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  1. #466
    Atomic Punk japeape's Avatar
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    Dear God, this is basic stuff people.

    AGAIN, no one is saying Metallica or Styx are Blues bands, despite Harpo purposely
    ignoring that very statement.

    What we are saying is there is a direct line back to Blues music, when you follow the family
    tree of all these different variations of what we call rock & roll.

    I repeatedly mentioned other elements, like modal scales, folk influences, swing ideas, were added.
    But the skeleton of the entire thing was formed by the Blues & black culture.

    I don't think i can be much clearer or simplify my point further, Harpo.
    You, like Squalen, simply refuse to admit defeat & keep hammering at things you've imagined
    we've said.

    You were wrong about The Beatles/KISS thing (and i love KISS, btw).
    And you're wrong about this debate, as well.

    Just admit it & move on.
    Graver, Walking Ed, refugee from CVH & proud tone chaser...

  2. #467
    Atomic Punk Dave's Dreidel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brett View Post
    Iím not sure what the argument is. Rock and Roll came from the blues. Has rock taken on different forms and sounds over the years? Of course. Has it incorporated elements of other types of music over the years? Of course. But its roots have always been based in traditional blues music.
    This. Case closed.
    Taylor Swift is nice to look at. Adele can sing.

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  3. #468
    Atomic Punk japeape's Avatar
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    The Blues had a baby & called it rock & roll.

    Rock & Roll had a baby and called it Heavy Metal.

    Glenn Miller had a baby & called it Kenny G.
    Graver, Walking Ed, refugee from CVH & proud tone chaser...

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  5. #469
    Baluchitherium Harpospoke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-roc View Post
    You're missing my point. All the black artists you mention had success because rock became mainstream and acceptable to white audiences. Rock became mainstream by putting a white face on what was called and considered negro music. They didn't decide to not be blues just to sell records. They were already doing what was to be called rock and roll, and their white counterparts were more succesful by dint of being not black. See Elvis; no one is calling Chuck Berry or Fats Domino the King of Rock and Roll...
    Except that's just not true. That's the myth. It gets repeated over and over until it becomes a "fact" to some people. Black people were very successful if they didn't do blues.

    There were highly successful black artists BEFORE Elvis and before rock and roll.

    Nat King Cole refutes your claim. He was having mainstream success in the 40s that led to his TV show in the 50s.

    Fats Domino refutes your claim. His first top 10 appeared in July of 1955....before Elvis was a national act. (Elvis was a regional star until early 1956)

    The Drifters refute your claim. They had their first top 40 hit in 1953 with "Honey Love". A song that features Latin rhythms. I guess "black people stole Latin music"?

    Chuck Berry refutes your claim. He scored his first national hit before Elvis by recording "Maybellene" in May of 1955. ....A song he "stole" from Bob Wills & The Texas Playboys. It was a reworking of "Ida Red". ....A country song first recorded in 1938. Here is a good description of how Berry arrived at his sound:

    By early 1953 Berry was performing with Johnnie Johnson's trio, starting a long-time collaboration with the pianist. The band played mostly blues and ballads, but the most popular music among whites in the area was country. Berry wrote, "Curiosity provoked me to lay a lot of our country stuff on our predominantly black audience and some of our black audience began whispering 'who is that black hillbilly at the Cosmo?' After they laughed at me a few times they began requesting the hillbilly stuff and enjoyed dancing to it."

    Berry's calculated showmanship, along with a mix of country tunes and R&B tunes, sung in the style of Nat King Cole set to the music of Muddy Waters, brought in a wider audience, particularly affluent white people.


    Chuck was so different from blues that black music fans called him a "hillbilly".

    Sarah Vaughan refutes your claim. She had no less that 18 top 40 mainstream hits before Elvis broke out nationally....starting in the 1940s.

    Ella Fitzgerald refutes your claim. She had 53 top 40 hits from 1936 to 1954! (wow!)

    Harry Belafonte refutes your claim. He had his first top 40 hit in 1953.

    Duke Ellington refutes your claim. He had 70 top 40 hits from 1927 to 1953! (holy crap!)

    Dinah Washington refutes your claim. She had 3 top 40 hits from 1946 to 1954.

    The Platters refute your claim. They had their first top 10 hit in the summer of 1955 before Elvis had his first national hit. "Only You" went to #5. Then in November of 1955, they got to #1 with "The Great Pretender".

    Being "black" wasn't the problem for blues artists....the blues was the problem. It just didn't sell as well as other genres. Obviously rock music was doing something different.

    Quote Originally Posted by E-roc
    I myself am not claiming anyone stole anything, it's just the way it was/is.
    So the "theft" claim is still accepted no matter how absurd that entire concept is.

    Quote Originally Posted by E-roc
    There have been plenty of popular and successful blues acts, but that was never my argument and is beside the point.
    It's kinda the whole point. The "theft" claim is rooted entirely in the fact that rock acts were so popular while blues acts were not popular. No one ever claims "theft" for things that are not successful. So jealousy entered the picture along with racial politics.

    A logical examination of this reveals that blues has never been a popular genre. Rock music took elements from MANY sources and created something new and was incredibly popular by NOT being blues. The two genres diverged into two entirely different things long ago. By the time the Beatles showed up, blues was such a minor part of it that any act focusing on blues practically had to put it in their name. John Mayall & the Bluesbreakers were one example...and of course never had a big hit. White people couldn't make blues a hit either.

    Quote Originally Posted by E-roc
    Of course there are other influences, but what got the ball rolling to begin with was the blues. To parse country music outside of that is almost acedemic. Both blues and country have essentially the same harmonic conttent, it's the rhythm and the feel that makes them different. That why blues+rockabilly+country swing = (early) rock and roll. The origins of which come out of black America.
    Sure...if you just stop going back in time when it's convenient for your argument.

    Just ignore that blues originated in North America instead of Africa by an amazing coincidence.

    Where do you suppose blues musicians got the idea to play the guitar?
    Where do you suppose blues musicians got the idea to base the genre on western music theory?

    So if we want to just ignore any changes a group of people make to a style of music then blues was "stolen" from white people, wasn't it? Folk musicians "''got the ball rolling" in the first place.

    So I guess if there can be "theft" of a form of music then that means "White people took it back from black people".

    Quote Originally Posted by E-roc View Post
    Just googled chuck berry guitar style food r kicks. Guess which word came up most in all the tutorials? Blues. Never mind that pretty much all the early rnr ( Johnny b Goode, tutti frutti, jailhouse Rock, blueberry hill etc etc etc) were all based off blues progressions.

    Canít believe Iím compelled to argue the history of the art thatís right there for anyone to hear.
    So a Google search makes Chuck Berry into a blues guitarist now?

    Now Google "blues guitarists" and see if Chuck's name pops up:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=blue...hrome&ie=UTF-8

    Ok...I've got to admit that pretty hilarious. Les Paul, Bob Dylan, and Keith Richards popped up too. Point made....Google is ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by bklynboy68 View Post
    Cool. I'll rock out to this Mozart influenced progressive rock track.




    Thank you. Yet another rock song that is obviously not a blues song. The list is endless of course. Just pick a rock song at random and chances are it's not close to being a blues song.





    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin Stephens View Post
    The hole in the dialogue seems to be aiming for one and only one influence. Rock n roll is so American in the sense it is a mutt. The dominant strain is most definitely the blues. The later examples of hey Metallica added some classical overlay etc... yeah but Metallica does not exist without the blues as rock n roll does not. Yes the additions of new flavors and stealing from other areas of music is very rock and will continue but these additional layers are not the pre cursor. Infact yes even Eruption owes itself to black guitarists. The hammer on technique was developed and used extensively in black clubs in the 20's and 30's before falling out of fashion. Edward plays guitar like a percussionist and his father's exposure to that older era combine for that technique being resurrected by Edward but it is right out of the black clubs.
    History certainly has to be rewritten to make this claim work.

    Paganini was using tapping techniques in the early 1800s. (he was also a great guitarist) But lets pretend black people invented it instead.

    I totally agree that "rock and roll is a mutt". A great description of it. The attempt to pin it all on one root genre is not accurate at all. The biggest rock band of all time barely used blues at all in their compositions.

    So why is it "stealing" when it's blues, but "influence" when it's country, jazz, Latin, or classical? The choice of terms there is revealing to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacfanweb View Post
    It was a combination of blues, swing and even some jazz and folk elements. And different bands/songs have obviously leaned towards all of those directions over the years. You would not have rock without all these elements, so I would say it's true that the blues gets way too much credit.

    To say rock is based on the blues is like saying lasagna is based on tomato. Yeah, it's in there, but so is pasta, cheese and many other spices as well. Some people make it with other ingredients as well. Or more cheese, less tomato, or even no tomato. But it's all lasagna.

    Does anyone hear the blues in Crosby Stills and Nash? They were rock back then, but more folksy. Same with Dylan.

    All Chuck Berry's songs were based on blues progressions. But still rock. His stuff swings as well, which did NOT come from the blues.

    I don't hear the blues much in the Beatles, but that's what they listened to.

    Don't hear any blues in Styx, either. And so on.

    All cars today and manufacturing descended from Henry Ford's production lines and the Model T, but none of them remotely resemble either, other than they have 4 wheels.

    Y'all need to spend a few days listening to the 40's channel on Sirius. You'll be surprised at how many future rock/pop hits originated there, in the big band/swing era.
    That's the best analogy I've ever heard.

    Quote Originally Posted by japeape View Post
    Dear God, this is basic stuff people.

    AGAIN, no one is saying Metallica or Styx are Blues bands, despite Harpo purposely
    ignoring that very statement.

    What we are saying is there is a direct line back to Blues music, when you follow the family
    tree of all these different variations of what we call rock & roll.

    I repeatedly mentioned other elements, like modal scales, folk influences, swing ideas, were added.
    But the skeleton of the entire thing was formed by the Blues & black culture.

    I don't think i can be much clearer or simplify my point further, Harpo.
    You, like Squalen, simply refuse to admit defeat & keep hammering at things you've imagined
    we've said.

    You were wrong about The Beatles/KISS thing (and i love KISS, btw).
    And you're wrong about this debate, as well.

    Just admit it & move on.
    Not wrong at all.

    Still hearing things like "100% based on the blues" on your side of the argument. If you don't challenge that statement I can only assume you agree with it.

    And I'm seeing very little in the way of attempting to address the flaws in the claims that rock music only came from blues. You claim you aren't saying that, but then you continue to act like other elements are less important than the blues element. I have to assume that's to support this "theft" claim. (the original claim that you also did not challenge)

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  7. #470
    Atomic Punk japeape's Avatar
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    Led Zeppelin weren't doing "Kashmir" on Led Zeppelin I.

    They were doing, You shook me, How many more times/The Hunter, I can't quit you baby...
    They progressed into other things, but the foundation was a spin on the Blues rock foundation.
    Actually, Zep & Beck kind of invented the Blues Rock foundation, or the formula derived from
    the actual early Blues.

    I'm not sure why you keep adding random videos of Def Leppard or Metallica, to
    dispute a point about the earliest forms of the genre, the seed of it all.

    You know you're wrong, but you you refuse to concede, so instead, you pull
    at random points that were never made to begin with, to deflect from the obvious.
    That's your tactic, which you also utilized in the Beatles/Kiss debate.
    Graver, Walking Ed, refugee from CVH & proud tone chaser...

  8. #471
    Atomic Punk bklynboy68's Avatar
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    †"He has a swaggering retro machismo that will give hives to the Steinem cabal" -Camille Paglia on Donald Trump

    "Make way for the bad guy"- Tony Montana

    'This hamburger don't need no helper"- David Lee Roth

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    "But being number one doesnít really mean jack fuck all. We sold twice as many records as other records that year (1984) that landed in the Number One position." ~Eddie Van Halen

  9. #472
    Atomic Punk japeape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bklynboy68 View Post
    What he's using is called a "Liberal tactic."
    Graver, Walking Ed, refugee from CVH & proud tone chaser...

  10. #473
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    "It's so lonely at the top because it's so crowded at the bottom" - Diamond David Lee Roth

    "Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

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  11. #474
    Atomic Punk japeape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I Coulda Hada VH View Post
    I stopped listening to Ozzy after No more Tears.

    I could not tell you a Perry Mason from a Scream from a Gus G.
    Graver, Walking Ed, refugee from CVH & proud tone chaser...

  12. #475
    Atomic Punk I Coulda Hada VH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by japeape View Post
    I stopped listening to Ozzy after No more Tears.

    I could not tell you a Perry Mason from a Scream from a Gus G.
    Lucky for you that Road To Nowhere is the last track on No More Tears.
    "It's so lonely at the top because it's so crowded at the bottom" - Diamond David Lee Roth

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  13. #476
    Atomic Punk japeape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I Coulda Hada VH View Post
    Lucky for you that Road To Nowhere is the last track on No More Tears.
    Is it?

    I only vaguely remember S.I.N. and Desire, outside the hits.
    Graver, Walking Ed, refugee from CVH & proud tone chaser...

  14. #477
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    Harpo no history does not have to be re-written at all.

    Yes hammer ons were used way back but due to a lack of time travel the actual origin of how it came into modern music and influenced Celts was in the 20 and 30's in black clubs. I actually did not break it down by race so no you are inventing that shit not I. I broke it down primarily by low income which was how celt, country, blues and eventually rockabilly intersected. Their economic plights and oral history traditions gave the 2 groups their common ground, not race. The common language was indeed struggle and they also were similar socio economic standing, hence the cross pollination. The person with classical recordings and record player in that time period was not hanging in black clubs or with the Appalachian tribes.


    I say stealing if an entire technique is lifted but would say influence if later on. I would associate stealing to being able to do it direct versus over time the 2nd and 3rd gen would be more influence but essentially same thing just splitting hairs on flavor. I actually did reference specifically country sorry you missed it. I left out classical and latin as neither were prevalent among that economic class at the time but absolutely you can say many latin rhythms were stolen in some instances. As I said it is a mutt but the origins do intersect with a few dominant forces that then everyone contributes to over time.

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  16. #478
    Atomic Punk japeape's Avatar
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    Cool point about Latin music.

    But even Santana was that Blues foundation coupled with a Latin feel.
    Graver, Walking Ed, refugee from CVH & proud tone chaser...

  17. #479
    Atomic Punk I Coulda Hada VH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by japeape View Post
    Is it?

    I only vaguely remember S.I.N. and Desire, outside the hits.
    Yes, it is.
    "It's so lonely at the top because it's so crowded at the bottom" - Diamond David Lee Roth

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