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  1. #31
    Atomic Punk Van Squalen's Avatar
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    Come on, man. What was missing, was Eddie not self sabotaging. You know this.

  2. #32
    Atomic Punk ziggysmalls's Avatar
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    10.17.19 @ 11:27 AM
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    I think there are a lot of similarities with the bands at their careers however there is a point where Metallica made right while VH shit the bed.

    Both fan bases have division. Some within the fan base think there are two different bands. With Metallica its Cliff Burton and anything after. With VH, its CVH and Van Hagar. Obviously most fans love both eras but some have a preference of which one. Some are very vocal. Black Album is really their 5150. The album where people said the sound changed. Became fare more commercial but had more appeal to the ladies.

    You have two people who run the band for good and bad. James and Lars are Eddie and Alex. In control of the brand and while Metalica is far more fan friendly, put out music, etc they had a period of time with very questionable decisions. The nicest guy in the band doesn't have really any say in the band. Kirk and Mike.

    Kirk like Eddie have soloing crutches. Unfortunately the wah has been incorporated but Eddie had the sustainer love for a few years

    Both came on the scene as being the anti-establishment with rock but by the time their most commercial albums came along, they were part of the typical rock scene. Lost their roots so to speak

    The big difference with Metallica is that they toured everywhere and kept the momentum going. VH simply stopped doing anything after Gary and also never concentrated on other parts of the world. Even in their heyday. So once they lost the American mojo, they lost it everywhere. I also think Metallica's music like AC/DC and Maiden is better to be received globally.

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  4. #33
    Atomic Punk Dave's Dreidel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Squalen View Post
    Uh. Pretty easy.

    Metallica DID stuff. Albums, tours, communication with fanbase.

    VH did virtually Jack Shit.

    Nada becomes obsolete pretty quick.
    This. Not hard to figure it out. One tours and releases product, the other doesn't. One interacts with their fans, the other doesn't.
    If I don't respond to you it means I have you on ignore, which means you are a douchenozzle.

    Emperor Brett - "I can't believe you guys are analyzing song-by-song Van Halen III? What next, analyzing the script of Stroker Ace looking for some shred of Citizen Kane?"

    David Lee Roth did the impossible. He made Van Halen better. Deal with it!

    A man's rights rests in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box

    Hurricane Halen - Let's all gingery touch our sword tips!!!

  5. #34
    Hot For Teacher
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    08.31.19 @ 07:46 AM
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    VH was lazy long before they basically stopped in 98. When Dave left, Sam had to take over driving the band forward as the brothers were too drunk/lazy. Sam did this but in a more relaxed way. So instead of one record a year we got one record every 2 or 3 yrs. They stopped touring outside of the US for 8 or 9 yrs which killed their worldwide popularity, they had just started to try a build this up again by touring worldwide in 93 and 95 but then Sam was fired.

    As has been said if they band toured and promoted more I think they would have been bigger. Things like timing and image also come into it. Metallica fitted in with the angst of the grunge movement better than VH because VH had a reputation as a party band.

    If Dave had never left, I'd wager they would have been a stadium band from 85 to 90 but the grunge movement may have hurt their popularity more if you look at what happened to Dave's solo career. Image wise Dave became a relic overnight in 91.

    Overall their laziness meant they weren't bigger but I think the likes of U2 and Metallica were driven at certain points in their careers to be the biggest band in the world and they achieved it, VH never had that drive, they were content just being a big band.

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  7. #35
    Sinner's Swing! EJC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by japeape View Post
    What stunned me, in KK Downing's biography, was how much more Maiden sold
    in comparison to Priest.

    Growing up in the 80's, JP was, to me, a fucking huge band.
    I saw the shirts everywhere in school, and the songs were on the radio.

    But KK laments that they never had their Rod Smallwood, or they missed prime
    opportunities with strategic touring & merchandising.

    He talks about Maiden taking what they started, and becoming way more succesfull
    with it.
    My best friend from High School and I discuss this often.

    Here's what it comes down to for me:

    Watching some of the older Priest stuff, it just seemed a little corny to me with all the leather wristbands with spikes and shit. Maiden seemed to just "look" better. Like our older brothers or something. Priest always seemed to go too overboard with the leather and shit.

    Musically, I just think Maiden's song writing was much more complex and melodic. Smith/Murray are extremely under-rated (as most guys in 2-lead gtr bands are).

    Not knocking Priest, but to me its just my first image if you say "Judas Priest" is leather and spikes and what not, where you say "Iron Maiden" to me, and my first thought is extremely well written, and even better produced melodic metal, world class musicianship, thought-provoking lyrics. Especially the Somewhere in Time / 7th Son era. Sonically, that shit was absolutely amazing.

    I never felt that with anything Priest put out.. And I hated their production. The guitars always sounded like they were using $40 DOD Distortion Pedals in the studio. I like Point of Entry to a certain extent, and Screaming for Vengeance, but that's about it. I own every CD Maiden put out up until Brave New World in like 2000.

    Just my thoughts on the 2 bands....
    ~E
    Last edited by EJC; 08.31.19 at 08:02 AM.

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  9. #36
    Sinner's Swing! EJC's Avatar
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    EXAMPLE'S BOTH FROM 1986:


    TOTALY COOL: Dressed like dudes you went to school with. Jean, t-shirts, shorts, sneakers...



    COMPLETE LEATHER CORNINESS:
    Last edited by EJC; 08.31.19 at 08:17 AM.

  10. #37
    Atomic Punk japeape's Avatar
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    10.17.19 @ 08:35 PM
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    I think Priest looked cool in the Unleashed in the East days.

    That was Heavy Metal personified.

    I think both Maiden & JP are exceptional writers.
    Maiden may be a bit more proggy & multi dimensional, musically, but both
    bands had multiple great songs & albums.

    Maiden also had "Eddie," which was a cash cow as far as merch goes.
    Graver, Walking Ed, refugee from CVH & proud tone chaser...

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  12. #38
    Atomic Punk I Coulda Hada VH's Avatar
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    10.17.19 @ 06:28 PM
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    Judas Priest were awesome at the US Festival in 1983 …

    "It's so lonely at the top because it's so crowded at the bottom" - Diamond David Lee Roth

    "The truth sounds like hate to those who hate the truth" - Todd Wagner

    "Women and Children First ... The REAL Van Halen III"

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  14. #39
    Good Enough ScottyBHarris's Avatar
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    10.14.19 @ 02:59 PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJC View Post
    EXAMPLE'S BOTH FROM 1986:


    TOTALY COOL: Dressed like dudes you went to school with. Jean, t-shirts, shorts, sneakers...



    COMPLETE LEATHER CORNINESS:
    From what I recall, the leather and spikes were Halford's way of telling the world he was gay (I’ve heard Hallford say his in several interviews).

    Also, songs like “Turbo Lover” took on a different meaning when people learned Hallford was gay, not that there is anything wrong with that in today’s world. But back then, being gay had a negative impact to the average Metal fan. Just my opinion and observation. I know several of my friends mentioned that is was a deal breaker for them back then (in the late 80s early 90s).

    I was way more of a Priest fan than a Maiden fan back then. Loved me some Breaking The Law, Electric Eye, You've got Another a thing Comin', The Ripper
    Last edited by ScottyBHarris; 08.31.19 at 08:52 AM.

  15. #40
    Hot For Teacher Legoman's Avatar
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    10.06.19 @ 01:28 PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by ziggysmalls View Post
    The big difference with Metallica is that they toured everywhere and kept the momentum going. VH simply stopped doing anything after Gary and also never concentrated on other parts of the world. Even in their heyday. So once they lost the American mojo, they lost it everywhere. I also think Metallica's music like AC/DC and Maiden is better to be received globally.
    Quote Originally Posted by EDDIEVH View Post
    VH was lazy long before they basically stopped in 98. When Dave left, Sam had to take over driving the band forward as the brothers were too drunk/lazy. Sam did this but in a more relaxed way. So instead of one record a year we got one record every 2 or 3 yrs. They stopped touring outside of the US for 8 or 9 yrs which killed their worldwide popularity, they had just started to try a build this up again by touring worldwide in 93 and 95 but then Sam was fired.

    As has been said if they band toured and promoted more I think they would have been bigger. Things like timing and image also come into it. Metallica fitted in with the angst of the grunge movement better than VH because VH had a reputation as a party band.

    If Dave had never left, I'd wager they would have been a stadium band from 85 to 90 but the grunge movement may have hurt their popularity more if you look at what happened to Dave's solo career. Image wise Dave became a relic overnight in 91.

    Overall their laziness meant they weren't bigger but I think the likes of U2 and Metallica were driven at certain points in their careers to be the biggest band in the world and they achieved it, VH never had that drive, they were content just being a big band.
    Two great posts.

    I think the point about not touring outside North America is important; also, Dave leaving the band too. VH with Dave - and the anti-love song attitude that he had - might have kept and expanded the band’s teen fan base in a way that they weren’t able to do, at least to the same degree, with Sammy. (Whether Dave would have adapted within VH to survive the grunge onslaught is open to question, though. I HATED the over-the-top way he and his bands dressed from EEAS onwards.)

    For me, VH has always transcended the rock genre and had all of the ‘right stuff’ to be considered one of the very biggest bands in the world. The fact that Metallica (and G’n R and Bon Jovi and Foo Fighters) were all able to make that jump to the top of the mountain and Van Halen didn’t, used to bug the shit out of me. Not so much now - I’m older and less of a fanboy - though, being a longtime fan, the questions still arise in my mind. Thanks for helping to straighten them out for me.

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  17. #41
    Good Enough Pacfanweb's Avatar
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    10.16.19 @ 06:47 AM
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    I think it's a combination of things, but the biggest reason is work ethic.

    Metallica was (and is) an unstoppable, touring monster.

    VH is not. They'd do an album, do a tour, and that'd be it for a year or so.

    From 1989-1995, Van Halen played 309 shows, nearly all of them in the USA.

    From 1989-1995, Metallica played 526 shows, all over the world. From 96-99 the least they
    played was 52 shows.

    Every. Single. Year. Everywhere.

    Those dudes WORK.

    Meanwhile, Van Halen did one big tour in the 90's (156 shows in 95) and proceeded to blow the biggest reunion opportunity outside of a Zeppelin or Floyd reunion, gave us VH3, and then 6 years of radio silence.

    Go look at the VH tour numbers from about 77-84. It's staggering. Comparable to what Metallica did when they blew up.
    And guess what....that's when VH blew up. When they were actually working.

    Put out an album, tour and promote it. It's a simple concept. Doesn't take that long to make a great album....most of the best albums were done quickly. Then get out there and tour.

    VH didn't do that and Metallica did. It's as simple as that, and IMO that explains probably 90% of the "why" of this question.
    The rest would include "Metallica sold out with the Black Album/Load/Reload", and "The masses of the world finally accepted this type of music". Those things played a part, yes, but without Metallica working their asses off for it, I don't think they blow up like they did.

    Metallica is now doing smaller (# of shows) tours as well, but they still travel the world and they work frequently. Keeps their name out there...they still do very good business on the road, without selling many records.

    That crap Dave likes to say about "Leave 'em wanting more" "Don't come around too often"....that's bullshit. It was always bullshit.
    Dave and VH didn't get big by "not coming 'round too often". They toured every year, a LOT. They came "to your town" every year, sometimes twice.

    They got big by being in your face all the time. Same thing Metallica did. And many other bands.
    Last edited by Pacfanweb; 08.31.19 at 10:13 PM.
    I asked a ref if he could give me a technical foul for thinking bad things about him. He said, of course not. I said, well, I think you stink. And he gave me a technical. You can't trust em. -
    Jimmy V

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  19. #42
    Atomic Punk RRvh1's Avatar
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    I agree that Dave's line "Leave 'em wanting more..." was BS. As has been discussed many times over, VH have pissed away much of their status etc. by the lack of communication, the lack of promotion, lack of later years albums & tours, lack of archival goodies for the fans, etc.

    Metallica (and many/most other top tier bands) have excelled at these things and continue to do so, and the worldwide masses take notice and respond in kind. Hell, even a few former VH members can & should be included, as they are also constantly out there doing/releasing/touring stuff, and engaging with the fans.
    "There's too many people on this basketball that's floating around the sun, who are too afraid to allow themselves to FEEL" - Edward Van Halen
    "Van Halen was never about the singer..." - A very wise fan.
    "Embrace the past. Live in the moment but keep your eyes on the future, and keep on moving forward..." - Richie Sambora

  20. #43
    Baluchitherium Heisenberg's Avatar
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    10.12.19 @ 07:52 AM
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    NOPE, - None of these answers hit the nail from the 🔨 on to the nail.

    (Many previous comments are definetly full of good idea's & valid points, but they fall into the category of " close but no cigar", falling short on the ultimate truth to answer this question.)

    I believe I can spell it out clearly in a simple quick easy to understand explanation in less than 4 paragraphs.

    I know how it is reading these kinda threads here....you'll see a certain username & immediately scroll right past without reading....in my case now...many folks will regognize the username & picture then think to themselves while reading fuck this pisstank jackoff I'm not wasting my time reading this guy's post......& I fully understand & fully agree & acknowledge without prejudice. I can dig it.

    BUT- I want to attempt explaining something I've never noticed anyone else bring up in these kinda rock trivia forum topics.

    SO- I hereby humbly & politely request that you give me a shot & hear out my perspective on this matter.


    OK. Here is my post now.

    Question; - Why did METALLICA surpass VAN HALEN in worldwide popularity.

    Answer; - T-SHIRTS & BAND LOGO!!!!!!

    Not kidding....I know what you are thinking....fuck this guy & his pos opinion....

    BUT- I hereby respectively request please hear me out....& you will see what I'm talking about....

    Remember- The famous MISFITS T- shirt James Hetfield & probably other Metallica members frequently more back in 1986...& subsequent years....

  21. #44
    Baluchitherium Heisenberg's Avatar
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    THAT Misfits T Shirt became a hugely widespread commonly seen pop culture image worn by teenagers all across North America to this very day....since 1986....ever since Metallica was seen wearing the shirt....

    The Green Misfits Face Logo shirt....

    Do you think all those teenagers wearing that shirt have the slightest idea of who The Misfits are.???....

    Hollywood Babylon....Samhain....Glenn Danzig....

    I'd bet most have NO idea at all who Danzig or The Misfits are....they just wear the shirt because they think its " KEWL"...

    They never would of even seen that shirt at all ever if the guys from Metallica never wore it back in 1985 & 1986.

  22. #45
    Baluchitherium Heisenberg's Avatar
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    Metallica- WERE THE catalyst that put that green Misfits T shirt image into pop culture....back in '85/'86...before Cliff Burton died in the bus accident...( RIP)...

    You still now see those shirts....

    NOW- My POINT.....

    IMAGE, LOGO's, & marketing ARE indeed VERY influential when it comes to Pop culture....in this case...pertaining to Rock music bands....VH & Metallica....


    Ever wonder why Anthrax, Megadeath, Exciter, Raven, Slayer, Exodus, .....& countless other heavily promoted heavy metal acts in the mid to late '80's never achieved the heights of popularity of METALLICA....

    It's because METALLICA had the better NAME & LOGO.....

    Simple as that....

    & I'm NOT kidding.....

    Look at Iron Maiden....wonder why they surpassed Judas Priest....it's because of the BAND LOGO, album covers, & t shirt sales.....

 

 

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