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  1. #1
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    Default Republicans Pretend To Care About The Middle Class


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    The party leadership doesn't give a damn about the middle class.

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    Well, I'd argue neither party gives a shit about any particular group. They both care about votes. That's it.

    As far as the post WWII socialism, no one paid those astronomical rates. There were so many loopholes that so many rich people paid literally nothing in income taxes that we had to come up with the alternative income tax to catch them on the other side. What definitely happened around the end of WWII was that our debt outstanding ballooned, and we never looked back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lovemachine97(Version 2) View Post
    What definitely happened around the end of WWII was that our debt outstanding ballooned, and we never looked back.
    Can you post a chart of what you are talking about? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying, but from everything I see, the national debt remained pretty stagnant all throughout the '50s and '60s and the debt as a percentage of GDP dropped considerably from the end of WWII until 1980.

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    It was the oil crisis that changed how govt regards deficits in the west. All ran up huge deficits during the war (for obvious reasons) but post war most kept to a keynesian model of running a surplus during good times. Once the crisis hit it led to huge deficits that continued not for part of one economic cycle but rather a couple of decades. In America it's basically held to huge deficits for most of the past 40 years due to gutless leaders who have no issue with strapping a huge problem on the next generation.

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    The national debt and deficits became huge problems with the onset of LBJ's "Great Society" plus trying to fund escalating involvement in Vietnam. US Federal Government spending was ridiculously well over what was deemed responsible according to the "Production Possibilities Curve."

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    Its hard to conceive the free worlds financial system on the level it is. It's a huge beast. Central banks that work globally together devoid of elected officials. It's rather scary actually. But it all comes back to the US dollar. 17 trillion of debt and still the worlds reserve currency its quite a feat actually. Highly trained wizards.
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    We are the world's currency still for a few reasons:

    A) We brandish our big stick and make sure that it remains the oil trading currency, that is a big deal.
    B) As bad as our economy is doing, it's better than most.
    C) Military might, don't underestimate it.
    D) Where else are you going to put your money? China? Russia? You might go to bed Friday night with trillions in bonds and wake up Saturday morning and find out it's been nationalized.

    We are the reserve currency of the world until another viable option steps forward, and that takes China and Russia out of it, and the European Union at times looks like it might disband, and no one wants any part of a currency that might disappear from the face of the earth, no matter how remote the possibility.

    We strong arm people into keeping it the world's reserve currency, and it is going to remain that way for a while.
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    Atomic Punk Dave's Dreidel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redfoot View Post
    The party leadership doesn't give a damn about the middle class.
    Maybe I am just a cynic, but I don't believe the Democratic party does either, I think they just pay lip service to it better than the Republicans do. I see very little difference between either party, as nothing really changes, no matter who is in charge.
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  13. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by VHisback View Post
    Can you post a chart of what you are talking about? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying, but from everything I see, the national debt remained pretty stagnant all throughout the '50s and '60s and the debt as a percentage of GDP dropped considerably from the end of WWII until 1980.
    I didn't mean that it snowballed, just that we took on a lot of debt once we got involved, obviously, and despite these "socialist" tax rates, things didn't get any better debt-wise.

    I realize it sounded like I meant that the debt spiraled out of control there. I only meant it at as a supplemental argument to the fact that those "socialist" rates don't matter. Post WWII, no matter what the tax policy, receipts averaged 19% of GDP. Yet we still had big deficits, some surpluses, and debt increased. And if the argument is that we redistributed wealth, it must've come from somewhere else (like going into debt), because these people weren't paying those rates. We couldn't have been taking from them and giving to the middle class if all these rich people were not paying anything. And if the debt kept creeping up post WWII (some years it went down, but the overall trend was up $100B, or 40%, from 1950-1069), it just generally supports the idea that we weren't literally "robbing Peter to pay Paul." It was coming from elsewhere.

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    Both parties care a lot about the middle class. After all we are the ones who grab our ankles and take it in the ass by them. Seriously though neither side, Republican or Democrat really give a shit about the middle class. In a nutshell we are lead to believe Republicans only care about the rich and Democrats only care about the less fortunate (the poor) so they can hand them their entitlement programs and receive votes in return.

    dicksauce, how many times have you piped Bill Maher? I've never seen someone so obsessed with a comedian.

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    It is painfully obvious that Republicans have been told by their focus groups - Grover Norquist's words then repeated by McConnell- that saying the words middle-class will make them more popular with voters.

    How nice and comforting for conservatives to argue that there is no difference between the two parties because it white washes the two different ideologies and the stark differences between the policies that strives for pure capitalism and a party that promotes a strong middle class.
    There is no question that conservative economic philosophy brought about the collapse we saw in 2007/08 - the great recession. Republican policies are designed to redistribute wealth upwards, in hopes that will trickle to everyone else... and we've been experimenting with this for 35 years. No antecdotal data can white wash the fact that this system does NOT work.

    That is not to say a purely socialistic or communistic system works either. You need a mixed economy. But lets step back again. There is only one party that is willing to put forth policies that are needed to create a middle class.

    Just a quick google search will show the difference kinds of bills put forth by D's and R's. While Senate Democrats have worked on extending unemployment benefits, Republicans have championed a bill called the “No Taxpayer Funding of Abortion." Democrats propose increasing minimum wages, Republicans oppose them. R's are primarily trying to fast-track approval of the Keystone XL pipeline - a pipeline sold as "creating jobs" and lowering gas prices but has not stood up to scrutiny.

    I'll go on.
    Democrats supported health insurance reform. R's did not.
    R's even opposed extension of health care to children (S-CHIP) .
    D's signed into law The Student Aid and Fiscal Responsibility Act, to make the largest investment in college aid in American history (opposed by 100% house r's).
    D's supported Wall Street Reform via Dodd/Frank that called for the regulation of financial markets, consumer protection reforms, and tightened regulation of credit rating agencies...the majority of house R's opposed this. D's support bills that call for equal pay... R's do not.
    D's supported The American Jobs and Closing Tax Loopholes Act, to close tax loopholes that reward corporations for shipping American jobs overseas...opposed by majority of R's.

    And this is just in the past 5-6 years. How about historically?

    [lifted from a previous post I made in 2010]

    The Republican party (with the exception of Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt presidencies) have always for Big Business. The robber barons of the late 1800's, the banksters of the 1920's, the Gordon Gekko's of the 1980's through the 2000's all owe their thievery to Republican policies. Republicans during those times removed protections against usary and Wall Street gambling and monopolies, all to ensure ever increasing wealth for their Big Business benefactors. Conservative Republicans have been on the wrong side of history in so many things that have helped the average person.

    They inserted the fiction that corporations are persons in the 1880's.
    They opposed efforts (by progressives) to end child labor.
    They opposed labor unions and workers' rights to collectively bargain.
    They opposed efforts to bust monopolies.
    They opposed a women's right to vote.
    They opposed Social Security (before SS, many people simply went into poverty if they couldn't work anymore due to age or disability)
    They opposed Medicare and Medicaid.
    They opposed civil rights for minorities.
    They opposed the ending of segregation.
    They opposed the ending of poll taxes
    They opposed the Voting Rights Act.
    They opposed the Clean Air Act.
    They opposed the Clean Water Act.
    They opposed OSHA and MSHA (worker safety).
    Unfortunately, many Democrats have largely become beholden to these same corporate interests, ever since Reagan. A significant number of elected Democrats still listen to these voices and support policies that benefit the average citizen. However, many "Democrats" are conservative and corporatist. They do not support policies that benefit the average person. Still, tell me where someone like me, who wants a clean environment, wants equal rights, wants affordable and universal health care, wants all the things that other developed nations already have....tell me what party I should turn to?

    Should I throw up my hands and say to hell with it? Stay home and not vote? Nope, that is what big business wants me to do. They want me to believe there is no difference between the two parties, become apathetic to the political process, and leave it up to the lobbyists and secret money to wield their power. Or worse yet, vote for these psuedo candidates like Rand Paul or Ted Cruz that try to pass themselves off as "out of the box" and "not part of Washington" candidates when they both have strong ties to the KOCH whores. No, we should hold Democrats feet to the fire. This still is a representative democracy after all. Let's overturn Citizens United and get corporate influence out of both parties. Let's reverse this fiction that concentrating wealth in the hands of a few will magically build a strong middle class. The Democrats are far from perfect. But they've been on the right side of history more often than the other guys!

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  18. #13
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    You forgot to add the evil Fox News to your post. Seriously though, Dodd Frank? Obamacare? It's interesting that you think the Koch brothers are evil yet have no problem with George Soros.
    Last edited by bklynboy68; 02.02.15 at 07:23 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gabby gabbster View Post
    Still, tell me where someone like me, who wants a clean environment, wants equal rights, wants affordable and universal health care, wants all the things that other developed nations already have....tell me what party I should turn to?!
    but based on the last 8 years, do you have any reason to think the Democrats plan on delivering anything different than Bush did the 8 years before that?

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