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    If Biden loses any, he loses young Blacks and theyíre like any other young people and wonít vote.

    But my prediction is that both sides will continue business as usual and excuse what their guy says and does in the name of winning.


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    Quote Originally Posted by MF5150 View Post
    So, is it about the workers at the churches or the right for you to be able to go to church?

    Because earlier in the shutdown it was just about the right for you, the individual to go to church.


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    I don't think you've paid attention to a single I've said on this issue

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    Below is just some of what churches do

    Provide counseling free of charge
    Provide shelter to battered women free of charge
    Provide ministry through missions around the world often under threat of death free of charge
    Organize food drives free of charge
    Organize clothing drives free of charge
    Counsel people in the final stages of life free of charge
    Provide hope, guidance and teaching, often being ridiculed free of charge
    Spread love, concern and kindness free of charge

    People volunteer time that is precious because they believe in it

    For 8 weeks Iíve been working at our church to record a service every Sunday to still bring community, love, and hope to many people dealing with this, or shut in, or depressed, while weíve been smart about it, itís still an increased chance of exposure

    So you can say itís not essential if you would like, thatís your right, you can say it doesnít add to society, thatís your right as well

    For my part, I wonít be angry, I wonít ridicule and I wonít point out how misguided I think you are

    I will simply pray for you as it is obvious to me that you need it

    Make a punchline of that if you will, but I and millions like me find my church beyond essential, its more than a building, but that community brought together is something special, it makes me sad you donít think so


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    This seems real simple to me. If churches are being unfairly singled out, thatís wrong.

    If legal orders have them closed because they canít open safelyóin a way that isnít singling them out because theyíre included with other like gatheringsóthatís fine, at least for now. Part of the orders being legal is them being temporary and necessary. Perhaps many church functions can occur, just not lengthy, large services. Each situation is unique.

    Freedom of religion is essential, freedom from it is essential, worshiping is essential, but gathering in large groups in a pandemic at times may not be, especially when there are alternatives.

    If a movie theater can open safely in a county, a church sure can.

    This has had the desired effect the Trump team wanted, down to his press secretary being able to (in her case, inappropriately) slam reporters for allegedly wanting to keep churches closed, but also people now actively arguing church isnít essential.

    Itís a nuanced conversation in a polarized country thatís lost all ability to be nuanced.


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    Quote Originally Posted by BREW CREW View Post
    White man? Well, he's not white and you should know that if you've kept up around here.
    Biden was making a joke? Really?! A few Google searches on Bidens voting history should make you think differently about him. However, you may think his voting history was "just a joke".

    Biden needs to come out of his basement and talk to the press in person, ya know like the current President does regularly.

    I'll let you get to Bidens record. Have a fun Google search, white man.
    Iíll fall on my sword on that one than. That oneís on me. My assumption was flat wrong and pretty damned presumptuous.

    Iíll own that one. My bad. Mucho apologizo.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mean Streets View Post
    Below is just some of what churches do

    Provide counseling free of charge
    Provide shelter to battered women free of charge
    Provide ministry through missions around the world often under threat of death free of charge
    Organize food drives free of charge
    Organize clothing drives free of charge
    Counsel people in the final stages of life free of charge
    Provide hope, guidance and teaching, often being ridiculed free of charge
    Spread love, concern and kindness free of charge

    People volunteer time that is precious because they believe in it

    For 8 weeks Iíve been working at our church to record a service every Sunday to still bring community, love, and hope to many people dealing with this, or shut in, or depressed, while weíve been smart about it, itís still an increased chance of exposure

    So you can say itís not essential if you would like, thatís your right, you can say it doesnít add to society, thatís your right as well

    For my part, I wonít be angry, I wonít ridicule and I wonít point out how misguided I think you are

    I will simply pray for you as it is obvious to me that you need it

    Make a punchline of that if you will, but I and millions like me find my church beyond essential, its more than a building, but that community brought together is something special, it makes me sad you donít think so


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    Great post.

    I donít agree with every word of it but I respect your opinion.

    If food banks and shelters can remain open, churches operating as food banks and abused women shelters should be able to remain open as well, in that capacity. I was never arguing against that. I donít think people need to go to Mass in order for a food bank or an abused women shelter to be run, though.

    This stemmed from people wanting to go to Mass. This is the first Iím hearing about it being about everything a church does for the community. I should have steered clear of that insinuation sooner.

    Iím also not hearing this debate rage on up here and anything I have seen about it, which is scarce, is all about having masses and people needing to be with others as we are ďrelational beingsĒ, not about the charity aspect.

    Our Churches are closed. People are getting by.

    If itís about funds, people can donate and contribute remotely.


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    Quote Originally Posted by MF5150 View Post
    Great post.

    I donít agree with every word of it but I respect your opinion.

    If food banks and shelters can remain open, churches operating as food banks and abused women shelters should be able to remain open as well, in that capacity. I was never arguing against that. I donít think people need to go to Mass in order for a food bank or an abused women shelter to be run, though.

    This stemmed from people wanting to go to Mass. This is the first Iím hearing about it being about everything a church does for the community. I should have steered clear of that insinuation sooner.

    Iím also not hearing this debate rage on up here and anything I have seen about it, which is scarce, is all about having masses and people needing to be with others as we are ďrelational beingsĒ, not about the charity aspect.

    Our Churches are closed. People are getting by.

    If itís about funds, people can donate and contribute remotely.


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    They can donate remotely but those numbers (at least for my church) have dropped considerably. That impacts alot of the programs we run in the community. Fortunately ours is a big enough community that we've been able to hold a couple of food drives during this time.

    Churches up here closed long before the government told them to. They put the health of their community first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MF5150 View Post
    Great post.

    I donít agree with every word of it but I respect your opinion.

    If food banks and shelters can remain open, churches operating as food banks and abused women shelters should be able to remain open as well, in that capacity. I was never arguing against that. I donít think people need to go to Mass in order for a food bank or an abused women shelter to be run, though.

    This stemmed from people wanting to go to Mass. This is the first Iím hearing about it being about everything a church does for the community. I should have steered clear of that insinuation sooner.

    Iím also not hearing this debate rage on up here and anything I have seen about it, which is scarce, is all about having masses and people needing to be with others as we are ďrelational beingsĒ, not about the charity aspect.

    Our Churches are closed. People are getting by.

    If itís about funds, people can donate and contribute remotely.


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    Well here is the challenge, all those things I listed that churchís do, they do so based on the contributions of the congregation, donations and tithing get greatly suppressed in a situation like this.
    Firstly when an economy craters, people arenít donating, and secondly when congregations donít congregate, the money flow greatly slows

    Now some will say ďgood, they donít pay taxes and that money doesnít get used for charity completelyĒ

    They are right, however pastors dedicate their lives to ministry, they donít do it to get rich, but itís also not free. It takes a tremendous amount of dedication and time so some money goes there
    Churches may not pay taxes, but their buildings are not free, so some money goes there
    It takes more than a pastor to run a church, thereís support staff, so some money goes there
    Then thereís community programs, outreaches, town fairs, so some money goes to those costs
    The Churches mission, at least in Christianity is to grow and lead others to be committed followers of Christ, growing means additional churches, so money goes towards those buildings and staff

    Unfortunately TV evangelists, and corruption taints the picture, but the churches at their core are not like that

    In addition, any church worth its weight, is transparent with their finances. My church has signed members that are owners, we vote on the board, we vote on all actions and expenditures and every expense down to every dime brought in and where it is spent is presented to us quarterly

    Like anything else there are people that abuse religion, but I can promise you this as a Christian, in times like these where our country is radically divided, 100,000 people have died with more to come, fear is running rampant as well as blatant ignorance, violence over quarantine and disease situations are on the rise, and more, well Iíd just say this

    We need God now more than ever and by that alone, it makes churches every bit as essential if not more so, than any and every other business out there.

    You may or may not believe, but as a believer, Christ is the most important thing needed and itís heightened during a world wide pandemic that not only do we not have controlled, but we have to reopen to protect the economic death rate while the pandemic death rate has gone up 50% in two and half weeks, and that is the best definition of essential I can give


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    Last edited by Mean Streets; 05.22.20 at 09:43 PM.

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  12. #55584
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    The pandemic could reshape the world order. Trump's chaotic strategy is accelerating US losses

    If you have a few minutes, this is an interesting outside perspective:
    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/23/w...ntl/index.html

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    Can't believe that Church's are not deemed even quasi essential. Our church provides annual jobs to many people. For one the pastors which we have probably 10 of. We have the administrative staff. We have an IT person. We have a sound tech. We have other positions that center on community outreach. We have a custodial staff. Sure there are volunteers but that's what they are volunteers. I am a member and see the salaries with the budget. Oh and we also pay every Sunday to have 3 policeman to be on site for protection.

    Our church is open 7 days a week with various activities that occur. We still are open in limited form and fashion and these people need to be paid. While I do online donations which hasn't stopped you have weekly visitors which do drop in cash. That's no longer happening. We do streaming every week and while I "attend" its not even close to the same thing. Its no different than me telling you, "well you don't need to leave your house. You can order food online, have it delivered and essentially order everything on Amazon that you will ever need." How long does that last until you go "I would like to go to Wal Mart and shop?"

    Is it essential? Not to a non-believer but just as essential as a hair salon, an outside bar patio, your park or anything else. No its not shelter, security or food. However its up there to some people.

    Just like anything else, you can be safe while being at church. At least in Ohio we can have banquets open on June 1st. How is being at church any less safe than a banquet for a wedding? Its not.

    Lastly if churches do open, I have the right to go or not to go. If I feel its unsafe I simply can still stream the video at home. Every week. I have that choice. It should be mine and the churches choice. Not the government. In March? Maybe. At the end of May? No. Its time to open churches

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    Quote Originally Posted by ziggysmalls View Post
    Can't believe that Church's are not deemed even quasi essential. Our church provides annual jobs to many people. For one the pastors which we have probably 10 of. We have the administrative staff. We have an IT person. We have a sound tech. We have other positions that center on community outreach. We have a custodial staff. Sure there are volunteers but that's what they are volunteers. I am a member and see the salaries with the budget. Oh and we also pay every Sunday to have 3 policeman to be on site for protection.

    Our church is open 7 days a week with various activities that occur. We still are open in limited form and fashion and these people need to be paid. While I do online donations which hasn't stopped you have weekly visitors which do drop in cash. That's no longer happening. We do streaming every week and while I "attend" its not even close to the same thing. Its no different than me telling you, "well you don't need to leave your house. You can order food online, have it delivered and essentially order everything on Amazon that you will ever need." How long does that last until you go "I would like to go to Wal Mart and shop?"

    Is it essential? Not to a non-believer but just as essential as a hair salon, an outside bar patio, your park or anything else. No its not shelter, security or food. However its up there to some people.

    Just like anything else, you can be safe while being at church. At least in Ohio we can have banquets open on June 1st. How is being at church any less safe than a banquet for a wedding? Its not.

    Lastly if churches do open, I have the right to go or not to go. If I feel its unsafe I simply can still stream the video at home. Every week. I have that choice. It should be mine and the churches choice. Not the government. In March? Maybe. At the end of May? No. Its time to open churches
    Churches have been proven to be super spreaders of the virus. Churches are essential. counseling is essential . Attending in person is not essential

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daisy Hill View Post
    Churches have been proven to be super spreaders of the virus. Churches are essential. counseling is essential . Attending in person is not essential
    How is it any less important than a bar or restaurant opening at 50% capacity?

    There needs to be rules put in place, space people out, masks etc, but we are no longer closed, why can beaches, restaurants, hair salons and malls open but churches canít?


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    Quote Originally Posted by sek View Post
    The pandemic could reshape the world order. Trump's chaotic strategy is accelerating US losses

    If you have a few minutes, this is an interesting outside perspective:
    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/23/w...ntl/index.html
    ď...a deteriorating grasp of the responsibilities of leadership...Ē
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mean Streets View Post
    How is it any less important than a bar or restaurant opening at 50% capacity?

    There needs to be rules put in place, space people out, masks etc, but we are no longer closed, why can beaches, restaurants, hair salons and malls open but churches can’t?


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    And the CDC did put out guidelines for the churches . Liquor stores and Planned Parenthood were deemed essential but not churches. Makes zero sense especially in America.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VH1986 View Post
    ď...a deteriorating grasp of the responsibilities of leadership...Ē
    I think I could understand it if we were under lock down, but every state is in some form of reopening, and much to your point guidelines are out there to follow. I guess Daisyís scenario could come true and a breakout could happen, but my point is that breakout risk exists in every business reopening and Churches should not be restricted from doing so
    Yes if a breakout happens we already can predict what the narrative will be, but Iíve always maintained, be smart, take precautions but donít be driven by fear especially when it comes to church

    Itís a focal point of many lives and can and does bring a peace that is desperately needed


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