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  1. #1
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    Default Is The Conflict Between Science and Religion Real?

    Ex-Astronaut Has a Major Message About God, the Big Bang — and What Happens If Christians Refuse to Ask Key Questions


    May. 18, 2015



    Dr. Leslie†Wickman, a†scientist and former astronaut who once served as a Hubble Space Telescope engineer, fervently believes that the ongoing debate over the perceived incompatibility of science and religion is merely “an illusion of conflict.”

    Wickman, a Christian who has no problem accepting both science and religion as palatable realities, recently told†The Church Boys†podcast†that she grew up in a Bible-believing home and was raised to embrace that “God was the source of all … wonder” on the Earth and in the skies.

    “It’s an illusion of conflict … perpetuated by people at the extremes of the dialogue,” she said of those who staunchly debate over whether science and faith can truly mesh.

    Wickman, who now heads the department of engineering and computer science at†Azusa†Pacific University in†Azusa, California, and is the author of the book “God of the Big Bang: How Modern Science Affirms the Creator,” said that “fundamentalists” on both sides of the discussion make finding a middle ground quite difficult.

    Listen to†Wickman†discuss faith and religion below (interview starts at the 33:30 mark): http://www.thechurchboys.com/

    “At one end we have the atheistic fundamentalist who would say that science explains everything and that there is no room for God,” she said. “And at the other end, we might have religious fundamentalists who think that there’s no room for science, that science is the enemy that the Bible is a scientific textbook.”

    The scientist continued, “Because I believe that God is who he claims to be as the creator of everything, then it doesn’t seem logical to me that the truth about God and who he is could contradict the truth about his creation — and so, for me, there’s this kind of fallacy in logic that if you study what God’s created it’s somehow going to contradict who he is.”


    Wickman†said that she is careful not to tell others what to think when it comes to creation, but that she believes there is compelling evidence for an old Earth and for the potential that God used various processes in the development of creation, discussing her view that the Earth is likely not as young as some creationists believe — and that evolution is a plausible explanation.

    She said that it’s important to follow scientific methods — both natural and scriptural — when†examining†the Earth and its beginnings.

    “If we don’t allow ourselves to question anything, then our faith is a very shaky faith.”

    While she’s aware that many stick to a very literal interpretation of the Genesis narrative, she said that it’s†important†for believers to also explore context, audience and other elements surrounding the text.


    “If you think about Genesis being written thousands of years ago to a†pre-scientific society … just imagine if God had chosen to inspire the writer to speak in terms of what we know as modern science and dark energy and dark matter — and the expansion of the universe,”†Wickman†said. “It would have just been nonsense. They wouldn’t have any context for that. At would have been meaningless to the original audience.”


    at Azusa Pacific University

    Is The Conflict Between Science And Religion Real?






    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015...and-the-bible/
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  2. #2
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    No.

    I watch Cosmos and other science programs all the time. Love it.

    Go to church. Enjoy going.

    I can believe in an ever expanding universe with trillions of galaxies, and I can also believe that I don't think that I am hurtling through time and space purely upon a great cosmic accident, and prefer to think that there is something greater than what we can see, even if it cannot be proven.
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    Although I tend to believe in the existence of other life forms...for all intents and purposes, we're alone.

    This wasn't a great accident imo. Humanity.

    Something set this in motion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaboChris View Post
    Although I tend to believe in the existence of other life forms...for all intents and purposes, we're alone.

    This wasn't a great accident imo. Humanity.

    Something set this in motion.
    That's an interesting statement.
    You know...whenever someone kind of minimizes our existence or physical complexity....(and this applies to animals as well) to adaptive evolution, I usually tell them to take a look at a diagram of the human hand for an example of amazing engineering.

    Honestly...Take a look at the image below, and look at all the structures, bones, muscles, the tendons, the ligiments, How they are connected, the bands/sheaths of tissue that separate and that guide them transferring energy in the most efficient pathways possible. The glands that provide lubrication for movement. It's absolutely amazing geometric perfection.

    I use the human hand as an example simply because of it's power in how it made us such a dominant species where for better or worse, we have reshaped our world.



    Now take the mind....We have lots of theory, as well as understanding the chemical reactions that make us feel the way we do...We understand neural pathways, but yet we don't understand how our minds truly work. Do we have a soul? What is a soul?
    Is it just chemicals, and neurons firing across various pathways?...Obviously chemicals are secreted, and neurons fire, but what is the stimulus? Are they simply secreting, and firing in response to a stimulus, or are they secreted and firing to create the physical sensation reflected of what the soul is feeling?

    There's lots of scientists, doctors, etc. who have been absolutely steadfast in their denial of religion, a creator, whatever you want to call it, but then they were touched personally by an event, or a personal health issue that has made them do a complete 180 in their thinking.

    I'm not particularly religious myself....At least not organized religion as we know it, but I've personally had a couple things happen in my life that have also made me rethink things...Put it this way....I tend to have a solid faith in science, but I also have a very healthy respect for the fact that NONE of us in life can have the answers that are only revealed in death, weather it's nothing but blackness, another dimension, a reincarnated form...whatever.

    Who are any of us to truly claim we have the definitive answers of religion, the Universe, when most of what we know, or claim to know is based in our own rather constrained corner of the Universe.

    Case in point...It was only fairly recently that we started to contemplate that extra terrestrial life may NOT actually require oxygen to survive, but may possibly flourish in a methane, or ammonia based atmosphere.
    Again...it's only recently that this has even been considered!
    So are we alone simply because by our understanding...We should be by our own set of life sustaining ideals?
    God! Now I've gone all Carl Sagan!

    It's always an interesting topic though.

    Is the divide real? Yes....but it doesn't have to exist. Even Einstein had the forethought to know that despite all our best intentions to advance science, and gain knowledge, that there will always be limitations to just how much we will ever know, and that just because we don't physically see any scientific proof, does not meet that it is not there.
    Last edited by we die young; 05.19.15 at 03:56 PM.

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    This is classic ...

    "It's so lonely at the top because it's so crowded at the bottom" - Diamond David Lee Roth

    "If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving is not for you"

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  11. #7
    Atomic Punk ziggysmalls's Avatar
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    Well even if you are a hard core atheist, you have to wonder how did all the matter in our universe came to be? We may have had 10000 Big Bangs but at some point, something or someone had to put all that matter into one small sphere. It just didn't appear.

    I find it very hard to believe we are the only things out there. Here is my problem with science though. For instance I believe in spirits, ghosts, etc. Whatever you want to call them. I have seen shit in my life that can't be explained by our traditional science. Yet to science, it is absolutely not possible. However with life on other planets or galaxies it is. Even though we have no proof outside of maybe water on Mars. A spirit,ghost or an out of body experience would validate religion so its removed from the equation. Life on other planets invalidates religion because God supposedly created life only on Earth. So its a possibility.

    Once again no middle ground can be found.

  12. #8
    Good Enough pickslide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ziggysmalls View Post
    Well even if you are a hard core atheist, you have to wonder how did all the matter in our universe came to be? We may have had 10000 Big Bangs but at some point, something or someone had to put all that matter into one small sphere. It just didn't appear.

    I find it very hard to believe we are the only things out there. Here is my problem with science though. For instance I believe in spirits, ghosts, etc. Whatever you want to call them. I have seen shit in my life that can't be explained by our traditional science. Yet to science, it is absolutely not possible. However with life on other planets or galaxies it is. Even though we have no proof outside of maybe water on Mars. A spirit,ghost or an out of body experience would validate religion so its removed from the equation. Life on other planets invalidates religion because God supposedly created life only on Earth. So its a possibility.

    Once again no middle ground can be found.
    Only two things wrong here. You supposition that someone HAD to put all that stuff in one small sphere carries the premise that there WAS a someone. But maybe there wasn't. It's mind blowing to think it. It's even counter-intuitive to most people. But the mere presence of something doesn't mean someone else PUT it there. Google Death Valley Sailing Stones. Shit happens.

    Also, science doesn't claim there are no spirits. It simply says we have no proof. And no, creepy videos on YouTube and YOUR personal weird experiences don't prove it. Science HAS proven, however, that I can put you in a dark room and cover your eyes and ears and use small jolts of electricity to disrupt your brain signals and make you see all sorts of things, including spirits, dead relatives and pets, and sometimes even out-of-body visions of your own body in the room. When people's brains disrupt themselves - which often happens - guess what they see.

    There doesn't need to be "middle ground" because they are two different questions. Non-overlapping magisterium, as Stephen Jay Gould used to say. One is based on emotional convictions and faith in things unseen. And the other is based on hypotheses that can be tested and verified.

    TK

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  14. #9
    Atomic Punk ziggysmalls's Avatar
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    I don't know what created matter. However creating it would require energy and the material itself. Also would require the template which is the vacuum of the universe. I simply don't think we can comprehend it similar to a bacteria who's universe is a petri dish in which they can't even fathom the borders. Maybe it is a being. Maybe we are similar to bacteria and some other form is out there? Who knows. Its a head fuck.

    We have no proof of life on other planets. Yet science goes out of their way to say its out there in the absence of that proof. Sure Science has proven certain paranormal experiences can be caused by brain activity. Doesn't mean ALL of it is. I mean how does it explain where me and three friends watched a planchette scoot 10 feet on the carpet while on its back. Got on the capet by flying off a Ouija board (home made one), hitting a wall and then landed on its back. 3 people outside of myself who were not within 6 feet of it before it started moving. Or a friend and I seeing a spirit while bringing sandwiches to our friends who were doing some occult shit in the next room. Then we were led to a bathroom and shown a picture of said spirit who died in 1920. Crap I could go on and on about stuff that certainly wasn't no damn hallucination that science would say is the cause. I mean when 30 hangers decided to fall off at the same time with the closet door shut, how is that caused by electrical impulses to my brain? I mean I had to pick up the 30 hangers after when hearing them snack on the floor. How can science prove that I just imagined myself getting out of bed, bending over, freaked out of my mind because of this supposed brain disruption.

    Anyway think about how much we know today compared to two hundred years ago. We don't know crap

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  16. #10
    Good Enough pickslide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ziggysmalls View Post
    I don't know what created matter. However creating it would require energy and the material itself. Also would require the template which is the vacuum of the universe. I simply don't think we can comprehend it similar to a bacteria who's universe is a petri dish in which they can't even fathom the borders. Maybe it is a being. Maybe we are similar to bacteria and some other form is out there? Who knows. Its a head fuck.

    We have no proof of life on other planets. Yet science goes out of their way to say its out there in the absence of that proof. Sure Science has proven certain paranormal experiences can be caused by brain activity. Doesn't mean ALL of it is. I mean how does it explain where me and three friends watched a planchette scoot 10 feet on the carpet while on its back. Got on the capet by flying off a Ouija board (home made one), hitting a wall and then landed on its back. 3 people outside of myself who were not within 6 feet of it before it started moving. Or a friend and I seeing a spirit while bringing sandwiches to our friends who were doing some occult shit in the next room. Then we were led to a bathroom and shown a picture of said spirit who died in 1920. Crap I could go on and on about stuff that certainly wasn't no damn hallucination that science would say is the cause. I mean when 30 hangers decided to fall off at the same time with the closet door shut, how is that caused by electrical impulses to my brain? I mean I had to pick up the 30 hangers after when hearing them snack on the floor. How can science prove that I just imagined myself getting out of bed, bending over, freaked out of my mind because of this supposed brain disruption.

    Anyway think about how much we know today compared to two hundred years ago. We don't know crap
    Science cannot prove the hangers didn't fall and wouldn't claim to. That's the difference. I don't claim the hangers didn't fall. They most likely did.

    But the crux of the matter is a question.

    WHY did the hangers fall? And the only tenable answer is difficult to accept for those who WANT to believe:

    I don't know. And neither do you.

    THAT's the scientific, rational answer. Any other explanation is, by its very definition, probably fiction.

    Hume's Maxim...

    TK

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  18. #11
    Atomic Punk ziggysmalls's Avatar
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    I understand but what about having something scratch your name in toilet scum when you were the only person in your apartment and it happened in a 20-30 second period of time? Doors were bolted and you are on the 3rd floor. Winter time so windows were closed. I have no freaking idea but when that happens, you dont' give a shit about what science thinks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ziggysmalls View Post
    . . . because God supposedly created life only on Earth.
    That religious dogma? The Vatican? Just asking.
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    Master Bluesman Elwood P.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ziggysmalls View Post
    I understand but what about having something scratch your name in toilet scum when you were the only person in your apartment and it happened in a 20-30 second period of time? Doors were bolted and you are on the 3rd floor. Winter time so windows were closed.
    Wow. You got some weird stuff going on there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ziggysmalls View Post
    I don't know what created matter. However creating it would require energy and the material itself. Also would require the template which is the vacuum of the universe. I simply don't think we can comprehend it similar to a bacteria who's universe is a petri dish in which they can't even fathom the borders. Maybe it is a being. Maybe we are similar to bacteria and some other form is out there? Who knows. Its a head fuck.

    We have no proof of life on other planets. Yet science goes out of their way to say its out there in the absence of that proof. Sure Science has proven certain paranormal experiences can be caused by brain activity. Doesn't mean ALL of it is. I mean how does it explain where me and three friends watched a planchette scoot 10 feet on the carpet while on its back. Got on the capet by flying off a Ouija board (home made one), hitting a wall and then landed on its back. 3 people outside of myself who were not within 6 feet of it before it started moving. Or a friend and I seeing a spirit while bringing sandwiches to our friends who were doing some occult shit in the next room. Then we were led to a bathroom and shown a picture of said spirit who died in 1920. Crap I could go on and on about stuff that certainly wasn't no damn hallucination that science would say is the cause. I mean when 30 hangers decided to fall off at the same time with the closet door shut, how is that caused by electrical impulses to my brain? I mean I had to pick up the 30 hangers after when hearing them snack on the floor. How can science prove that I just imagined myself getting out of bed, bending over, freaked out of my mind because of this supposed brain disruption.

    Anyway think about how much we know today compared to two hundred years ago. We don't know crap
    Stuff like this is fascinating man!

    Years ago we had a few very odd experiences in our place that none of us could figure out.

    One most notably...please bear with the set up:

    Back in 1996, my ex had just lost her mother. She was by all accounts healthy, but she simply died in her sleep with a previously undiagnosed heart condition. Anyway...We held a funeral, and at the rememberance gathering after, a bunch of us decided we would all get together the following weekend at our place...Just to try and heal and remember all the good times with her.

    So on that Saturday night, I did the BBQ'ing, and friends started to filter in, and the music was on. We were all having a good time, and one of our guests Sue, brought my ex a CD of the band America for her. It was one of her moms favorite bands, and her and her mom both loved the song Sister Golden Hair.

    So anyway...We are all just sitting around, and I unwrapped the CD and put it in.
    Now I looked at the song listing, and Sister Golden Hair was like 4 or 5 on the track listing.
    I was going to select the song, but got distracted when someone asked for a refill of wine, so left it for a minute.
    Just as I was walking to the kitchen, I heard two of the guests talking about the song, actually specifically the chorus of it........Just then, the CD played. On it's own, at the specific part they were just talking about, then stopped, and zero'd out again.
    I'm dead serious. It was 1996...I had a beat up old manual only Sony rack system CD player from 1988 with very limited programming......certainly not specific counter searches without fastforwarding to a specific part. The player had the typical CD searching kind of sound if you were using the feature, and no one did that, and they were not even near the stereo system. We are talking seconds from the time I inserted the CD, to turning by back to refill my guest's wine.

    This thing played the specific part, with the lyric they were just talking about, and stopped. About 10 to 15 seconds I guess....
    We were all stunned, and no one was saying much. Just a bunch of blank stares and a chill up all our spines.

    My ex has since passed on of the same condition...No experiences like that after her passing....but every time our mutual friends bump into me...That story often comes up.
    We still can't understand it.
    Was it some random coincidence? A power surge? Some hidden Post Cold War Era covert voice recognition technology embedded within the depths of my 150 dollar bare bones CD player?

    Like I said...There were some other odd things that happened right after her death. One incident involving every light we turned on early on a Monday morning blowing inexplicably. The bedroom...the hall, the dining room. Very weird! A surge? All the outside hall lights outside our apartment were on...Just our unit.
    Last edited by we die young; 05.20.15 at 09:31 AM.

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    The conflict of science and religion is far too overblown. The most recent version of Cosmos made a point to spend time on the Catholic Church persecuting scientists, but I don't remember them making a point to show that the Catholic Church has been running one of the world's foremost observatories for hundreds of years. The Church has even openly questioned whether we are alone in the universe. Finding life elsewhere doesn't destroy religion, but it can have an impact if we find intelligent life.

    Do ETs have religion? Do they already have all the answers? Has Jesus, Muhammed, or Buddha visited them as well? If the concept is foreign to them, does that mean we are charged with evangelizing God's word beyond our own earth? I think it would be a hilarious if some of these atheist scientists made contact with ETs only to run into the Planet X equivalent of Jehovah's Witnesses.

    At it's most basic, science examines how we got here and possibly where our future lies, but religion seeks to answer why we're here and what we're supposed to do with it. It is the height of arrogance for anyone to think they have all the answers and that those that don't agree with them are stupid or misguided. Maybe one day we will know everything but we certainly aren't there and it's not even close.

    In the meantime, it's safe to look up in the sky and marvel and what God, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or interacting subatomic fields created.
    CNN may think my opinion matters, but you shouldn't.

 

 

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