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  1. #3571
    Atomic Punk jrk5150's Avatar
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    You know - and bear with me for a second - in coaching youth football, we always discussed how you get your kids to consistently do X - usually be an aggressive hard hitting team, but the X really doesn't matter. The answer is culture - it's not about a drill, or a scheme, and it's not something you do quickly - it's an entire approach to how you go about running your team. It's something you reinforce with every minute of every practice. It's how you go about everything.

    And unfortunately, that's the answer here. It's a much, much larger cultural thing that has to be changed, and it cannot happen quickly, simply by human nature. And even more unfortunately, we have a sizable percentage of our population who won't even engage in the conversation, because they don't really, fundamentally, see an issue with the violence. This kind of violence is an acceptable cost to maintain their rights and their view of the world.

    I will GUARANTEE you there is a significant chunk of our elected governmental officials, and that includes our dear POTUS, who deep down don't give a flying fuck about these incidents. They care about their power, and how they can keep their power. And when THAT is your "leadership", we don't have a fucking chance.
    Last edited by jrk5150; 11.08.18 at 02:20 PM.

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  3. #3572
    Atomic Punk Little Dreamer's Avatar
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    There is a way to sgnificantly reduce gun violence without touching the 2nd amendment. Right now there are around 300 millions guns on the street in this country. If you managed to cut this number in half, there would still be quite a few weapons out there, but there is no doubt thousands of lives would be saved - not all, but a great number.
    If you plan to buy back each gun for say an average $500, it would cost around $75 billions to buy back half the guns in the country. You don't need to do it all in one year, you could do it over 3 years and so it would cost "only" $25 billion dollars a year, which isn't that much for the Federal budget. It's far, far less than the F35 program, and might actually do more for the national security of this country.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrk5150 View Post
    You know - and bear with me for a second - in coaching youth football, we always discussed how you get your kids to consistently do X - usually be an aggressive hard hitting team, but the X really doesn't matter. The answer is culture - it's not about a drill, or a scheme, and it's not something you do quickly - it's an entire approach to how you go about running your team. It's something you reinforce with every minute of every practice. It's how you go about everything.

    And unfortunately, that's the answer here. It's a much, much larger cultural thing that has to be changed, and it cannot happen quickly, simply by human nature. And even more unfortunately, we have a sizable percentage of our population who won't even engage in the conversation, because they don't really, fundamentally, see an issue with the violence. This kind of violence is an acceptable cost to maintain their rights and their view of the world.

    I will GUARANTEE you there is a significant chunk of our elected governmental officials, and that includes our dear POTUS, who deep down don't give a flying fuck about these incidents. They care about their power, and how they can keep their power. And when THAT is your "leadership", we don't have a fucking chance.
    Okay, but how do you reconcile a precipitous drop in violent crime, including gun crime and murder, since 1990, at the same time gun laws were liberalized, while at the same time there's no correlation between strict gun laws and decreases in overall homicides? And I don't mean to imply causation, and it is worth pointing out that mass shootings statistically are getting deadlier. But they are still a tiny, tiny fraction of the overall problem.

    I'm unsure anyone is against doing what we can to curb as much violence as we can. But it's hard to ignore that, ultimately, the one thing standing between individual rights and their elimination is the right of citizens to defend themselves.

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  6. #3574
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Dreamer View Post
    There is a way to sgnificantly reduce gun violence without touching the 2nd amendment. Right now there are around 300 millions guns on the street in this country. If you managed to cut this number in half, there would still be quite a few weapons out there, but there is no doubt thousands of lives would be saved - not all, but a great number.
    If you plan to buy back each gun for say an average $500, it would cost around $75 billions to buy back half the guns in the country. You don't need to do it all in one year, you could do it over 3 years and so it would cost "only" $25 billion dollars a year, which isn't that much for the Federal budget. It's far, far less than the F35 program, and might actually do more for the national security of this country.
    Have you seen some of those guns? No one is bringing in Glock .45s No offense, but that just a very silly way to control guns. It's for meth addicts who can get ahold of grampaws .22 pistol that hasn't been fired in decades
    Regardless this will be out of the news cycle in a day or so and we.ll just wait for the next lunatic, that can get a gun in his hands to do the same
    Last edited by rchop84; 11.08.18 at 03:05 PM.
    Dealing with it.

  7. #3575
    Atomic Punk I Coulda Hada VH's Avatar
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    I saw one of my sales counterparts today and he informed me that he lives walking distance from that bar.
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  8. #3576
    Emperor of VHLinks.com Brett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I Coulda Hada VH View Post
    I saw one of my sales counterparts today and he informed me that he lives walking distance from that bar.
    Iím sure he lives in the apartments that we used to live in years ago. Basically right across the street. Itís kind of in a residential area.
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  9. #3577
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Dreamer View Post
    There is a way to sgnificantly reduce gun violence without touching the 2nd amendment. Right now there are around 300 millions guns on the street in this country. If you managed to cut this number in half, there would still be quite a few weapons out there, but there is no doubt thousands of lives would be saved - not all, but a great number.
    If you plan to buy back each gun for say an average $500, it would cost around $75 billions to buy back half the guns in the country. You don't need to do it all in one year, you could do it over 3 years and so it would cost "only" $25 billion dollars a year, which isn't that much for the Federal budget. It's far, far less than the F35 program, and might actually do more for the national security of this country.
    People who commit suicide will find another way, and why should we assume that a significant number of people otherwise engaged in criminal activity would voluntarily turn in their weapons to the government? So how does this exactly eliminate gun deaths?

  10. #3578
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    Quote Originally Posted by lovemachine97(Version 2) View Post
    People who commit suicide will find another way, and why should we assume that a significant number of people otherwise engaged in criminal activity would voluntarily turn in their weapons to the government? So how does this exactly eliminate gun deaths?
    It doesn't and you can't.

    We've had two suicidal airline pilots recently kill more people by deliberately crashing planes (Germanwings and Malaysia Airlines) than we've had in these shootings and I don't hear a whole lot of handwringing about that.

    And the next pilot that decides to do that can easily take out over 200 people in one fell swoop. Where's the concern and "we need to do something" for that?
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  11. #3579
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    Quote Originally Posted by lovemachine97(Version 2) View Post
    People who commit suicide will find another way, and why should we assume that a significant number of people otherwise engaged in criminal activity would voluntarily turn in their weapons to the government? So how does this exactly eliminate gun deaths?
    Suicides would certainly go down if gun
    ownership did. America is in a tricky spot. The truth is that the gun problem over the short term can only be addresses by trampling individual rights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Get The Show On The Road View Post
    It doesn't and you can't.

    We've had two suicidal airline pilots recently kill more people by deliberately crashing planes (Germanwings and Malaysia Airlines) than we've had in these shootings and I don't hear a whole lot of handwringing about that.

    And the next pilot that decides to do that can easily take out over 200 people in one fell swoop. Where's the concern and "we need to do something" for that?
    Most people don't have access to a plane but you're not wrong on the overall point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by It's Mike View Post
    Most people don't have access to a plane but you're not wrong on the overall point.

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    You're right, they don't. And it's extremely rare. But I'm guessing that the amount of people that commit gun crimes like this is also extremely rare.

    We've had cretins mowing people down with cars, crashing airplanes, blowing up buildings, yet it is always the gun crime that brings out the "we've got to do something" crowd.

    It's a humanity problem, the implements change but the problem remains.
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  14. #3582
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    Gun violence is not only of one kind - most of it is the drunk husband shooting his wife, the gangs shooting at each other in the street, etc, etc. Less guns, less violence, it's pretty simple.
    I think a number of people make the mistake of always finding an example that can never be prevented. Let's call it example A. "See, even if you enact (insert here any sensible proposal to move things forward), you can never prevent A."
    Well maybe. But you would still be able to drastically reduce a number of other gun deaths. Not being able to prevent EVERYTHING shouldn't be an excuse to do nothing. It would be like giving up on speed limits on roads because we will never be able to prevent all car accidents. Some ppl, many ppl will still have guns. But less overall. And that would be a good thing. It's just a simple numbers game, and it has worked in many other places.
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  15. #3583
    Atomic Punk Get The Show On The Road's Avatar
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    This guy didn't need a gun to kill his wife.

    https://kdvr.com/2018/11/06/christop...ung-daughters/

    Gangbangers use a lot of illegal weapons to cause their mayhem.

    The guns aren't the problem. They don't shoot by themselves. Its the people using them that are the problem.
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  16. #3584
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    Quote Originally Posted by Get The Show On The Road View Post
    You're right, they don't. And it's extremely rare. But I'm guessing that the amount of people that commit gun crimes like this is also extremely rare.

    We've had cretins mowing people down with cars, crashing airplanes, blowing up buildings, yet it is always the gun crime that brings out the "we've got to do something" crowd.

    It's a humanity problem, the implements change but the problem remains.
    It's not as rare as we would hope sadly. A one off mass shooting is one thing. These are not one offs.

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  17. #3585
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    Quote Originally Posted by It's Mike View Post
    Suicides would certainly go down if gun
    ownership did. America is in a tricky spot. The truth is that the gun problem over the short term can only be addresses by trampling individual rights.

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    Maybe I just need to be nudged in the right direction, and I realize the overwhelming stats (amongst men) but how does someone get to a place where they are ready to end it all, but they don't have a gun so they give up? I mean, Robin Williams and Chris Cornell used a belt and an exercise band, respectively. My uncle had a gun; he used pills.

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Dreamer View Post
    Gun violence is not only of one kind - most of it is the drunk husband shooting his wife, the gangs shooting at each other in the street, etc, etc. Less guns, less violence, it's pretty simple.
    I think a number of people make the mistake of always finding an example that can never be prevented. Let's call it example A. "See, even if you enact (insert here any sensible proposal to move things forward), you can never prevent A."
    Well maybe. But you would still be able to drastically reduce a number of other gun deaths. Not being able to prevent EVERYTHING shouldn't be an excuse to do nothing. It would be like giving up on speed limits on roads because we will never be able to prevent all car accidents. Some ppl, many ppl will still have guns. But less overall. And that would be a good thing. It's just a simple numbers game, and it has worked in many other places.
    And our government estimates one-third to one-half of all gun homicides are a result of the drug war. That's a place to start. I just don't see how voluntarily giving up firearms would lead to the people who commit crimes with firearms giving them up. I see a disconnect on that.

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