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  1. #1
    Banned! Motherload's Avatar
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    Default Here's How Every Argument Against A Minimum Wage Hike Is Bullshit

    Yes, it's Jezebel, but none the less - I think it's an entertaining read. Is it debatable? Sure - but there are some really great points here:

    http://kitchenette.jezebel.com/heres...-is-1728874042

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    Quote Originally Posted by Motherload View Post
    Yes, it's Jezebel, but none the less - I think it's an entertaining read. Is it debatable? Sure - but there are some really great points here:

    http://kitchenette.jezebel.com/heres...-is-1728874042
    All points that have been made and countered in our thread . Nothing new.

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    Not sure why this couldn't have gone in the other thread, but the author sure wasted a lot of time typing. If ultimately, in the third paragraph, you're going to say, "[I]f your business model depends on not having to pay your employees a living wage, said business model is hopelessly broken and deserves to fail. That fact is unambiguously clear," then why go any further? There is literally no argument this person will accept that refutes that because businesses that don't play by their rules don't deserve to exist.

    I'm not saying the article is all terrible, but I do wonder if this person has thought some of these arguments through. "What’s less clear is why, if a general minimum wage hike actually would be so abjectly terrible for businesses, the restaurant trendline is moving away from the existing model—reliant on tips—and towards one built around a higher base wage." So in arguing for a mandated wage, the author is using an example of a voluntary decision where private risk is either rewarded with private profit or private losses without any idea if customers will overwhelmingly reject this model. I wonder if the writer, if the risk is mandated, is willing to let the profits remain private but put tax payers on the hook if the mandated risk results in losses.

    Either way, what happens if customers don't like this model? Servers don't uniformly, before tipping out, get 15% of their sales in tips each night. Usually it is less. And since we know there is no correlation between tipping and getting better service, how do we know that the people who are too cheap to tip as part of a meal out are simply going to show up and pay 15-20% higher prices immediately? And if it is a mandate as part of $15 across the board, aren't they even less likely to do that as discretionary income shrinks as a result of paying more for necessities? And if sales drop, we're assuming the restaurant continues to staff as if sales are booming?

    That's just one example. The original argument is all this person needs. If a business can't pay a living wage, that person's right to enter into contracts with people ought to be curbed.
    Last edited by lovemachine97(Version 2); 04.17.16 at 12:26 AM.

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  7. #6
    Banned! Motherload's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lovemachine97(Version 2) View Post
    Not sure why this couldn't have gone in the other thread, but the author sure wasted a lot of time typing. If ultimately, in the third paragraph, you're going to say, "[I]f your business model depends on not having to pay your employees a living wage, said business model is hopelessly broken and deserves to fail. That fact is unambiguously clear," then why go any further? There is literally no argument this person will accept that refutes that because businesses that don't play by their rules don't deserve to exist.

    I'm not saying the article is all terrible, but I do wonder if this person has thought some of these arguments through. "What’s less clear is why, if a general minimum wage hike actually would be so abjectly terrible for businesses, the restaurant trendline is moving away from the existing model—reliant on tips—and towards one built around a higher base wage." So in arguing for a mandated wage, the author is using an example of a voluntary decision where private risk is either rewarded with private profit or private losses without any idea if customers will overwhelmingly reject this model. I wonder if the writer, if the risk is mandated, is willing to let the profits remain private but put tax payers on the hook if the mandated risk results in losses.

    Either way, what happens if customers don't like this model? Servers don't uniformly, before tipping out, get 15% of their sales in tips each night. Usually it is less. And since we know there is no correlation between tipping and getting better service, how do we know that the people who are too cheap to tip as part of a meal out are simply going to show up and pay 15-20% higher prices immediately? And if it is a mandate as part of $15 across the board, aren't they even less likely to do that as discretionary income shrinks as a result of paying more for necessities? And if sales drop, we're assuming the restaurant continues to staff as if sales are booming?

    That's just one example. The original argument is all this person needs. If a business can't pay a living wage, that person's right to enter into contracts with people ought to be curbed.
    Maybe there really isn't an argument against: if your business model depends on not having to pay your employees a living wage, said business model is hopelessly broken and deserves to fail.

    I actually believe in this and I don't think it's playing by other's rules. It's simply the right thing to do. As a business owner, you should feel good that you are taking care of your employees and ensuring that they are not living in their car and taking a "shower" in a public bathroom before work.

    If you are going out of your way to try to find people who will work for you for next to nothing - fuck you. I hope your business dies and you lose everything. You are simply taking advantage of people who will take ANY job - as some money is better than no money. You are essentially saying as a libertarian - businesses should be able to take advantage of people who are desperate.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the new minimum wage applies to restaurants where you tip. Unless the restaurant bans tipping, raises food prices and is now paying a proper wage.

  8. #7
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motherload View Post
    Maybe there really isn't an argument against: if your business model depends on not having to pay your employees a living wage, said business model is hopelessly broken and deserves to fail.

    I actually believe in this and I don't think it's playing by other's rules. It's simply the right thing to do. As a business owner, you should feel good that you are taking care of your employees and ensuring that they are not living in their car and taking a "shower" in a public bathroom before work.

    If you are going out of your way to try to find people who will work for you for next to nothing - fuck you. I hope your business dies and you lose everything. You are simply taking advantage of people who will take ANY job - as some money is better than no money. You are essentially saying as a libertarian - businesses should be able to take advantage of people who are desperate.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the new minimum wage applies to restaurants where you tip. Unless the restaurant bans tipping, raises food prices and is now paying a proper wage.
    I worked at a min wage job for over a decade. Never lived in my car, never showered in a pubic bathroom before work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by It's Mike View Post
    I worked at a min wage job for over a decade. Never lived in my car, never showered in a pubic bathroom before work.
    Well, aren't you fucking special? Just because it never happened to you means it doesn't to others, eh?

    Where did you live during this period? Did you have exceptional expenses like prescription medications? Family to fall back on? And what were rents like during that time?

    Ever tried to come up with a damage deposit PLUS first months rent while earning min wage?

    I suspect you are/were far more privileged than you realize...

  10. #9
    Atomic Punk Dave's Dreidel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motherload View Post
    Maybe there really isn't an argument against: if your business model depends on not having to pay your employees a living wage, said business model is hopelessly broken and deserves to fail.
    Have you ever owned a business and had to pay employees?

    Let me tell you, it forever alters your point of view. There is a reason a large number of people making low wages are making low wages. Perpetually late, low quality work, don't give a shit.

    The VAST majority of low paying jobs are meant as entry level positions, or 2nd jobs for extra spending money. They are not designed to support a family of five.

    I've worked a minimum wage job, WITH a college degree. I had my day job, then after I was done working my day job, I had my hour train ride back home and then went to my night job that I believe at the time paid me a whopping $4.25 an hour.

    Many of the people who are in low paying jobs at 45 years old are there because they have made horrible life decisions, and they have also made the decision over their life to NOT work hard like I have, and NOT strive to continually improve their skill set.

    I'm at the top of my profession, and I am still working to get better. I'm learning hacking for God's sake, and I hate this computer shit, I'm a numbers guy.

    There will of course be stories of people that have had horrendous life events occur that have really given them a shitty deal, and I do truly feel for them. But I don't think many people in the minimum wage pool at the age of fifty are there because of that. They are there because they never bothered to take their education seriously, their work life seriously, and it has now caught up with them. Their horrible life decisions are THEIR fault, not mine. I've made plenty of mistakes, some of them have cost me hundreds of thousands of dollars that I would really like to have now, but they were mine, I didn't ask the government to bail me out.

    When I was 25, I was working 80 hours a week to build my career. I have little sympathy for someone who when they were 25 were satisfied with delivering pizza 25 hours a week, and sitting around smoking weed for the rest of the week, and then wonder why when they are 50 they are still making minimum wage.
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  12. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdnangel View Post
    Well, aren't you fucking special? Just because it never happened to you means it doesn't to others, eh?

    Where did you live during this period? Did you have exceptional expenses like prescription medications? Family to fall back on? And what were rents like during that time?

    Ever tried to come up with a damage deposit PLUS first months rent while earning min wage?

    I suspect you are/were far more privileged than you realize...
    Let's just force companies to pay to whatever you think is a good number then based on your personal experience. Married to a deadbeat who bailed on you? 50% raise. Father was an unemployed alcoholic? Another 50% raise. Mother abandoned the family when you were an infant? Lucky you, wages start at 46 bucks an hour for that class of people. Have a medical condition? Automatic doubling of salary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by It's Mike View Post
    Let's just force companies to pay to whatever you think is a good number then based on your personal experience. Married to a deadbeat who bailed on you? 50% raise. Father was an unemployed alcoholic? Another 50% raise. Mother abandoned the family when you were an infant? Lucky you, wages start at 46 bucks an hour for that class of people. Have a medical condition? Automatic doubling of salary.

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    Does mom bailing at 12 count? Or is that too late for my priviledged life?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Get The Show On The Road View Post
    Does mom bailing at 12 count? Or is that too late for my priviledged life?
    10 is the cutoff.

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  16. #13
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Get The Show On The Road View Post
    Does mom bailing at 12 count? Or is that too late for my priviledged life?
    Yup Fudd has the policy right. 10s the cutoff man. No lack of privilege for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by It's Mike View Post
    Yup Fudd has the policy right. 10s the cutoff man. No lack of privilege for you.

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    Damn! I was hoping for that 50% automatic increase! Should have told her to leave a couple years earlier...
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  19. #15
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Get The Show On The Road View Post
    Damn! I was hoping for that 50% automatic increase! Should have told her to leave a couple years earlier...
    Sorry buddy. You had a decade of privilege. We're not running a fucking charity over here.

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