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  1. #1366
    Atomic Punk Wruff_ajax's Avatar
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    Default The Incredulity of St Thomas



    Now Thomas, one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
    But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

    A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

    Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

    Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

    ~John 20
    ☩ ☩ ☩

  2. #1367
    Atomic Punk I Coulda Hada VH's Avatar
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    The animal sacrifices in the Old Testament were symbolic of the ultimate sacrifice in the New Testament. The Atonement of Jesus Christ was a one time event that does not need to be repeated. This is why the apostles were told to eat and drink in remembrance of the Savior. It was clearly a spiritual ritual, not a physical ritual, since Jesus had not yet been crucified at the time of the last supper. If the wafers and wine were literally changed into the actual flesh and blood of Christ, wouldn’t this be akin to Jesus being sacrificed every single time communion is performed?

  3. #1368
    Atomic Punk Wruff_ajax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I Coulda Hada VH View Post
    The animal sacrifices in the Old Testament were symbolic of the ultimate sacrifice in the New Testament. The Atonement of Jesus Christ was a one time event that does not need to be repeated. This is why the apostles were told to eat and drink in remembrance of the Savior. It was clearly a spiritual ritual, not a physical ritual, since Jesus had not yet been crucified at the time of the last supper. If the wafers and wine were literally changed into the actual flesh and blood of Christ, wouldn’t this be akin to Jesus being sacrificed every single time communion is performed?
    Actually, Jesus did not say "eat and drink in remembrance of me". He said "DO THIS in remembrance of me".

    Do what? He's speaking of the prayer and ritual which he was just performing for them, and is telling them to repeat these from now on going forward.

    What exactly? Let's look....

    From Luke 22....
    After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, “Take this and divide it among you. For I tell you I will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”

    And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”

    In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.."

    -Luke 22

    So, Jesus is telling them to pray that prayer of consecration over the bread and wine, declaring it then his His body and blood as He did (nothing about a "symbol" here, or anywhere. To the contrary, Christ emphasizes that it truly is His literal body and blood - hence all that info I posted yesterday. And go read John 6). In fact, most of his followers turned away and no longer followed him because of this; "this is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?". From that time many of his followers turned away and no longer followed him.. (reminds me of Protestants today, and many Catholics too, unfortunately, as evident from that pew article I posted yesterday as well as the testimony here yesterday of a member of the Catholic Church. In fact about 3/4 of Catholics deny this teaching of our Lord as evidenced in their denial of his Real Presence in the Eucharist (the bread and wine of the Last Supper. The same bread and wine on the altar at every Catholic mass).

    "Do this in remembrance of me" indeed.

    Look at the prayers of consecration said at every mass. They're doing exactly what Jesus instructed...

    P: On the day before he was to suffer,
    he took bread in his holy and venerable hands,
    and with eyes raised to heaven
    to you, O God, his almighty Father,
    giving you thanks, he said the blessing,
    broke the bread
    and gave it to his disciples, saying:

    He bows slightly.

    TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND EAT OF IT,
    FOR THIS IS MY BODY,
    WHICH WILL BE GIVEN UP FOR YOU.

    He shows the consecrated host to the people, places it again on
    the paten, and genuflects in adoration.

    P: In a similar way, when supper was ended

    he took this precious chalice
    in his holy and venerable hands,
    and once more giving you thanks, he said the blessing
    and gave the chalice to his disciples, saying:

    TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND DRINK FROM IT,
    FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD,
    THE BLOOD OF THE NEW AND ETERNAL COVENANT,
    WHICH WILL BE POURED OUT FOR YOU AND FOR MANY
    FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.
    DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME.

    He shows the chalice to the people, places it on the corporal,
    and genuflects in adoration.

    P: The mystery of faith.

    C: We proclaim your Death, O Lord,
    and profess your Resurrection
    until you come again.



    Far from being a bloody sacrifice murdering Jesus again at every mass, this is a bloodless (as at the Last Supper) re-presentation of Christ's one sacrifice. It's exactly what Jesus commanded of us.


    Lastly, I'll leave you with the Apostle St Paul regarding this...

    "For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

    So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves."


    Tell me then how a person eating mere bread and wine could be guilty of "sinning against the body and blood of the Lord."
    How is it possible that people consuming mere bread and wine "eat and drink judgement on themselves"?

    They "eat and drink judgement on themselves" because they do not regard it for what it is - the body and blood of Christ. They eat and drink the body and blood of Christ in and "unworthy manner" (unbelieving of what it truly is, and irreverent of it) and are therefor "guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord".


    A fellow Catholic on here said yesterday that he didn't think God will judge us regarding our personal beliefs and how we approach the Eucharist. Well, as Paul makes very clear here, we are indeed judged by God on this central tenet of our Christian faith.


    Long post, but I gotta run, so can't look it over. I hope you read it all.

    Peace
    ☩ ☩ ☩

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  5. #1369
    Atomic Punk Van Squalen's Avatar
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    The only judgment awaiting us in the next world will be from ourselves. Bank on it.

  6. #1370
    Unchained Sam Vs. Dave's Avatar
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    I always figured at the last supper that Jesus was just asking us to pray before meals. Remember our provider and all that.

  7. #1371
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    The Official Religion of Secularists in Evolution.
    "The VH Universe is built on a wall that separates CVH from SVH. Tell either side there's no wall, you've bought a war. Or a slaughter." Lt. Joshi - LAPD

  8. #1372
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    Great news today here. The pope's right hand money man failed his appeal.

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-...tions/11431738
    Most rock journalism is people who can't write, interviewing people who can't talk, for people who can't read. - Frank Zappa

  9. #1373
    Atomic Punk bklynboy68's Avatar
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    Yale Computer Scientist David Gelernter Abandons Darwinism

    22 Aug 2019




    Renowned Yale computer scientist David Gelernter claims that he is abandoning Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution.

    Gelernter, who formerly served as a fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, published a column earlier this year detailing his move away from evolutionary theory. The column, which was titled “Giving Up Darwin,” provides Gelernter’s arguments against Darwinism.


    Darwin’s theory predicts that new life forms evolve gradually from old ones in a constantly branching, spreading tree of life. Those brave new Cambrian creatures must therefore have had Precambrian predecessors, similar but not quite as fancy and sophisticated. They could not have all blown out suddenly, like a bunch of geysers. Each must have had a closely related predecessor, which must have had its own predecessors: Darwinian evolution is gradual, step-by-step. All those predecessors must have come together, further back, into a series of branches leading down to the (long ago) trunk.

    But those predecessors of the Cambrian creatures are missing. Darwin himself was disturbed by their absence from the fossil record. He believed they would turn up eventually. Some of his contemporaries (such as the eminent Harvard biologist Louis Agassiz) held that the fossil record was clear enough already, and showed that Darwin’s theory was wrong. Perhaps only a few sites had been searched for fossils, but they had been searched straight down. The Cambrian explosion had been unearthed, and beneath those Cambrian creatures their Precambrian predecessors should have been waiting—and weren’t. In fact, the fossil record as a whole lacked the upward-branching structure Darwin predicted.



    A group of scientists, including Gelernter and Meyer, sat down to discuss evolution this summer in a conversation that was hosted by Stanford University’s Hoover Institution.




    Gelernter, echoing a message from scientist Stephen C. Meyer, argues that science must quickly move on from Darwinism and towards a more, open, nuanced perspective on the creation of life on earth.

    He now poses a final challenge. Whether biology will rise to this last one as well as it did to the first, when his theory upset every apple cart, remains to be seen. How cleanly and quickly can the field get over Darwin, and move on?—with due allowance for every Darwinist’s having to study all the evidence for himself? There is one of most important questions facing science in the 21st century.


    Gelernter argues that intelligent design, the notion that life on earth was designed by a higher power, is an “absolutely serious argument.” Gelernter cautions his peers in academia against using anti-religious bigotry to justify their dismissals of the theory of intelligent design.

    Gelernter was injured in 1993 when he opened a package addressed to him from Ted Kaczynski, also known as the Unabomber. “My first thought was along the lines of: Bombs must be going off all over campus this morning,” Gelernter wrote in a book published in 1997. “It didn’t occur to me that I could possibly have been singled out as a target. I was not in a murder-prone line of work; I had no personal enemies, on account not of being lovable but of being obscure.”


    https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2019/...ons-darwinism/
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  10. #1374
    Sinner's Swing! BlindtotheWorld's Avatar
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    Pope Says It’s ‘an Honor That the Americans Attack Me’

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/04/w...ns-attack.html


    Hmmm.....is that really the right tone for the leader of the Church? Whether they attack you are not, they are part of your flock. Where's the love and humility now? What's good for the goose, is good for the gander.
    ]"Problem is Van Halen doesn't miss you. Or me. Or any of us." - Little Dreamer

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  12. #1375
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlindtotheWorld View Post
    Pope Says It’s ‘an Honor That the Americans Attack Me’

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/04/w...ns-attack.html


    Hmmm.....is that really the right tone for the leader of the Church? Whether they attack you are not, they are part of your flock. Where's the love and humility now? What's good for the goose, is good for the gander.
    He doesn't like to do his job.
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    "My beef is people thinking Bon Jovi is good cuz they sold lots of records to housewives." -tango

    "But being number one doesn’t really mean jack fuck all. We sold twice as many records as other records that year (1984) that landed in the Number One position." ~Eddie Van Halen

  13. #1376
    Atomic Punk japeape's Avatar
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    Seems an odd stance, for a Pope.
    Graver, Walking Ed, refugee from CVH & proud tone chaser...

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlindtotheWorld View Post
    Pope Says It’s ‘an Honor That the Americans Attack Me’

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/04/w...ns-attack.html


    Hmmm.....is that really the right tone for the leader of the Church? Whether they attack you are not, they are part of your flock. Where's the love and humility now? What's good for the goose, is good for the gander.
    I'm always hesitant to read too much into these quotes that are short of context, but you also have to read the trend lines here. This pope has far more radical intentions for the Church than any of his predecessors and hasn't been shy about voicing it on previous occasions.

    I personally find it disappointing, so he should be honored, apparently.
    CNN may think my opinion matters, but you shouldn't.

  16. #1378
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
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    The press on both sides picks their enemies and starts their own wars. Nothing to see here

    Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

  17. #1379
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    Quote Originally Posted by It's Mike View Post
    The press on both sides picks their enemies and starts their own wars. Nothing to see here

    Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk
    It's not really the comment, it's the disregard he has for traditional Catholic teaching that has been the issue. He hasn't been shy about demoting traditional bishops and Cardinals while promoting the progressive ones. Anecdotally I know more people that dislike this pope than like him.
    CNN may think my opinion matters, but you shouldn't.

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    I am not Catholic but I do find one general rule when it comes to this Pope. If you hate Trump, you like this Pope. Vice versa holds as well. Just with the 20 or so Catholic friends of mine and their wives.

    I do know my grandmother would despise him but she was hard core. Like Mel Gibson without the hate.

 

 

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