyric control. What writer doesn’t get stale to some degree at some point? Frankly I love the tweaking Ed did with those songs.

    I also don’t 100% buy Sam’s version of events on how things went down. It’s never that black and white. With Ed being an insecure long term addict, I place more weight on Sam’s version but people are kidding themselves if they don’t think Sam had major spin going to make sure public opinion didn’t go against him.
    well, Sam says openly in his book that he was an asshole at times.

    I THINK 95 was almost the perfect year for the Hagar era to fall apart, it's like everything that could go wrong went wrong. I THINK Ed-if he was sober-was as you said very insecure and I think Ray Daniels kind of played into that. he didn't like Sam and Sam didn't like him and maybe Ray did nothing nefarious but I think he had Ed and Al's ear and maybe between the 3 of them things that were considered "little" in the past suddenly got huge.

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  3. #77
    Baluchitherium
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    Edward since 5150 was built through the Cherone album consistently claimed more creative real estate. That rubbed Dave wrong and I'm sure rubbed Sam wrong as it would rub any creative partner the wrong way when the rules of the partnership begin to change unilaterally. I'm sure that was a process from FUCK till the end that just grew and pressure just builds. The one sided rule changes tend to end any relationship marriage, business, or creative partnerships. Who is guilty of what in the end well I'm sure a little truth in both versions and each has crimes the other is guilty of but really those specifics by that point are over. Trust vaporizes when dynamics change without consent and once trust is gone in a partnership everything is an issue and everyone stops listening or assumes the worse about the other.

    Judge a partnership on when the trust exists the mashing and death of the partnership do not define the relationship although often what each feels the most. Often the best relationships are when people are extremely passionate, those also often have the ugliest endings
    Last edited by Darrin Stephens; 01.24.20 at 04:37 AM.

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  5. #78
    Atomic Punk Bad to the Bone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin Stephens View Post
    Edward since 5150 was built through the Cherone album consistently claimed more creative real estate. That rubbed Dave wrong and I'm sure rubbed Sam wrong as it would rub any creative partner the wrong way when the rules of the partnership begin to change unilaterally. I'm sure that was a process from FUCK till the end that just grew and pressure just builds. The one sided rule changes tend to end any relationship marriage, business, or creative partnerships. Who is guilty of what in the end well I'm sure a little truth in both versions and each has crimes the other is guilty of but really those specifics by that point are over. Trust vaporizes when dynamics change without consent and once trust is gone in a partnership everything is an issue and everyone stops listening or assumes the worse about the other.

    Judge a partnership on when the trust exists the mashing and death of the partnership do not define the relationship although often what each feels the most. Often the best relationships are when people are extremely passionate, those also often have the ugliest endings
    this is a good post.

    I want to word this right but I think almost all of the bands problems with Sam stem from Ed's insecurities and people-probably unintentionally playing off of them.

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  7. #79
    Eruption Simon Ribeiro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I Coulda Hada VH View Post
    Thanks for the link.

    I dig that tune. Not Van hagar's best stuff, not their worst.
    TT: "Wow, you can play acoustic guitar?"
    EVH: "Sure. What's the difference? It's got six strings... It's a guitar!" - 31.12.1978
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    "Van Halen is entertainment. Van Halen is entertainment delivered at maximum impact, but it's entertainment." DLR

  8. #80
    Baluchitherium
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad to the Bone View Post
    this is a good post.

    I want to word this right but I think almost all of the bands problems with Sam stem from Ed's insecurities and people-probably unintentionally playing off of them.
    Also, Edward is an introvert. So they have issues with Sam business wise beyond the Cabo situation. I have no knowledge how legit any of that is. My own guess based on having done deals with Sam who is fairly straight forward is even the business stuff stems not from anything someone else did. The issue is the gap between the deal and whatever unspoken expectations or interpretation is Ed's head that likely never got relayed so yeah never likely gets addressed. Management stuff surrounds both big endings in the band history. Strong management helps in getting whatever in an introvert's head out. It does not for long enough time you just a big gap and it just decays. We often want to pin point one big dramatic event but sometimes insecurity and bad communication combined w ego and hurt feelings shit just blows up

  9. #81
    Atomic Punk Bad to the Bone's Avatar
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    I still think them being pissed at Sam over Cabo is stupid. they were in, they bailed. he didn't and he lost just as much money as they had up to that point (if memory serves me correctly, they were all equal partners but Sam might have had more of an initial investment so he might have actually lost more money). I don't think he did anything to screw with them. Now obviously that's not how they see it.
    I'm not contesting the part about them having issues with Sam's business outside of Cabo but that seems even more silly to me. It's like Sam being pissed he didn't get a cut of Ed's deal with Music Man back in the early 90's.
    Like on the 04 tour with Ed and Al being pissed that some venues were selling Sam's tequila and mike's hot sauce. it's almost like Ed couldn't handle them having success without him.

  10. #82
    Baluchitherium
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad to the Bone View Post
    I still think them being pissed at Sam over Cabo is stupid. they were in, they bailed. he didn't and he lost just as much money as they had up to that point (if memory serves me correctly, they were all equal partners but Sam might have had more of an initial investment so he might have actually lost more money). I don't think he did anything to screw with them. Now obviously that's not how they see it.
    I'm not contesting the part about them having issues with Sam's business outside of Cabo but that seems even more silly to me. It's like Sam being pissed he didn't get a cut of Ed's deal with Music Man back in the early 90's.
    Like on the 04 tour with Ed and Al being pissed that some venues were selling Sam's tequila and mike's hot sauce. it's almost like Ed couldn't handle them having success without him.
    Yeah, was not trying to find fault at all, just often the crimes someone commits in the mind of the introvert are stuff the convicted never really know about till after the fact so how can they be guilty. The brothers have not handled business well pre Azoff from my viewpoint

  11. #83
    Atomic Punk Bad to the Bone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin Stephens View Post
    Also, Edward is an introvert. So they have issues with Sam business wise beyond the Cabo situation. I have no knowledge how legit any of that is. My own guess based on having done deals with Sam who is fairly straight forward is even the business stuff stems not from anything someone else did. The issue is the gap between the deal and whatever unspoken expectations or interpretation is Ed's head that likely never got relayed so yeah never likely gets addressed. Management stuff surrounds both big endings in the band history. Strong management helps in getting whatever in an introvert's head out. It does not for long enough time you just a big gap and it just decays. We often want to pin point one big dramatic event but sometimes insecurity and bad communication combined w ego and hurt feelings shit just blows up
    and I totally agree with the last part, it wasn't one thing that caused the rift between Sam and Ed, it was a lot of things and once there was a communication breakdown everything started to fall apart. Like I said I think in some instances the issues were considered small in the past because they had management that kept things in check. Once that stopped the small things got bigger and bigger until everything just exploded.

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  13. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad to the Bone View Post
    well, Sam says openly in his book that he was an asshole at times.

    I THINK 95 was almost the perfect year for the Hagar era to fall apart, it's like everything that could go wrong went wrong. I THINK Ed-if he was sober-was as you said very insecure and I think Ray Daniels kind of played into that. he didn't like Sam and Sam didn't like him and maybe Ray did nothing nefarious but I think he had Ed and Al's ear and maybe between the 3 of them things that were considered "little" in the past suddenly got huge.
    Agree and good points.

    Daniels is really an interesting figure to me. He was central to one of the most stable, functional bands ever. Although that may have been more about the members of Rush than him. However, it seems pretty clear he was really destructive in his role with Van Halen. Just the fact he was able to negotiate himself into the deal he cut is fascinating. It’s not a Credence Clearwater bad deal, but it’s up there...

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  15. #85
    Atomic Punk I Coulda Hada VH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Squalen View Post
    He doesn't despise him.

    He just prefers the Sammy era.
    No, he despises DLR.

    As you well know, I prefer the Dave era, but I don't have anything negative to say about Sammy. I will always appreciate what he brought to my favorite band from 1986 to 1996.
    "It's so lonely at the top because it's so crowded at the bottom" - Diamond David Lee Roth

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  17. #86
    Good Enough Pacfanweb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin Stephens View Post
    Edward since 5150 was built through the Cherone album consistently claimed more creative real estate. That rubbed Dave wrong and I'm sure rubbed Sam wrong as it would rub any creative partner the wrong way when the rules of the partnership begin to change unilaterally. I'm sure that was a process from FUCK till the end that just grew and pressure just builds. The one sided rule changes tend to end any relationship marriage, business, or creative partnerships. Who is guilty of what in the end well I'm sure a little truth in both versions and each has crimes the other is guilty of but really those specifics by that point are over. Trust vaporizes when dynamics change without consent and once trust is gone in a partnership everything is an issue and everyone stops listening or assumes the worse about the other.

    Judge a partnership on when the trust exists the mashing and death of the partnership do not define the relationship although often what each feels the most. Often the best relationships are when people are extremely passionate, those also often have the ugliest endings
    You're dead on here, I think.

    The problem is, if you have listened to what EVH has said throughout the years, he wanted more and more control of the band.
    He slowly got it. And once he had full control...we have seen essentially nothing. For over 20 years now, 3 new Sam songs, 1 album with Dave, and 4 tours, only 2 of which were very long. (04 and 07)

    And a whole bunch of nothing otherwise.

    This is a classic example of a creative type of introvert who thinks he wants control, but in reality cannot handle actually HAVING it.

    He NEEDED Dave or Sam to be making decisions along with a strong manager.

    Remember, this is the guy who basically sucks at giving interviews (by his own word). He isn't "chatty". He is an introvert. They don't make good leaders. He needs a Type A person like Dave/Sam who can do all that, and let him sit back and do his thing that we all love to hear him do.
    I asked a ref if he could give me a technical foul for thinking bad things about him. He said, of course not. I said, well, I think you stink. And he gave me a technical. You can't trust em. -
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  19. #87
    Good Enough Pacfanweb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad to the Bone View Post
    I still think them being pissed at Sam over Cabo is stupid. they were in, they bailed. he didn't and he lost just as much money as they had up to that point (if memory serves me correctly, they were all equal partners but Sam might have had more of an initial investment so he might have actually lost more money). I don't think he did anything to screw with them. Now obviously that's not how they see it.
    I'm not contesting the part about them having issues with Sam's business outside of Cabo but that seems even more silly to me. It's like Sam being pissed he didn't get a cut of Ed's deal with Music Man back in the early 90's.
    Like on the 04 tour with Ed and Al being pissed that some venues were selling Sam's tequila and mike's hot sauce. it's almost like Ed couldn't handle them having success without him.
    Exactly. Yet it's okay if Ed is selling sneakers, other trinkets, plus guitars and amps and equipment.
    I asked a ref if he could give me a technical foul for thinking bad things about him. He said, of course not. I said, well, I think you stink. And he gave me a technical. You can't trust em. -
    Jimmy V

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  21. #88
    Atomic Punk I Coulda Hada VH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pacfanweb View Post
    Exactly. Yet it's okay if Ed is selling sneakers, other trinkets, plus guitars and amps and equipment.
    Wait … So it's NOT all about Ed???
    "It's so lonely at the top because it's so crowded at the bottom" - Diamond David Lee Roth

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  22. #89
    Forum Frontman fudd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad to the Bone View Post
    I still think them being pissed at Sam over Cabo is stupid. they were in, they bailed. he didn't and he lost just as much money as they had up to that point (if memory serves me correctly, they were all equal partners but Sam might have had more of an initial investment so he might have actually lost more money). I don't think he did anything to screw with them. Now obviously that's not how they see it.
    I'm not contesting the part about them having issues with Sam's business outside of Cabo but that seems even more silly to me. It's like Sam being pissed he didn't get a cut of Ed's deal with Music Man back in the early 90's.
    Like on the 04 tour with Ed and Al being pissed that some venues were selling Sam's tequila and mike's hot sauce. it's almost like Ed couldn't handle them having success without him.
    I get why they feel he screwed them. He put all his time after VH into that place. But Ed has a family and when “soberish” didn’t want to be out and about. Plus, I’m pretty sure with what was going on with Daniels at the time, they wanted a clean break with Sammy. And it backfired.


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  24. #90
    Sinner's Swing! BlindtotheWorld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fudd View Post
    I get why they feel he screwed them. He put all his time after VH into that place. But Ed has a family and when “soberish” didn’t want to be out and about. Plus, I’m pretty sure with what was going on with Daniels at the time, they wanted a clean break with Sammy. And it backfired.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Are the Cabo Wabo Cantinas actually all that lucrative? I mean, it's not some huge global chain like Hard Rock or something. If I recall, the Tequila came afterwards and never had any involvement from the VH brothers. Am I right here? If so, what's there to be that mad about? They don't have ownership stake in some themed restaurant/night club in Mexico?
    "Problem is Van Halen doesn't miss you. Or me. Or any of us." - Little Dreamer

    "So, Dave's in the same boat as the rest of planet Earth. He's no longer in a band that doesn't even exist." - I Coulda Hada VH

 

 

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