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Thread: FIFA World Cup

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlofeldsCat View Post
    Not at all, Chris.

    66 - won

    70 - QF when we were 2-0 up on the Germans and cruising. Held our own with the greatest Brazil team ever.

    86 - QF but cheated by Argentina (eventual winners)

    90 - SF - outplayed Germany (eventual winners) who only scored through a deflected free kick - only defeated on penalties. Voted best football of the tourney. Genius of Gazza and Lineker close to repeating his Golden Boot of 86.

    98 - drew despite having a man sent off and having a perfectly good goal ruled out - only defeated on penalties after having a man sent off. Owen electrified the tourney

    02 - QF - beating Brazil and the two best players in the world (Ronaldinho and Rivaldo). Lost to the eventual winners only because of a fluke and unintended goal due to the new lighter, floaty balls

    06 - QF - drew with Portugal - only eliminated on penalties

    10 - 2nd - terrible WC, dogged by player unrest at manager - but even then only eliminated when we had the most blatant goal of all time ruled out (which was the catalyst for VAR) which would have tied the match.

    14 - group stage - worst WC ever but clear as day all was not right in the camp

    18 - SF - youngest squad in the tourney. Top scorer and most devastating set pieces. Played more attacking football than anyone bar Belgium.


    So let's recap:
    3 WC eliminations despite not actually losing (lottery of penalty shootouts)
    3 WC eliminations to the eventual winners - who beat everyone else they came up against
    Eliminated by cheating at 1 WC (to the eventual winners)
    Elimnated by inept officials getting a blatant decision wrong at 1 WC
    Eliminated by fluke goal (by the eventual winners) at another WC


    86 and 90 were our strongest teams - with many coveted-by-top-clubs players such as Lineker, Waddle, Barnes, Gazza, Platt, Stevens, Walker, Beardsley. Cheated at 1 tourney and could really have reached the SF and maybe more. Inseperable at the other after 2 hours and which took a deflected goal and penalties to eliminate (but not beat) us and so could easily have made the final and general consensus is that Argentina were there for the taking. Lost to the eventual winners both times too - when Holland, Italy, Brazil and co were also felled so no shame there.

    98 was arguably our best team of the modern era and we played great football yet despite facing a better-ranked team in Argentina, outplayed them for 2 hours and with just 10 men for most of it. Having a clear goal disallowed and only succumbing to the chance of a shootout. That's the team that really should have gone far.

    In 2002 we were voted by L'Equipe and World Football - non-English publications - as the favourites to win. The hype was there because we had outstanding players - always wanted by the top clubs , including Shearer, Owen, Beckham, Martyn, Seaman, McManaman, Campbell, - Sheringham, Ferdinand, Cole, Campbell, Scholes (who Zidane, Iniesta and Xavi all voted the best midfielder of the modern era).

    Then in 2006 it was the Golden Generation: Title and Euro trophy-winning stars like Beckham, Scholes, Ferdinand, Lampard, Rooney (who had electrified the 2004 Euros), Cole, Campbell, Neville, Carrick, Terry, Carragher, Gerrard (who single-handedly dragged Liverpool to the Champions League trophy against AC Milan), Walcott, Hargreaves etc.

    66, 70, 86, 90, 98, 02 and 06 teams were led by pure goal machines - which means you always have a chance. 70, 86 and 90 had 3 super-creative midfeld players when most teams only sported one. Scifo carried Belgium in 86, Baggio carried Itlay in 90 and 94, Maradona carried Argentina in 86 and 90. And for all those tourneys bar 06 we had top tier keepers as well - again, always giving you a chance.

    Expectation is high - not just from the English media - because of the players, their club achievements. Up until the late 90s English clubs had won more European trohoies than any other country DESPITE being banned for half a decade. Expectation is also high based on performances in the WC. We suffer because we are the only top-tier nation NOT to have a winter break so by the time the summer comes around our players are usually running on empty.

    We also suffered (until recently) from being too honest whilst those around us tried every angle they could - which makes a huge difference in games of fine margins. Simeon's extravagant dive in 98 to get Becks sent off; Rivaldo feigning injury in 02 when Owen was left with a one-on-one with the keeper to make it 2-0; Neuer shamelessly trying to make out the ball didn't cross the line in 10; Maradona's Hand of God in 86.

    Fans, players and managers around the world expect good things from us and a combination of all of the above - of often meeting the eventual winners to holding our own across normal time and extra time, and of sheer flukes and bad luck decisions.

    France, Holland and Spain were always rated super-highly despite not acheiving anything of note for many years. In fact, Spain was the ultimate conundrum of 'why do they never do well in tourneys?'for decades.

    The only times we delivered mediocre football was 06, 10 & 14 and even then it took penalties from a Ronaldo-in-his-pomp Portugal to shake us off. Italy has delivered more mediocre, universally-derided football at tournaments than us and they've won the thing 4 times - which is even more damning than our supposed banality. The 10 and 14 debacles are well-documented due to mis-management - which led to player cliques and disenchantment - and the vitriolic media campaigns from the most vicious press in the world. We were shit - hands up for that - but not for anything else.

    But overall, no, we're not mediocre and we're not overhyped. We actually underachieve (and that's the vital point) and anyone with a clue would know this instead of trying to be clueless, baiting fuckwits in this thread..

    And if said cocks want to disagree, then they can take it up with the former players and managers of foreign countries, and the assorted media that expect good things from us - as well as our incredible European trophy haul at club level (mostly amassed in the days when only 3 foreigners were allowed).

    And that's why the foreign press were enchanted with the 2018 team. From Bild and 11 Freunde in Germany to Globe in Brazil to Gazetta Dello Sporto in Italy to La Nacion of Argen-fucking-tina (who despise us despite our utterly water-tight - and internationally-ratified - ownership of The Falklands). When Someone of the stature of Rinus Michaels says it's unbelievable that England haven't finalled and won more World Cups then I think he's worth listening to more than certain individuals across the pond (the pond, ffs).

    Here endeth the football lesson. The Bitter Ones (and I know their agenda) can yak all the shit they want.
    if you constantly underachieve like England does then you're over-hyped. I agree with much of the rest of this post though.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlofeldsCat View Post
    Not at all, Chris.

    66 - won

    70 - QF when we were 2-0 up on the Germans and cruising. Held our own with the greatest Brazil team ever.

    86 - QF but cheated by Argentina (eventual winners)

    90 - SF - outplayed Germany (eventual winners) who only scored through a deflected free kick - only defeated on penalties. Voted best football of the tourney. Genius of Gazza and Lineker close to repeating his Golden Boot of 86.

    98 - drew despite having a man sent off and having a perfectly good goal ruled out - only defeated on penalties after having a man sent off. Owen electrified the tourney

    02 - QF - beating Brazil and the two best players in the world (Ronaldinho and Rivaldo). Lost to the eventual winners only because of a fluke and unintended goal due to the new lighter, floaty balls

    06 - QF - drew with Portugal - only eliminated on penalties

    10 - 2nd - terrible WC, dogged by player unrest at manager - but even then only eliminated when we had the most blatant goal of all time ruled out (which was the catalyst for VAR) which would have tied the match.

    14 - group stage - worst WC ever but clear as day all was not right in the camp

    18 - SF - youngest squad in the tourney. Top scorer and most devastating set pieces. Played more attacking football than anyone bar Belgium.


    So let's recap:
    3 WC eliminations despite not actually losing (lottery of penalty shootouts)
    3 WC eliminations to the eventual winners - who beat everyone else they came up against
    Eliminated by cheating at 1 WC (to the eventual winners)
    Elimnated by inept officials getting a blatant decision wrong at 1 WC
    Eliminated by fluke goal (by the eventual winners) at another WC


    86 and 90 were our strongest teams - with many coveted-by-top-clubs players such as Lineker, Waddle, Barnes, Gazza, Platt, Stevens, Walker, Beardsley. Cheated at 1 tourney and could really have reached the SF and maybe more. Inseperable at the other after 2 hours and which took a deflected goal and penalties to eliminate (but not beat) us and so could easily have made the final and general consensus is that Argentina were there for the taking. Lost to the eventual winners both times too - when Holland, Italy, Brazil and co were also felled so no shame there.

    98 was arguably our best team of the modern era and we played great football yet despite facing a better-ranked team in Argentina, outplayed them for 2 hours and with just 10 men for most of it. Having a clear goal disallowed and only succumbing to the chance of a shootout. That's the team that really should have gone far.

    In 2002 we were voted by L'Equipe and World Football - non-English publications - as the favourites to win. The hype was there because we had outstanding players - always wanted by the top clubs , including Shearer, Owen, Beckham, Martyn, Seaman, McManaman, Campbell, - Sheringham, Ferdinand, Cole, Campbell, Scholes (who Zidane, Iniesta and Xavi all voted the best midfielder of the modern era).

    Then in 2006 it was the Golden Generation: Title and Euro trophy-winning stars like Beckham, Scholes, Ferdinand, Lampard, Rooney (who had electrified the 2004 Euros), Cole, Campbell, Neville, Carrick, Terry, Carragher, Gerrard (who single-handedly dragged Liverpool to the Champions League trophy against AC Milan), Walcott, Hargreaves etc.

    66, 70, 86, 90, 98, 02 and 06 teams were led by pure goal machines - which means you always have a chance. 70, 86 and 90 had 3 super-creative midfeld players when most teams only sported one. Scifo carried Belgium in 86, Baggio carried Itlay in 90 and 94, Maradona carried Argentina in 86 and 90. And for all those tourneys bar 06 we had top tier keepers as well - again, always giving you a chance.

    Expectation is high - not just from the English media - because of the players, their club achievements. Up until the late 90s English clubs had won more European trohoies than any other country DESPITE being banned for half a decade. Expectation is also high based on performances in the WC. We suffer because we are the only top-tier nation NOT to have a winter break so by the time the summer comes around our players are usually running on empty.

    We also suffered (until recently) from being too honest whilst those around us tried every angle they could - which makes a huge difference in games of fine margins. Simeon's extravagant dive in 98 to get Becks sent off; Rivaldo feigning injury in 02 when Owen was left with a one-on-one with the keeper to make it 2-0; Neuer shamelessly trying to make out the ball didn't cross the line in 10; Maradona's Hand of God in 86.

    Fans, players and managers around the world expect good things from us and a combination of all of the above - of often meeting the eventual winners to holding our own across normal time and extra time, and of sheer flukes and bad luck decisions.

    France, Holland and Spain were always rated super-highly despite not acheiving anything of note for many years. In fact, Spain was the ultimate conundrum of 'why do they never do well in tourneys?'for decades.

    The only times we delivered mediocre football was 06, 10 & 14 and even then it took penalties from a Ronaldo-in-his-pomp Portugal to shake us off. Italy has delivered more mediocre, universally-derided football at tournaments than us and they've won the thing 4 times - which is even more damning than our supposed banality. The 10 and 14 debacles are well-documented due to mis-management - which led to player cliques and disenchantment - and the vitriolic media campaigns from the most vicious press in the world. We were shit - hands up for that - but not for anything else.

    But overall, no, we're not mediocre and we're not overhyped. We actually underachieve (and that's the vital point) and anyone with a clue would know this instead of trying to be clueless, baiting fuckwits in this thread..

    And if said cocks want to disagree, then they can take it up with the former players and managers of foreign countries, and the assorted media that expect good things from us - as well as our incredible European trophy haul at club level (mostly amassed in the days when only 3 foreigners were allowed).

    And that's why the foreign press were enchanted with the 2018 team. From Bild and 11 Freunde in Germany to Globe in Brazil to Gazetta Dello Sporto in Italy to La Nacion of Argen-fucking-tina (who despise us despite our utterly water-tight - and internationally-ratified - ownership of The Falklands). When Someone of the stature of Rinus Michaels says it's unbelievable that England haven't finalled and won more World Cups then I think he's worth listening to more than certain individuals across the pond (the pond, ffs).

    Here endeth the football lesson. The Bitter Ones (and I know their agenda) can yak all the shit they want.
    You don't have to convince me. England is my team. A natural bias.

  3. #48
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    Belgium vs England today
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    Quote Originally Posted by It's Mike View Post
    if you constantly underachieve like England does then you're over-hyped.
    Not true.

    Over-hyping is when merit is unjustly attributed - believing the subject to be better than they actually are.
    Underachieving is when that talent and merit is justified but the subject doesn't attain the results that their talent and performances merit.

    Saying Chris Holmes has the chops and discography to rival Eddie Van Halen is over-hype.
    Eddie releasing an album full of Chris Holmesy riffs and solos is underachieving.

    We had the talent (2004 - 2010 we had what what routinely labelled as the strongest midfield in the world) and we even had the performances. Results just didn't go our way, games decided by fluke, cheating, lotteries and even suicidal tactical change. We've suffered more bad luck than any other international team - over-payback for the final goal in the '66 final.

    Just looking at coin-toss penalties (and our play in those games) as well as the fluke and cheating games - our record could oh-so easily look much more impressive:

    66 - winners
    70 - SF+
    86 - SF+
    90 - Finalists+
    98 - QF+
    02 - SF+
    06 - SF+
    10 - QF+
    14 - Group
    18 - Finalists+

    Just taking 90 and 18 into account, we could and should be 3 times WC winners at least.
    England/Blofeld bashers may call England mediocre but that's a tag for Iran, Saudi Arabia, Norway, Sweden, Costa Rica etc. Hell, even the mighty Azzurri.
    Last edited by BlofeldsCat; 07.14.18 at 09:20 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raldo View Post
    Belgium vs England today
    And no one cares, as epitomised in the team selection and the performances.

    I fell sorry for anyone watching American coverage - the depth of insight and analysis is wafer-thin. Shocking.

  6. #51
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlofeldsCat View Post
    Not true.

    Over-hyping is when merit is unjustly attributed - believing the subject to be better than they actually are.
    Underachieving is when that talent and merit is justified but the subject doesn't attain the results that their talent and performances merit.

    Saying Chris Holmes has the chops and discography to rival Eddie Van Halen is over-hype.
    Eddie releasing an album full of Chris Holmesy riffs and solos is underachieving.

    We had the talent (2004 - 2010 we had what what routinely labelled as the strongest midfield in the world) and we even had the performances. Results just didn't go our way, games decided by fluke, cheating, lotteries and even suicidal tactical change. We've suffered more bad luck than any other international team - over-payback for the final goal in the '66 final.

    Just looking at coin-toss penalties (and our play in those games) as well as the fluke and cheating games - our record could oh-so easily look much more impressive:

    66 - winners
    70 - SF+
    86 - SF+
    90 - Finalists+
    98 - QF+
    02 - SF+
    06 - SF+
    10 - QF+
    14 - Group
    18 - Finalists+

    Just taking 90 and 18 into account, we could and should be 3 times WC winners at least.
    England/Blofeld bashers may call England mediocre but that's a tag for Iran, Saudi Arabia, Norway, Sweden, Costa Rica etc. Hell, even the mighty Azzurri.
    The "we lost because of bad luck and bad officials" - you can hold that on to that for a tournament or two, maybe 3. You cannot hold on to that when a team has won nothing in 50 years. Not a World Cup, not a EURO. Nothing. Hell, have they even made a Final game over that time period? People (mostly the Brits) like to talk about England like they are the equals of the true powers in the sport, a Brazil, Germany or Italy. This is a laughable position to hold. Italy (my background so I'll use them as an example - and to call them mediocre is quite comical by the way if you mean historically, if you mean in 2018 then you are being quite kind) has been unlucky in penalty kicks at times (lost a title game vs Brazil in 94, also were eliminated in a penalties in 90 and 98 i believe), was kicked out of a tournament (as was Portugal) against a South Korean team that was playing with a ref in their pockets (Byron Moreno - arguable the worst official in World Cup history). In 2014 an official missed a player biting an Italian player which cost them their tournament lives. But these are the things that you have to play through. So despite Italy having bad luck and horrible officiating, they can say yes but a world title in 1982, another in 2006. Because if you're truly a soccer power, you will bump into titles every so often when bad luck falls upon others. England never seems to take advantage of this. Why? Perhaps they are the unluckiest team in the history of sports, I'll give you that - maybe they are. Because they have talent and a fantastic domestic league to draw players from. More likely I'd say, they are simply not nearly as good as some people like to think. Because if they were, at some point they would have turned that ability into results one would imagine.

    The biggest issue is they have never developed someone who is a true monster of the sport who can carry that team to greatness - certainly no one over the past 50 years. There is no Pele, no Diego, hell there is nobody developed in the last 50 years who one could compare to a 3 dozen players who have played over that time. But they have sold them up as such, they talked Michael Owen up like he was the next great player, he wasn't. They talked by Beckham like he was a brilliant player without equal, in reality he was a great set piece player who did little else. Rio Ferdinand was talked about like Jesus Christ himself had taken up the sport. Comical levels of praise I'd say. And this is unfortunate because the sport would be better with England being a legitimate threat, and not just a paper tiger as she has been for my entire lifetime.
    Last edited by It's Mike; 07.14.18 at 03:42 PM.

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    I've written a very long, detailed reply debunking everything you said but then realised it's too long for most people to read (and hardly anyone is reading this thread anyway) and even if you did, your mind is made up so there's no point in posting it.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlofeldsCat View Post
    I've written a very long, detailed reply debunking everything you said but then realised it's too long for most people to read (and hardly anyone is reading this thread anyway) and even if you did, your mind is made up so there's no point in posting it.
    Interesting.

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    Oh I still have it. Saved it.

    Suffice it to say, I. nor anyone else, said England are in the top 3 countries in the world.


    What I did say was say, in response to your baiting:

    1) England are not over-hyped or mediocre . Not their players, their performance, or results.

    2) Their results should've been better - they should've SF 70, Final 90, Final 18 and Final Euro 96 to name but a few

    3) Foreign press and football pros have counted England as viable contenders and praised their play

    4) A young and inexperienced team - that has won rave reviews from said foreign press and pros for their attitude and for playing the right way - winning the World Cup is not a bad thing and not something that warranted your dick-ish comment that said it was (and only spewed in an attempt to needle me).
    Last edited by BlofeldsCat; 07.15.18 at 06:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlofeldsCat View Post
    Oh I still have it. Saved it.

    Suffice it to say, I. nor anyone else, said England are in the top 3 countries in the world.


    What I did say was say, in response to your baiting:

    1) England are not, 2008-2014 apart, mediocre. Not in their players, not in their performance, nor in their results

    2) Their results should've been better - they should've SF 70, Final 90, Final 18 and Final Euro 96 to name but a few

    3) Foreign press and football pros have counted England as viable contenders and praised their play

    4) A young and inexperienced team - that has won rave reviews from said foreign press and pros for their attitude and for playing the right way - winning the World Cup is not a bad thing and not something that warranted your dick-ish comment that said it was (and only spewed in an attempt to needle me).
    Agree with pretty much all of this (except maybe the "playing the right way" - that's typically what people throw out when they lose). I think they are currently a very good club (certainly much better than the disaster that my team has put on the field recently) and making the semis in the world cup speaks to their talent. My only issue is what the way you tried to clean up a 50 year record of under performance. As I said in my prior post it's better when England are legitimate contenders and it appears they are finally heading in that direction. For the first time in a long time they outdid expectations this time around. And they did this with the youngest team in the tournament, that's a good sign for the next euros and world cup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by It's Mike View Post
    Agree with pretty much all of this (except maybe the "playing the right way" - that's typically what people throw out when they lose).
    Playing the right way = passing from the back, even when under pressure, always on the offensive. Ironically the only time we deviated from this methodology, when we tried to protect our lead against Croatia, we went from dominating the match to being dominated.


    My only issue is what the way you tried to clean up a 50 year record of under performance.
    No one knows about our underachievement more than us but all I said was an honest assessment and to point out how close we have been to SF and finals if not for repeated bad luck. Apart from the outragoues non-goal against Germany in 2010, we've never been tonked or embarrassed by the quality of our opponents. And all of this was to illustrate that though we have underachieved - sometimes our fault, often not - we're far from mediocre.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlofeldsCat View Post
    Playing the right way = passing from the back, even when under pressure, always on the offensive. Ironically the only time we deviated from this methodology, when we tried to protect our lead against Croatia, we went from dominating the match to being dominated.
    gotcha, that's fair.


    Quote Originally Posted by BlofeldsCat View Post

    No one knows about our underachievement more than us but all I said was an honest assessment and to point out how close we have been to SF and finals if not for repeated bad luck. Apart from the outragoues non-goal against Germany in 2010, we've never been tonked or embarrassed by the quality of our opponents. And all of this was to illustrate that though we have underachieved - sometimes our fault, often not - we're far from mediocre.
    There's certainly elements of bad luck in these tournaments, always will be. So while you can say "we should have won this title or this title", a number of countries can do the same. Italians can say they should have 7 or 8 World Cups at this point if not for bad luck. There comes a point where you need to throw the bad luck thing out the window and just look at the results as the results. This tournament for instance, England had some good fortune on their hands and a pretty easy path to a Finals (no Germany, no Brazil, etc). Columbia, Sweden and Croatia? That's a pretty sweet draw. And they should have been playing France today, I agree with you. They pulled an Italy and tried to defend a 1 goal league for over an hour. And I don't think England is built to play that way (not sure they ever have to be honest), I think they need to continue to attack. Wouldn't have liked their chances against France but you never know in a Final. I think they'll be better in 20 and 22 but this was a draw they are unlikely to get again so they'll need to be better,

 

 

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