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  1. #1
    Atomic Punk bklynboy68's Avatar
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    Default Shoot or don't shoot: Police scenarios prove eye-opening for civil rights leaders

    By Perry Chiaramonte February 12, 2015

    It was a split-second decision.

    A distressed man with a baby in tow was pacing back and forth in a manic state and shouting incoherently. The responding police officer calmly addressed the man in an attempt to calm him down and defuse the situation, but the man suddenly pulled an object from his side and lunged toward the officer. Instinctively, the officer raised his Taser and squeezed the trigger. It turned out the man was armed with a knife, but the "officer," who was actually the firebrand African-American activist known as Quanell X, acknowledged he would have fired whether the assailant had a knife, a spoon or an empty hand.

    “I didn’t even see it,” said the leader of the Houston area Black Panther Party, who was taking part in a training scenario in an attempt to understand what police officers go through during high-pressure situations. “It could have been anything in his hand, and I still would have used force to stop him.

    “It all happened so fast," he added. "You don’t know what they could have in their hand.”

    Quanell, a former Nation of Islam member, is one of at least two black activists to take the police training tests. Both he and Arizona activist the Rev. Jarrett Maupin came away from the experience with a newfound understanding of the pressure on police officers, not to mention a new message for black youth who come in contact with law enforcement officers.

    “I walked away with a few things,” Quanell said “Many of these officers do not have adequate training and they should not be patrolling by themselves. Having backup would stop them from being skittish and firing their weapon.

    “Also, we have to teach our community that, even if you disagree with the officer, do not try to litigate with them on the spot," he added. "Live to see another day. Don’t let our pride get in the way. Otherwise, you are setting yourself up.”

    Quanell, who has been critical of police in Texas, as well as in Ferguson, Mo., where the shooting of an unarmed black man by a police officer last August touched off rioting around the nation, took the test with the police department in the Houston suburb of Missouri City. In four scenarios, he had to instantly decide whether to use a [paintball] gun, a Taser or hold his fire.

    In another scenario, Quannel fired at a man during a routine traffic stop in which the suspect moved toward him, ignored an order to halt and reached behind his back

    “I actually fired six times,” Quanell recalled. “I always questioned why officers fired so many shots in these situations. After going through the training, I think it’s very hard for an officer to know how many shots they fired when they are in the moment.”

    Quannel said he submitted to the test because he “felt it was the right thing to do.”

    The same sense of obligation prompted Maupin to go through a series of real-world scenarios in January with the Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office, as reported on by Fox 10 Phoenix. Maupin led protests in Phoenix after an incident there in which officers shot an unarmed man who allegedly fought with them.

    Maupin was also surprised by what he learned during the exercise.

    “It was tense,” Maupin told FoxNews.com. “They had eliminated backup as an option. I tried to navigate it as best I could.”

    In one scenario, Maupin responded to a call of two men fighting.

    “What’s going on today, gentlemen?" Maupin said to the suspects in the live-action scenario. "What are you doing?"

    Despite his respectful greeting, one of the suspects rushed him, prompting the preacher to draw his weapon and open fire.

    “I had no intention of shooting them,” Maupin said later. “I can see how these situations occur. There is a level of fear that exists and the people who are often afraid are often the ones who are armed.”

    Maupin said stressful situations still don't justify excessive force by police. But obeying cops is "a matter of survival," he said.

    “I walked away with a renewed sense of compliance in any situation,” he said. “There’s no shame in it.

    “I encourage all civil right leaders to take this training,” he added. “I know there’s truth to the other side."

    Law enforcement officials credited both men for taking the simulations and putting themselves in the shoes of police officers.

    “I think it’s great,” Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio said to FoxNews.com. “The leaders of many of these groups, people in general, those that are high profile, are always criticizing the police. Maupin proves the point when he went through the training that you would get a good idea of what officers go through.”

    Arpaio said he has extended a standing invitation to Rev. Al Sharpton to come to Maricopa County to complete the exercises.

    “I’ve only heard from his people, who said, ‘We’ll look into it,’” he said.





    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/02/12...ights-leaders/
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  2. #2
    Atomic Punk lovemachine97(Version 2)'s Avatar
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    I saw this, and it is compelling. I think the obvious question is how much better police do than some guy off the street. If the answer is "not much," then something must change.

  3. #3
    carpe damn diem billy007's Avatar
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    I hope more of the folks who are critical of the police get to take this experience. Funny how I'm able to understand what a police officer's stress level must be like without having to simulate these scenarios, but whatever works to get the message out. Police are only human and you can't expect them to act a whole lot differently than you or I would in these situations, no matter how much training they have. Just like you can practice driving in the snow, but once you get out there with cars around you and lights and everything else, you find out it's a whole different animal.

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  5. #4
    Atomic Punk lovemachine97(Version 2)'s Avatar
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    If the police can do no better than someone right off the street, then why are we wasting so much time and money training them and paying them more than we would an average joe off the street.

    I just can't buy that we cannot train police to be measurably better at decision making than some dumbshit with a gun.

    I mean, in police investigations, they are taught to ignore evidence that doesn't jive with their preconceived story. It's called "bad evidence." Literally, exculpatory evidence is not explored and ignored. As long as they can shape a story that a jury will convict on, they are doing their job. They are not trained to find the truth; they are trained to convict someone.

    Well, fuck, I could do that. Why waste the money on training?

    I think we can help police do better in both areas.

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  7. #5
    carpe damn diem billy007's Avatar
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    But sifting through evidence is a lot different than someone trying to attack you.

    It all comes down to how people treat them. Again, they are human beings, and they have one of the toughest jobs in the world. Mir folks wouldn't try to make it harder, I think there'd be a lot less of these incidents. If you are a policeman and you have 11 encounters during a typical day, and On a typical day, seven of those suspects you encounter act antagonistic or threatening, you are going to be a lot more on edge than if of those eleven typical encounters, only three were typically antagonistic or belligerent. I don't care how much training you've had. It's just human nature. There's just too many people that right out of the box if a policeman approaches them, they take an attitude. And these days that attitude seems to include a sense that the person being approached is suddenly Superman and can take on the cops all by themselves.

    And we pay them and we train them because they are doing a job very few people want to do. I sure as hell want nothing to do with keeping my fellow citizens on the right side of the law.

  8. #6
    Atomic Punk fast98dodge's Avatar
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    Was there a time when criminals didn't put up a fight when a cop was trying to arrest them? A cop's job hasn't changed, their thug mentality is what's changed.
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  9. #7
    Good Enough JakeK21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fast98dodge View Post
    Was there a time when criminals didn't put up a fight when a cop was trying to arrest them? A cop's job hasn't changed, their thug mentality is what's changed.
    I just laughed at the fact that I completely disagree with what you wrote in the 28 Reasons thread, but am 100% with you with that post.

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  11. #8
    Atomic Punk lovemachine97(Version 2)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billy007 View Post
    But sifting through evidence is a lot different than someone trying to attack you.

    It all comes down to how people treat them. Again, they are human beings, and they have one of the toughest jobs in the world. Mir folks wouldn't try to make it harder, I think there'd be a lot less of these incidents. If you are a policeman and you have 11 encounters during a typical day, and On a typical day, seven of those suspects you encounter act antagonistic or threatening, you are going to be a lot more on edge than if of those eleven typical encounters, only three were typically antagonistic or belligerent. I don't care how much training you've had. It's just human nature. There's just too many people that right out of the box if a policeman approaches them, they take an attitude. And these days that attitude seems to include a sense that the person being approached is suddenly Superman and can take on the cops all by themselves.

    And we pay them and we train them because they are doing a job very few people want to do. I sure as hell want nothing to do with keeping my fellow citizens on the right side of the law.
    I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I do think cops can do much much better than they are doing.

    I think there are times where resistance is just, but that's when a cop is completely and utterly wrong.

    We don't have to look that much further than all the people who kill cops not being charged with their murders because they are occurring in "no-knock" raids where the person has no warning of the police barging into their house and not identifying themselves. It's killing lots of cops, and the people in the houses pulling the triggers are starting not to get charged.

    That's a form of resistance when the cops are being unjust.

  12. #9
    carpe damn diem billy007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fast98dodge View Post
    Was there a time when criminals didn't put up a fight when a cop was trying to arrest them? A cop's job hasn't changed, their thug mentality is what's changed.
    not to the extent it is now. Even though it's not a police confrontation, the Treyvon Martin story is a good example. Judging by his reported phone conversation, he was prepared to be aggressive. He was an unknown person in that area and he took offense to the fact that someone was keeping an eye on him and he was ready to come out swinging instead of simply explaining himself. Yeah, I expect the most violent of offenders not to give up easy, but too many stories of people getting hostile on traffic stops and other minor violations. Not to mention the fact that the bad guys often have a bit more firepower than a simple rifle or handgun these days.

    I'm not saying cops are always in the right - the example lm gives of them barging in with "no-knock" raids is a good one. I'm just saying their day-to-day confrontations dealing with potential criminals who would rather fight their way out of a situation than explain themselves in court (or possibly even in person) just seems to be enough to cause them to be more on edge than they need to be.

 

 

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