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  1. #1
    Sinner's Swing! UncleCrappy's Avatar
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    Default The Abortion Debate Thread

    Re-routed from the Trump thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by dibblekins View Post
    Presumably, if she has had the child (and not had an abortion) then it's not an 'unwanted intruder'.


    You still seem unable to grasp that it's not even MY argument; I'm merely pointing out the inconsistencies in the position of a man who (I should imagine, if he's anything like most people who share his ideology in the US) thinks it's fine to use lethal force in various other circumstances (including any perceived, not actual, threat to his person).


    In contrast, a woman who is suffering physical / mental harm as a result of being pregnant would claim that it isn't 'perceived', but actual - hence her having a good reason (I believe) to want to have an abortion.


    I should also point out that those women who have committed infanticide, as a result of psychosis, don't tend to be found guilty of murder.


    I also find it interesting that not one of the people here arguing against a woman's right to choose have nothing to say about how those children should be financially supported throughout their lives...As has been levelled at these posters on many occasions before, they cherish the idea of lots of cute little babies being brought into the world, but are quick to turn a blind eye when those children and their mothers are forced to live in poverty - SUDDENLY, 'small' government, where there should be little to no 'interference' in people's lives (make that a diminished welfare state) is absolutely the way to go!


    These 'anti-women's-right-to-choosers' (I won't use the term 'pro-life' because I too am pro-life - 'pro-the-woman's-life') are also the first to hurl abuse at single mothers, blaming them and their children for most of society's ills. Babies though - oh yes - they're just cute!
    Quote Originally Posted by lovemachine97(Version 2) View Post
    Actually I think in my very first post about it I said it wasn't "your" argument.


    You're making some incredible logical leaps here. Because I am guessing that if a woman wants a child, has sex, gets pregnant, carries the baby, and then in week 23 decides, 'Ya know what, this isn't for me, this child is an intruder' you'd have no problem with her getting an abortion. There's no accounting for, and no real scientific reason to account for this change of heart when the baby is 3-months old. It is still 100% reliant on his or her mom/parents, that still can create mental/physical anguish, and once that child is an intruder on the property, he or she can be killed.


    Now, when asked point blank about this last year as head of the party, Debbie Wasserman Schultz would not answer a question about late-term abortions. So based upon her answer, the opinion of the Democratic Party is that a baby can be killed 1 minute before he or she is born if the mother wants to. Recently, more college students support post-birth abortion, sometimes through the age of 4 or 5. So even some pro-choice people understand how abortion arguments could be applied to post-birth killings.


    Even if this isn't the argument you're making, it is not a great argument back at Shapiro is our point.

  2. #2
    Banned! Motherload's Avatar
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    Really? We have to police threads, because discussions go where they go like in real life?

  3. #3
    Sinner's Swing! UncleCrappy's Avatar
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    From Snopes:

    Claim: A significant and growing number of college students support "post-birth abortions," extending to children as old as four or five.

    FALSE

    Example: [Collected via Twitter, October 2014]

    WOW! New study says college students r starting to support POST-BIRTH #abortion until 5 yrs old cuz they don't have self awareness #justsick

    Origins: On 29 October 2014, conservative college blog The College Fix posted an article claiming "anecdotal evidence"
    of a "trend seen by pro-life activists" indicated a growing number of college students support what the site dubbed "post-birth abortion."

    The article veered immediately into "friend of a friend" territory, citing word-of-mouth claims made by anti-abortion activists who frequently demonstrate on campuses. The claims were quickly picked up by other blogs; and in the course of their travels the anecdotes morphed into the results of a "study" about a worrisome moral decay on campuses nationwide.

    The article stated:
    "Anecdotal evidence by leaders of pro-life groups such as Created Equal and Survivors of the Abortion Holocaust said in interviews that not only do they see more college students willing to say they support post-birth abortion, but some students even suggest children up to 4 or 5-years-old can also be killed, because they are not yet "self aware."

    She cites the testimony of Mark Harrington, the director of Created Equal. Harrington said, "We encounter people who think it is morally acceptable to kill babies after birth on a regular basis at almost every campus we visit. While this viewpoint is still seen as shocking by most people, it is becoming increasingly popular."
    The article lacks a number of key credibility markers. Among crucial corroborating information missing is on which campuses purported polling might have occurred, the number of respondents espousing this shocking viewpoint, the number of college students polled, what specifically constitutes "regularly," and the most crucially relevant portion: what specific language was used to extract this specific admission from college students asked about their support of abortion or reproductive law?

    Harrington himself pointed to a single individual as evidence of this alarming "trend" favoring infanticide, and the claim relied solely on his assertion such a conversation occurred:
    This is the whole problem with devaluing human life at any stage — it will naturally grow to include other groups of humans; in this case, born humans as well as preborn humans," Harrington said. "[I] talked with one young man at the University of Minnesota who thought it was alright to kill children if they were under the age of 5 years old, as he did not consider them persons until that age."
    Even if Harrington did speak with one young man at one campus who believed children up to the age of five were not "persons," there is no evidence of any large-scale support for similar beliefs. The site also quotes anti-abortion activist Kristina Garza, who similarly claims "a common [age] going around is 4 years old" in this purported new trend of post-birth abortion support. Garza points to 35 year old literature as the culprit inspiring college kids to embrace the philosophy:
    As for the trend, Garza said there's an explanation for it. For one, the arguments put forth by Peter Singer and other philosophers who support infanticide are given as reading assignments to college students.

    Singer wrote in 1979 that "human babies are not born self-aware, or capable of grasping that they exist over time. They are not persons ... [therefore] the life of a newborn is of less value than the life of a pig, a dog, or a chimpanzee."
    Garza did not elaborate on why a philosophy more than three decades old would suddenly be sweeping college campuses.

    The article's claims echo a 2013 media kerfuffle over students at George Mason University signing a petition to legalize "fourth trimester abortion." Pregnancy consists of three trimesters, with the bulk of abortions occurring in the first trimester. The controversy that ensued appeared to stem from intended confusion among those polled about the fictional "fourth trimester," and did not actually indicate widespread support for infanticide:
    You might think that college students, a group that typically lives their lives based on a trimester calendar system, might figure out that this was a bogus petition or that "aborting" a 4th trimester baby would mean murdering a child after it had been born. But many of them were fooled by the question.

    It should also be noted that, as with all petitions, some people will just sign anything to appease the petitioner. [The petitioner] also asked people to sign the petition in a very humorous, yet also deceptive, way by misrepresenting himself as an abortion supporter. But it's still a really fun video to watch.
    While the 2013 "fourth trimester" abortion controversy stemmed from a deliberately misleading set of questions designed to make a political point, the article from 29 October 2014 is even less credible. No evidence is presented to support the claim that college students favor "post-birth abortions," and no public opinion polls reflect the increase of such a sentiment.

    Last updated: 28 July 2015

    http://www.snopes.com/politics/sexua...habortions.asp

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    Sinner's Swing! UncleCrappy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motherload View Post
    Really? We have to police threads, because discussions go where they go like in real life?
    I'm not a mod. Do what you want.

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  6. #5
    Atomic Punk ziggysmalls's Avatar
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    I can't believe Motherload believes a 8 month fetus is just a blob.

    I would like for you to tell that to anybody who had a premature baby.

    I am taking the comment from your Trump thread. No need to populate that one more with abortion talk. I understand the law says a person isn't a person until they are born. That is legal speak. Its for taxes. If you think about it logically, why couldn't that fetus be a person? People in the states claim dependents when filing taxes. What in the world is more dependent than a fetus?

    Anyway legally a dog isn't a person but we have more laws protecting animal cruelty than we do with a fetus.

    So if the law says a fetus isn't a person until its expelled from the body, then you are ok that a person can punch a woman in the stomach in route to the hospital to give birth. She is in labor and somebody says "nope not today" and slugs her in the gut. Baby dies. No harm outside of normal battery? I mean the law says its not a person

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  8. #6
    Atomic Punk lovemachine97(Version 2)'s Avatar
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    Yeah, I didn't cite a study on the post-birth abortion thing, and the articles I read provided purely anecdotal evidence. However, my brain says that if even a small amount of people are discussing this as a possibility over the last few years, that is an increase because the entire idea is insane. Which is probably why MSNBC host Melissa Harris Perry said on her show that life begins when the parents feel it begins.

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  10. #7
    Banned! Motherload's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ziggysmalls View Post
    I can't believe Motherload believes a 8 month fetus is just a blob.

    I would like for you to tell that to anybody who had a premature baby.

    I am taking the comment from your Trump thread. No need to populate that one more with abortion talk. I understand the law says a person isn't a person until they are born. That is legal speak. Its for taxes. If you think about it logically, why couldn't that fetus be a person? People in the states claim dependents when filing taxes. What in the world is more dependent than a fetus?

    Anyway legally a dog isn't a person but we have more laws protecting animal cruelty than we do with a fetus.

    So if the law says a fetus isn't a person until its expelled from the body, then you are ok that a person can punch a woman in the stomach in route to the hospital to give birth. She is in labor and somebody says "nope not today" and slugs her in the gut. Baby dies. No harm outside of normal battery? I mean the law says its not a person
    It's not deemed a human being by society, the law or me until it's born.

    A fetus is just that - a fetus - something that isn't viable outside of the womb.

    Life begins at birth ultimately.

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    Atomic Punk CaboChris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motherload View Post
    It's not deemed a human being by society, the law or me until it's born.

    Life begins at birth ultimately.
    Society? I wouldn't go that far.

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    Atomic Punk lovemachine97(Version 2)'s Avatar
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    I can't imagine my thoughts being such a slave to what is the law and what isn't. If more people were like that, we'd still have Jim Crow laws, bans on gay marriage, and only men voting.

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  14. #10
    Banned! Motherload's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaboChris View Post
    Society? I wouldn't go that far.
    I would in the general sense. A fetus is not deemed a human being. An actual human child that is murdered is going to get a billion times more attention and outrage from the public over a fetus that was "murdered".

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    Banned! Motherload's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lovemachine97(Version 2) View Post
    I can't imagine my thoughts being such a slave to what is the law and what isn't. If more people were like that, we'd still have Jim Crow laws, bans on gay marriage, and only men voting.
    It's not about being a slave to law - it's just the reality that life begins at birth and that's why someone who supports abortion doesn't also support a mother putting her 2 year old baby in the microwave, because its crying too loud.

    It's not the same thing at all.
    Last edited by Motherload; 04.01.16 at 11:41 AM.

  16. #12
    Atomic Punk bklynboy68's Avatar
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    FYI
    23 states have Feticide laws on the books. fetal homicide laws that apply to the earliest stages of pregnancy.

    It is human life. It can be nothing else.
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  18. #13
    Atomic Punk
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    But that doesn't apply to sperm? Are they not human life in its earliest stages?
    I'm FEMALE...Deal with it!

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    Atomic Punk lovemachine97(Version 2)'s Avatar
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    What science do you base "life begins at birth" on, ML? Science defines "life." Sperm doesn't make the cut.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Motherload View Post
    I would in the general sense. A fetus is not deemed a human being. An actual human child that is murdered is going to get a billion times more attention and outrage from the public over a fetus that was "murdered".
    You think this isn't a human being:



    Mmmkay.

    I guess that's why you're okay with them stabbing it in the back of the skull with a pair of scissors.
    CNN may think my opinion matters, but you shouldn't.

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