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  1. #1456
    Atomic Punk JUNGLE DRUMMER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by It's Mike View Post
    it's an all time line.

    Bird got too much praise during his career in my opinion. I always looked at him vs Magic as the urban vs country, white vs black. You had your guy. And you thought he was the best ever. In the case of Magic you might have been right. In the case of Bird he was an all time great but he was never the best player ever, he was never the best Celtic ever. But as time as gone on he's becoming overlooked as an all time player. Time will be do this. Someone in my office once tried to tell me that Chris Paul was a better PG than Magic. Recency bias on steroids.
    People tend to forget, if you look st the first half of their careers, unless you were a Lakers fan, Bird was generally regarded by most as the best player in the league. Kind of hard to ignore the three MVPs in a row from 84-86. But Bird does get knocked down a little for the bad back catching up to him quickly, while Magic continued on and started winning his own MVPs.

    Lol, I hated both of them when they played.

  2. #1457
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    Quote Originally Posted by Get The Show On The Road View Post
    There is probably some truth that because he was white he was propped up by people with an agenda.

    But I hate that because when I became a basketball fan I was 11 years old and living in Connecticut and the Lakers were my favorite team.

    I was in the heart of Celtic country, I was a little white boy, and I preferred the Lakers because I liked their style of play better. What the guys looked like never crossed my mind.

    I actually think people could learn a lot from Bird and Magic's relationship.
    Damn right they could. Duke and Georgetown had a similar thing going for them. Duke was a team of mostly white dudes that was most the popular team up here (mainly for that reason I think), same as the Celtics with their white superstar. I don't think it was anything more than people could better relate to them. As a kid I was the opposite, I was a Hoyas fan and a Lakers fan. I never got the race thing, probably too young but kind of understood it later. Then Patrick Ewing got drafted by the Knicks and I became a Knicks fan and I've suffered ever since.

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  4. #1458
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    Quote Originally Posted by JUNGLE DRUMMER View Post
    People tend to forget, if you look st the first half of their careers, unless you were a Lakers fan, Bird was generally regarded by most as the best player in the league. Kind of hard to ignore the three MVPs in a row from 84-86. But Bird does get knocked down a little for the bad back catching up to him quickly, while Magic continued on and started winning his own MVPs.

    Lol, I hated both of them when they played.
    Bird's back changed his legacy. As did the death of Bias. If both of those things don't happen they probably win a couple of more titles. The Bulls run starts later (if ever). Everything changes. That's sports.

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  6. #1459
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    Quote Originally Posted by JUNGLE DRUMMER View Post
    People tend to forget, if you look st the first half of their careers, unless you were a Lakers fan, Bird was generally regarded by most as the best player in the league. Kind of hard to ignore the three MVPs in a row from 84-86. But Bird does get knocked down a little for the bad back catching up to him quickly, while Magic continued on and started winning his own MVPs.

    Lol, I hated both of them when they played.
    If you don't respect that guy for coming out of the locker room and getting it done against the Pacers in the second half after slamming his face against the court and dealing with a bad back in a playoff game then I can't help you.

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  8. #1460
    Atomic Punk JUNGLE DRUMMER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Get The Show On The Road View Post
    There is probably some truth that because he was white he was propped up by people with an agenda.

    But I hate that because when I became a basketball fan I was 11 years old and living in Connecticut and the Lakers were my favorite team.

    I was in the heart of Celtic country, I was a little white boy, and I preferred the Lakers because I liked their style of play better. What the guys looked like never crossed my mind.

    I actually think people could learn a lot from Bird and Magic's relationship.
    I dont think I agree he was propped up too much because he was white. Even with the limiting injuries his last 4-5 years, check his career stats: 24.3 pts, 10.0 rebs, 6.3 asts, 1.7 stls, 49.7 fgs, 88.6 fts. To say nothing of his intangibles like court sense, leadership, and heart.

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  10. #1461
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JUNGLE DRUMMER View Post
    I dont think I agree he was propped up too much because he was white. Even with the limiting injuries his last 4-5 years, check his career stats: 24.3 pts, 10.0 rebs, 6.3 asts, 1.7 stls, 49.7 fgs, 88.6 fts. To say nothing of his intangibles like court sense, leadership, and heart.
    For his peak he was as good as anyone. I think he top 3 in the MVP 7 straight years? Not bad.

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  12. #1462
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    Quote Originally Posted by JUNGLE DRUMMER View Post
    I dont think I agree he was propped up too much because he was white. Even with the limiting injuries his last 4-5 years, check his career stats: 24.3 pts, 10.0 rebs, 6.3 asts, 1.7 stls, 49.7 fgs, 88.6 fts. To say nothing of his intangibles like court sense, leadership, and heart.
    Dennis Rodman and Isaiah Thomas disagree with you.
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  14. #1463
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    I always thought Bird was overrated too - mostly because I hated those Celtics teams. Then I got older and started paying attention to what he actually did.

    His trash talking was legendary. He basically told the other teamís bench what he was going to do, then did it. Not to mention he says before one road game that heís going to play it left handed. So he does, drops 30 or something stupid, and they win. The video on that is ridiculous.

    He was hampered because athletically he wasnít even in the top half of the league. Iím not sure thereís ever been a gutsier or more skilled player.

    There have been a lot of great shooters in the history of the league. But if I had to name one guy to take the shot with my life on the line, itís probably Bird.

  15. #1464
    Atomic Punk Dave's Dreidel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by It's Mike View Post
    Bird's back changed his legacy. As did the death of Bias. If both of those things don't happen they probably win a couple of more titles. The Bulls run starts later (if ever). Everything changes. That's sports.
    This in spades. There is the pre-back injury and post-back injury Bird. Pre-back injury he was as good as anybody who ever played. Sure, his athleticism was not on par with other great players, but neither was Magic's. But man, when you watch old clips of both of them, their basketball IQ and feel for the game were just off the charts.

    They were playing chess and the rest of the league was playing checkers.
    Taylor Swift is nice to look at. Adele can sing.

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  17. #1465
    Atomic Punk I Coulda Hada VH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave's Dreidel View Post
    This in spades. There is the pre-back injury and post-back injury Bird. Pre-back injury he was as good as anybody who ever played. Sure, his athleticism was not on par with other great players, but neither was Magic's. But man, when you watch old clips of both of them, their basketball IQ and feel for the game were just off the charts.

    They were playing chess and the rest of the league was playing checkers.
    You nailed it, DD.
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  18. #1466
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    Quote Originally Posted by It's Mike View Post
    I think when his career is over that most people will rank him in the Kobe class of players. Don't think he needs to worry about legacy when he picks what to do at year end. Lebron put together an all star team in Miami to win a title, you think that's permanently damaged his legacy? People said it at the time. Now the only question he is whether he's #1 or #2 all time.
    Kobe? Maybe. IDK, I just don't see it without leading his own team. Even Kobe needed those last two titles of leading a team on his own to get into "best ever" discussion.

    Lebron put a team together. KD joined an established 73 win team that beat him. It's different.
    Had Lebron not won anther title, leading his own team, yeah, Miami would be hurting him at this point.
    Lebron being the best ever didn't gain full steam till he won on his own.

    If KD was winning with OKC right now, he'd be getting some "best ever" recognition. By leading his own team to titles.
    Cuz he's playing with an all star unit right now he's not getting any of that.

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    Atomic Punk I Coulda Hada VH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrideofPasadena View Post
    Kobe? Maybe. IDK, I just don't see it without leading his own team. Even Kobe needed those last two titles of leading a team on his own to get into "best ever" discussion.

    Lebron put a team together. KD joined an established 73 win team that beat him. It's different.
    Had Lebron not won anther title, leading his own team, yeah, Miami would be hurting him at this point.
    Lebron being the best ever didn't gain full steam till he won on his own.

    If KD was winning with OKC right now, he'd be getting some "best ever" recognition. By leading his own team to titles.
    Cuz he's playing with an all star unit right now he's not getting any of that.
    Nobody leads his team on his own. After Shaq left in 2004, Kobe didn't make it out of the first round until 2008 when the Lakers acquired Pau Gasol. They then went to 3 straight finals and won 2 of them.
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  21. #1468
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    Quote Originally Posted by I Coulda Hada VH View Post
    Nobody leads his team on his own. After Shaq left in 2004, Kobe didn't make it out of the first round until 2008 when the Lakers acquired Pau Gasol. They then went to 3 straight finals and won 2 of them.
    Okay, let me try this again.

    How bout #1 option on a team, the best player on the team, the guy that takes heat when they lose all the praise when they win. In the closing minutes it's his game to win. All the pressure is on him. The leader of the team. Bird, "led" his team to titles.

    KD was the leader of a team but left to join a better team. He is not the leader of team, the pressure is off, doesn't get all the praise or all the heat when they lose. The exact opposite of what the definition of best ever is.

    My point is, if he wants to be in the best ever talk, and the reason he isn't now, is because he has to do it somewhere else.
    Somewhere where the pressure is all on him. He's the clear cut best player on the team. The clear cut #1 option, the guy who get all the praise when they win and the heat when they lose.
    Leads his own team, leader of the team...and wins.

    Until he does that the narrative will stay about the same.

  22. #1469
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    Quote Originally Posted by JUNGLE DRUMMER View Post
    Remember all those guys. IIRC, Cotton sat on the bench for the Supersonics for a couple years.
    Quote Originally Posted by Get The Show On The Road View Post
    I played against his older brother, James Cotton.

    We lost in the CIF quarterfinals 66-61. Last game of my high school career.

    I also played against Jacque Vaughn who went to Muir like DLR and had a long NBA career, Tony Gonzalez, and Keith Van Horn.

    But the best high school player I ever saw was a guy named Ed Gray from Riverside North. I think he played for the Hawks for a while.

    EDIT: Apparently it was James Cotton who played for the Sonics.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jame...n_(basketball)
    Awesome.

    I donít remember the year, but I went to a summer league game to watch my future high school play. As the game was ending the stands got packed. Artesia was playing next with Charles OíBannon and Avondre Jones. They were pretty damn good.

    So we went later to another summer league game to see Artesia High. There were about a dozen of us in the stands. It was a buddy of mine, me, and my dadÖ

    Oh, and also Jim Herrick, Rick Pitino, and George Raveling.


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