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  1. #31
    Atomic Punk edwardv's Avatar
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    I'm a jew went to hebrew school etc. But I came to accept Yeshua as the messiah in my 40s. You know like Saul of Taursus did.
    EVH 1979: Well, actually it's not much of a vacation, because we run everything ourselves. We design our own album cover, we have to be in the office every day to sign checks - the whole corporation revolves around us. Nothing can be done without our approval. We even have photo approval.

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  3. #32
    Hot For Teacher Pat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VH122 View Post
    Well being born and raised Catholic I believe that there's more than enough evidence of our Lord's existence.
    The proof to me is the over 20,000+ miracles listed by the Church.
    Totally respect your position, VH122, I was born and raised heavy duty Roman Catholic myself, but of course, no longer.

    I think the salient point here lies in your own words: "20,000+ miracles listed by the Church". Respectfully, it is in the churches best interests to foster a belief in "miracles", and what better way than to "list" those miracles and subsequently proclaim them to be true. There's an obvious vested interest - a bit like ret-conning "prophecies" after the fact and asserting truth claims about them. I don't believe the church itself is a reliable source with regard to verifying the voracity of miracle claims - far from it in fact.

    Essentially, it's a case of "it's a miracle because we say it is", which, for me, is simply a variant on "the bible's true because it says so". I care passionately whether what I believe is actually true, and cannot accept truth claims merely because they originate from an "authority" like a religious body.

    When judged by the strictest, peer reviewed, falsifiable, scientific method, (the best way of determining the reality of a claim IMO), no so called miracle has come even close to attaining the required burden of proof. Anecdote and church "reports" do not constitute scientific evidence.

    Again, can I state, I am completely respectful of your supernatural beliefs, and particularly so in the case of Catholicism as I've explained.

    Cheers!
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    This is a cool thread.
    All I can say is in terms of long standing religion in general, It's amazing how many similarities there are within the faiths. Sure, there are differences that have sparked wars....based on the prophets themselves, or the interpretation (or misinterpretation) by others of another faith. But the basic premise is very similar.
    One thing I do find fascinating is the often over simplification by certain atheist groups.
    That's not a dig on atheism....I totally feel that what you believe, is what you believe, but I mean the atheists who go out of their way to attack those that do hold faith in their lives, to the point of they themselves almost religious in their faith of non-existence.

    Often these people will attack a person of faith's intelligence, or their place, or contribution to "progressive society", and that is wrong.

    There are, and have been many people of science who simply state that beyond the confines of physics, none of can say with absolute certainty one way or the other, what happens after death, is there a "God", "Gods", and if so, what is this God or Gods? Is it a spiritual entity, an energy, or a distant form of life that we emerged from?

    One thing that I take issue with is that those who so readily go out of their way to discredit faith, often take the Bible as a key example of proof that the whole thing is BS when read or interpreted in a literal sense.
    You are talking about not one book, but a collection of stories, or books told, re-told, translated, and re-translated, and amended umpteen times.

    It's not literal, and that's the point. Even periods of time in days, years etc. are heavily questionable.

    If you look in Genesis the definition of each facet of creation is documented in "days", but looking at other scripture, and what a "day" represented, a complete cycle of time, according to many scholars this is most likely misinterpreted by "logical thinkers". In terms of "on the first day", "on the second day"....Etc. a day refers to a period, of time, or a cycle that defines a measure of time.

    Put it this way...also in the Bible, there are descriptions of people living hundreds of years....Of course impossible by our current modern calendar, but again...this is a misinterpretation of a definable measure of time which the writer was conveying.
    It doesn't make sense to many today who look at things with a critical thinking perspective of logic, but then that's the essence of faith.
    We can't understand everything, as much as we want to, and though there are a lot of things in scripture that for whatever reason do not make sense to us, if kept in the perspective of the time in which these books of the bible, the Quran....whatever....then that's where the element of Faith lives and breathes.

    That aside, there are some basic elements in these books, that to this day still have a good message, and that still hold up, and even still shape our laws.

    Do these messages still have relevancy in today's progressive society? Many don't, but there are some that do, and will continue to be part of society.

    That said, I am not particularly religious, and am always fascinated by science, but I'd be the last person to say with absolute certainty that there is no God/creator/afterlife.
    We simply don't know.
    Me personally, in the past two decades, I had two events happen to me personally that have made me think twice....I mean absolute shit your pants moments that solidified my feelings on faith, and the afterlife.

    I won't mention the first event here, but I will share with you that on the day my Father died....Prior to me finding out that day...I was working, and all of a sudden I just got this uneasy feeling about him. I mean we spoke regularly, and I was going to call him that night, but right around 3:30 in the afternoon, I was just grabbing a coffee, and this rush of emotion just came over me. It was so powerful, and I actually ended up with tears in my eyes. I couldn't explain what was happening...I just had this odd combination of this odd closeness and love, but at the same time this major anxiety.

    I pulled myself out of it, shook it off, and went back to work.
    2 hours later, I got back home, and my wife told me to call my cousin right away. I did, and that's when I got word that my dad had just had an accident a few hours earlier, and, had just passed away at the hospital....right around 3:15pm.

    I cannot explain this...I don't believe in psychic stuff...I simply have no answer, or logical explanation for what had happened to me. This experience rattled me almost if not equally as the news of his death.

    Me and him never had a mushy or particularly close Father/Son relationship...He was a hard ass.....So this weird emotional response to me was very foreign. There was no logical reason for it. I was immersed in work, and it's not like my mind to wander to sentimental thoughts as a rule.
    It was very odd, and gave me pause in regards to faith, and life after death. Guys....The other thing about this, is that when this whole event happened, I swear, I could actually smell him on me. It was like he had given me a hug or something.
    Just bizzare.
    Last edited by we die young; 03.27.17 at 01:18 PM.

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  6. #34
    Hot For Teacher Pat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by we die young View Post
    One thing I do find fascinating is the often over simplification by certain atheist groups.
    That's not a dig on atheism....I totally feel that what you believe, is what you believe, but I mean the atheists who go out of their way to attack those that do hold faith in their lives.

    Often these people will attack a person of faith's intelligence, or their contribution to "progressive society", and that is wrong.
    There are, and have been many people of science who simply state that beyond the confines of physics, none of can say with absolute certainty one way or the other, what happens after death, is there a "God", "Gods", and if so, what is this God or Gods? Is it a spiritual entity, an energy, or a distant form of life that we emerged from?
    Well, I hope you're not including me in the "attack atheist" group!!

    If I could take issue with your comment above, it is a common misconception to make statements reference the "beliefs" of atheists - and it's a bit of a non sequitur. Atheism is quite simply a position on a single issue - is there a god? That's it. There are no tenets of atheism, no rituals, no rules etc. I suspect most atheists, including myself, largely believe in the same things you do outside of the supernatural.

    The burden of proof lies with the one making the claim, and if I reject your claim because you are unable to supply any evidence, it is not the same as making an absolute proclamation on the subject one way or the other. Again, the burden of proof lies entirely with the theist - I have none, since I am not actually making any claims.
    Last edited by Pat; 03.27.17 at 01:47 PM.
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    For me it's really simple. It comes down to faith and the evidence of a higher power is enough for me.

    We all have faith in something. One has faith that they're going to get in their car...go to work and arrive home safely without being involved in a car wreck and dying.

    I just choose God/Jesus.

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  9. #36
    Atomic Punk James in New York's Avatar
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    What if pure awareness, pure consciousness is the only thing that there is and ever was. Pure imagination.

    You're just pure consciousness, pure imagination... existing inside nothingness. Throughout all of eternity you imagine random events and lives to live out of pure imagination...you just keep creating more and more random lives and experiences...

    at some point... eventually you will find yourself living the life you are right now and an infinite amount of lives before and after this one.

    You are pure imagination lost in it's own imaginings.
    A dream of separation.
    From what you truly are, which is only Love.

    You're god playing a game with yourself. The only rule of the game is to NOT realize you are playing a game, because the truth is a bit too scary to confront head on.

    So, eventually you invent religions...that don't quite explain You...you don't even believe in your Self... and then slowly you ease the fear and gently....you see that it's all You in love with you...and the dissolving of the false you, the ego, the fear, the separation... into who you are, wholeness, oneness, having never left your self truly....

    ...only took a walk in a strange dream of separation and existence...and this knowing...knowing knowing itself...
    that is true love, heavenly, true beauty beyond concepts, words, time, and space (which was your prison in this dream)...

    Imagine?
    "Be willing to be a beginner every single morning.”

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  11. #37
    Hot For Teacher Pat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaboChris View Post
    For me it's really simple. It comes down to faith and the evidence of a higher power is enough for me.

    We all have faith in something. One has faith that they're going to get in their car...go to work and arrive home safely without being involved in a car wreck and dying.

    I just choose God/Jesus.
    I don't think your car analogy quite works in this context? You're taking a calculated risk getting into your car, which you can evaluate based on your previous, real world, actual experience. Stating you have "faith" you'll arrive safely is kind of another way saying you "hope" you won't be involved in something nasty based on your understanding of demonstrated motoring statistics.

    IMHO, "faith" from a religious standpoint literally means to believe in something without evidence.

    You state you do have evidence, I'd be extremely interested to hear what that is, as I'm genuinely open minded, and would be intrigued to learn about any information you have!
    Last edited by Pat; 03.27.17 at 01:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat View Post
    I don't think your car analogy quite works in this context? You're taking a calculated risk getting into your car, which you can evaluate based on your previous, real world, actual experience. Stating you have "faith" you'll arrive safely is kind of another way saying you "hope" you won't be involved in something nasty based on your understanding of demonstrated motoring statistics.

    IMHO, "faith" from a religious standpoint literally means to believe in something without evidence.

    You state you do have evidence, I'd be extremely interested to hear what that is, as I'm genuinely open minded, and would be intrigued to learn about any information you have!
    The only evidence I have is the history of the church and my own personal circumstances/life experiences. Good enough for me.

    You can't prove God so there's no point in having that debate.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat View Post
    Well, I hope you're not including me in the "attack atheist" group!!

    If I could take issue with your comment above, it is a common misconception to make statements reference the "beliefs" of atheists - and it's a bit of a non sequitur. Atheism is quite simply a position on a single issue - is there a god? That's it. There are no tenets of atheism, no rituals, no rules etc. I suspect most atheists, including myself, largely believe in the same things you do outside of the supernatural.

    The burden of proof lies with the one making the claim, and if I reject your claim because you are unable to supply any evidence, it is not the same as making an absolute proclamation on the subject one way or the other. Again, the burden of proof lies entirely with the theist - I have none, since I am not actually making any claims.
    Absolutely not. No...I'm referring to people who tend to take things to the extreme in the media. People with absolute vitriol on the subject of religion, and to your point, taking their brand of atheism to the next level, and denouncing anything to do with religion. It goes beyond the root of atheism, which is as you stated, relating to the existence of a creator.
    Not you, or anyone who's posted here my man!
    Last edited by we die young; 03.27.17 at 02:02 PM.

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    Hot For Teacher Pat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by we die young View Post
    Absolutely not. No...I'm referring to people who tend to take things to the extreme in the media. People with absolute vitriol on the subject of religion.
    Not you my man!
    Cool, thanks, we die young!

    Great community here at the links.
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  18. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat View Post
    I don't think your car analogy quite works in this context? You're taking a calculated risk getting into your car, which you can evaluate based on your previous, real world, actual experience. Stating you have "faith" you'll arrive safely is kind of another way saying you "hope" you won't be involved in something nasty based on your understanding of demonstrated motoring statistics.

    IMHO, "faith" from a religious standpoint literally means to believe in something without evidence.

    You state you do have evidence, I'd be extremely interested to hear what that is, as I'm genuinely open minded, and would be intrigued to learn about any information you have!
    I think the evidence is all around you if you choose to look.

    To believe that there is no God or higher power is to believe that everything we see in the Universe happened by chance. Therefore it is all one big accident. The Universe just came into being on its own and the stars and galaxies just popped up by random chance.

    Then human life and intelligence just evolved from randomness with no thought put into it. We just so happened to end up here on Earth with an abundance of everything we need to survive by happenstance.

    While I'm no religious zealot and I don't even go to church, in my mind the odds that everything we see simply happening by accident are a lot less than there being some form of higher being that created it. You can call it God or whatever you want but I don't believe that we're all here by a matter of accident.

    Of course I could be completely wrong but if I am it's no loss on my end.
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  20. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Get The Show On The Road View Post
    I think the evidence is all around you if you choose to look.

    To believe that there is no God or higher power is to believe that everything we see in the Universe happened by chance. Therefore it is all one big accident. The Universe just came into being on its own and the stars and galaxies just popped up by random chance.

    Then human life and intelligence just evolved from randomness with no thought put into it. We just so happened to end up here on Earth with an abundance of everything we need to survive by happenstance.

    While I'm no religious zealot and I don't even go to church, in my mind the odds that everything we see simply happening by accident are a lot less than there being some form of higher being that created it. You can call it God or whatever you want but I don't believe that we're all here by a matter of accident.

    Of course I could be completely wrong but if I am it's no loss on my end.
    Yep.

    I'm in your camp as well. I can't accept it's all an accident.

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    Atomic Punk Get The Show On The Road's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaboChris View Post
    Yep.

    I'm in your camp as well. I can't accept it's all an accident.
    One further point as well. If one wishes to deny that Jesus Christ is the Son of God then one must accept that he willingly sacrificed himself for nothing. That he engaged in a war with the Jewish High Priests and the Roman Empire knowing that he would be executed for no reason other than to make a handful of less desireables feel better about themselves and their lot in life.

    That makes absolutely no sense. Nor does it make sense that his followers continued to openly pass on his message when they saw what fate had befallen Him.

    I suppose every single one of them could be mentally ill, but I find that to be highly unlikely. I also find it unlikely that if it was a big sham that it would take root in the way that it did.

    Again, I could be wrong. But let's not act like being an atheist is the only "logical" or "rational" way to approach this question because it's not.
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    Francis Sellers Collins (born April 14, 1950) is an Americanphysician-geneticist noted for his discoveries of disease genes and his leadership of the Human Genome Project. He is director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) in Bethesda, Maryland, USA.

    Before being appointed director of the NIH, Collins led the Human Genome Project and other genomics research initiatives as director of the National Human Genome Research Institute (NHGRI), one of the 27 institutes and centers at NIH. Before joining NHGRI, he earned a reputation as a gene hunter at the University of Michigan. He has been elected to the Institute of Medicine and the National Academy of Sciences, and has received the Presidential Medal of Freedom and the National Medal of Science.

    Collins also has written a number of books on science, medicine, and religion, including the New York Timesbestseller, The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief.

    After leaving the helm of NHGRI and before becoming director of the NIH, he founded and served as president of The BioLogos Foundation, which promotes discourse on therelationship between science and religion and advocates the perspective that belief in Christianity can be reconciled with acceptance of evolution and science, especially through the advancement of evolutionary creation.[3] In 2009 Pope Benedict XVI appointed Collins to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences.




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  25. #45
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    Originally posted by Get The Show On The Road:"I think the evidence is all around you if you choose to look.

    To believe that there is no God or higher power is to believe that everything we see in the universe happened by chance. Therefore it is all one big accident. The Universe just came into being on its own and the stars and galaxies just popped up by random chance.

    Then human life and intelligence just evolved from randomness with thought put into it. We just so happened to end up here on Earth with an abundance of everything we need to survive by happenstance.

    While I'm no religious zealot and I don't even go to church, in my mind the odds that everything we see simply happening by accident are a lot less than there being some form of higher being that created it. You can call it God or whatever you want but I don't believe that we're all here by a matter of accident.

    Of course I could be completely wrong but if I am it's no loss on my end."
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I guess where I come from is that it's easy to say that all things can be explained away with physics, math, and evolution theory.
    I'm being pretty simplistic, and broad here, but just to the point that a certain scientist may claim that consiousness, feelings, and emotion.....a sense of being can be explained away by nothing more than electrical impulses and chemicals in our brains.
    Well, that's fine, and totally true in terms of biomechanics, but it misses the mark on a lot of levels. There is a uniqueness to all of us, and we hold memories, dear to us, as well as bland, or even downright horrific. It's not all about existing in an atonamous state of mere self preservation.....Maybe evolution has played a part in this, sure, but look at the theories of the creation of our universe. In general, most scientific explanation addresses the process, or the vehicle, but will eliminate intelligent design or creation as a possibility, because rightfully (at this point in time), we can't see any viable proof of this. Fair enough, but when you take an unbiased look at the structures of biology, it's hard to not, even for a fleeting moment, that there might just be a higher power at play. Take a look at musculature.....How it aligns perfectly efficiently...How tendons, and ligaments are routed, and fastened to bone/muscle tissues, and lubricated. How nerves are routed, and encapsulated for maximum efficiency, and accurate delivery of touch/pain signals. It's really very remarkable. Sure, evolution is a key part, but beyond evolution, it's hard not to fathom that the formation of these basic structures has not had some form of intelligent intervention. After all....All animal/mammal life is essentially a form of biomechanical machine that performs tasks that the brain (which is amazing in itself) controls. It's actually pretty fascinating to be honest.
    The Big Bang is a genius theory, and it can actually be intertwined into religious scriptures accounts as well, but from the pure scientific perspective, there's the Big Bang, and before that, a huge mass from which the universe was formed from the mass ejection, but then, what formed this mass?
    Was this mass always there? If not what was before? Is space truly infinite? or is it as some theorize essentially a loop?

    These answers exist, yet we don't know (as of yet) how to achieve answers to these questions, We can't see proof one way or the other, and these are in fact still theories, so does our sense of reality, logic, physics, etc. really apply to everything, either in our creation/evolution, or the universe itself?

    Over the past 3 decades, there's been some very interesting study regarding organic structures....Everything from crystals, to plant life.....and trying to understand if these forms are random, or in fact of mathematically precise origin.
    For many years, the theory was that there is a randomness, and geometric forms simply do not exist in nature, but what has been found is that with the advent of more powerful technology able to dive much deeper into these formations, that there are in fact geometically perfect structures within the structures that provide the grid work if you will for these lifeforms.
    Nature is not all random and by chance. We think in mathematical terms when we create. It's not all that far fetched to think at some point in the history of our species (or any other species for that matter) that there has not been some intervention.

    I'm not an alien nut, There's a lot of loons out there, but maybe, just maybe, there is something out there beyond our capabilities to see at this point in time that we evolved from. If the Universe is truly infinite, then it's hard to fathom that we are the only intelligent life. Maybe this intelligent life is what we know as "God".
    It's very hard to say, but it's very interesting to talk about.
    Last edited by we die young; 03.27.17 at 02:59 PM.

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