Can anyone explain VH and Metallica’s divergent career arc?

[japeape]

Kirk was kind of the sore spot, though his solo's on RTL and AJFA, fit well and, i guess, did the job.

But, for me, James was the crown jewel, almost like EVH, in the sense that i'd never heard
rhythm guitar played like that, with such incredible tone.

The way he muted, the chugs, the incredibly clean, even at warp speed, right hand attack.

And i loved the way he added acoustics, in things like "Fade to Black."

All my ears heard were James & Cliff!

[Rokgtar]

I kid. I don't think an innovative guitarist would have worked in Metallica. Then again, I'm not much of a fan at all.

Kirk played what was necessary. The real power in the band is the rhythm and riffage. And the vocals.

[japeape]

I kid. I don't think an innovative guitarist would have worked in Metallica. Then again, I'm not much of a fan at all.

Kirk played what was necessary. The real power in the band is the rhythm and riffage. And the vocals.

I really liked Mustaine's early soloing in Metallica.

He was so fast & reckless, but hit on some really cool things.
I do think he was far more talented that Kirk, yet Kirk kind of made sense
with his more "color within the lines" approach.

I think they wanted a guy who could play a lead, but not over-step.
The primary thing was that Rhythmic base, which is why James did all the rhythm
guitars on record, straight through AJFA (Possibly, the Black album?)

[Mean Streets]

Not sure on this one. Metallica became far MORE popular when they went away from Metal and more towards Hard Rock. They went to the mainstream... where all the people are at.

Thrash Metal is an outlier. Not the mainstream.

Mainstream farmer bob wasn't listening to this in the 80s....

I beg to differ, at least in the Midwest. In the 80s there was a fascination around Metallica. The band that did 8 minute songs, refused to do music videos, the grave band that made every Midwesterner think they could do it to. I remember wanting to play bass in a band and their prerequisite was I had to know Anesthesia front and back.
Add in the tragic death of Cliff Burton, there was a huge thirst for the release of Justice. Then when they did One, everyone became a Metallica fan.
Plus they were incredibly good live, got the audience pumped, had a great stage, their concerts were an experience. In short, they always wanted to deliver for their fans, sure they made missteps, but that was always their drive.
Sadly, even though I love them, VH has never been driven by wanting to deliver for their fans. They’d hardly know their fans outside of occasionally scrapping off their shoes, except for Dave and Sam, and Mike as well. But Eddie seems to have a distaste for the fans as a necessary evil, and his fellow family band mates seem to carry that as well


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[Van Squalen]

I beg to differ, at least in the Midwest. In the 80s there was a fascination around Metallica. The band that did 8 minute songs, refused to do music videos, the grave band that made every Midwesterner think they could do it to. I remember wanting to play bass in a band and their prerequisite was I had to know Anesthesia front and back.
Add in the tragic death of Cliff Burton, there was a huge thirst for the release of Justice. Then when they did One, everyone became a Metallica fan.
Plus they were incredibly good live, got the audience pumped, had a great stage, their concerts were an experience. In short, they always wanted to deliver for their fans, sure they made missteps, but that was always their drive.
Sadly, even though I love them, VH has never been driven by wanting to deliver for their fans. They’d hardly know their fans outside of occasionally scrapping off their shoes, except for Dave and Sam, and Mike as well. But Eddie seems to have a distaste for the fans as a necessary evil, and his fellow family band mates seem to carry that as well


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Yep.

For better or worse, Metallica, Maiden, and Priest have become all things metal to the mainstream. Really it’s just Metallica and Maiden at this point.

All others are fringe, homage, or godfathered. Ozzy’s kind of his own entity, a genre unto himself.

It’s a dying genre, same as rock. All eras must pass.

[I Coulda Hada VH]

Yep.

For better or worse, Metallica, Maiden, and Priest have become all things metal to the mainstream. Really it’s just Metallica and Maiden at this point.

All others are fringe, homage, or godfathered. Ozzy’s kind of his own entity, a genre unto himself.

It’s a dying genre, same as rock. All eras must pass.

I will never forget this from the Monsters of Rock show in 1988 …

[Sam Vs. Dave]

Can anyone explain VH and Metallica’s divergent career arc?

No, but I CAN explain how to save 20% on your car insurance.

[Van Squalen]

I will never forget this from the Monsters of Rock show in 1988 …

Grrrrr..... my least favorite VH live concert memory.

Fucking Hetfield.

[I Coulda Hada VH]

Grrrrr..... my least favorite VH live concert memory.

Fucking Hetfield.

It was my brother-in-law's first (and last) rock concert. I think he actually got a kick out of it, as well as the huge food fight between the Scorpions' and Van Halen's sets.

[Van Squalen]

It was my brother-in-law's first (and last) rock concert. I think he actually got a kick out of it, as well as the huge food fight between the Scorpions' and Van Halen's sets.

It was more than a food fight. Metal chairs. Blood. TP. Anarchy. On the floor it was bedlam. Fuckin’ stupid.

[I Coulda Hada VH]

It was more than a food fight. Metal chairs. Blood. TP. Anarchy. On the floor it was bedlam. Fuckin’ stupid.

Yeah, I don't miss those rock festivals.

[Van Squalen]

Me either. Fuck em and the horse they rode in on. Dry fuck em.

[japeape]

Yep.

For better or worse, Metallica, Maiden, and Priest have become all things metal to the mainstream. Really it’s just Metallica and Maiden at this point.

All others are fringe, homage, or godfathered. Ozzy’s kind of his own entity, a genre unto himself.

It’s a dying genre, same as rock. All eras must pass.

What stunned me, in KK Downing's biography, was how much more Maiden sold
in comparison to Priest.

Growing up in the 80's, JP was, to me, a fucking huge band.
I saw the shirts everywhere in school, and the songs were on the radio.

But KK laments that they never had their Rod Smallwood, or they missed prime
opportunities with strategic touring & merchandising.

He talks about Maiden taking what they started, and becoming way more succesfull
with it.

[Van Squalen]

What stunned me, in KK Downing's biography, was how much more Maiden sold
in comparison to Priest.

Growing up in the 80's, JP was, to me, a fucking huge band.
I saw the shirts everywhere in school, and the songs were on the radio.

But KK laments that they never had their Rod Smallwood, or they missed prime
opportunities with strategic touring & merchandising.

He talks about Maiden taking what they started, and becoming way more succesfull
with it.

Yeah, Maiden was the godhood for sure. Priest had a loyal following though.

[Legoman]

What stunned me, in KK Downing's biography, was how much more Maiden sold
in comparison to Priest.

Growing up in the 80's, JP was, to me, a fucking huge band.
I saw the shirts everywhere in school, and the songs were on the radio.

But KK laments that they never had their Rod Smallwood, or they missed prime
opportunities with strategic touring & merchandising.

He talks about Maiden taking what they started, and becoming way more succesfull
with it.

It sounds obvious and even naive to say but it seems like a band needs the whole ball of wax: killer music, the right image and attitude, promotion opportunities, effective and innovative management, building a loyal fan base, timing and luck. For JP, maybe the missing ingredient was the right management, though I wonder about their image and whether that could’ve been exploited and magnified for the masses. The thing is, VH had all of these, more so than most bands and more even than Metallica, or so I thought in the ‘80s. I was wrong. The thing is, VH were mainstream by then - i.e. they appealed to the majority - and yet that wasn’t enough to let them make that jump to the next, very highest level. So what was missing? What did Metallica have that VH didn’t? Maybe their image was the easier sell to the teenage masses (how would you rather dress - like Dave or Lars?). Maybe they had the right management - how much bigger would they have been had they a Peter Grant-type of manager, someone they couldn’t intimidate.