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  1. #1
    Gird your loins Daisy Hill's Avatar
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    12.16.17 @ 07:41 PM
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    anyone else listening to this?

    it's MADDENING! It's the story of a 1999 murder of a high school girl in Baltimore and the investigation, trial and conviction of her then 17 year old ex boyfriend.

    there are no easy answers here...is he guilty? how does this convoluted story and its cast of liars, petty criminals, incompetent and crooked lawyers, weirdos, religious influences etc all add up..just when you think he could not be involved a part of your thinks, well, why not? he sort of had a motive, and sort of had an opportunity and sort of ...

    http://serialpodcast.org/

    produced by NPR it's like listening to an old time radio murder mystery. The whole thing hinges upon the fact that the boy cannot account for his actions during a short 21 minute time frame.....and the reason he can't is because they came to him 6 weeks later for questioning and he just couldn't remember anything remarkable about the day..."well usually I go to school and then hang out at the library and then go to track practice, so I must have done that on that day" "are you sure" " no the days all seem the same so that is probably what I did" and that translates into "no alibi" yikes!

    Like most really good and addictive entertainment I came to it very late...the last episode was released just before Christmas and there was so much talk about it that I decided to listen to the first episode and I was HOOKED.

    today one of the most puzzling characters in the investigation, a boy who claimed to have knowledge of the murder and claimed to have helped the boy dispose of the body gave an interview because he said he felt he was portrayed as and unreliable liar on the podcast and then to no one's surprise proceeded to give his 6th or 7th version of the story! If I helped someone dispose of a body the details would be seared in my mind FOREVER
    https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2...ial-case-pt-1/


    excellent story telling. I highly recommend this

  2. #2
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    My wife has been addicted to this podcast. As soon as I can find time, I'm going to binge listen to it. I've heard almost nothing but good things, though one of the dissenting voices was Laura Lippman's: http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-ra...ure-adnan-syed
    HERE AND GONE by Haylen Beck (Stuart Neville writing as...) - "It doesn't get better than this." - Lee Child, "Highly recommended." - Harlan Coben, "Cancel all your plans and settle in for the ride." - Ruth Ware, "This is a book that lives up to the buzz." - Alafair Burke

    Summer 2017 UK & North America

  3. #3
    Gird your loins Daisy Hill's Avatar
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    some of her arguments are valid. I understand that there are many people unfairly incarcerated. Not all of them make interesting radio tho, This one is interesting in that the average person can identify with not being able to come up with an answer to "what were you doing six weeks ago, between 2'30 and 3:00 pm? and can anyone verify that?" such a simple thing that would have ruled him out as a suspect, and yet.......

    certainly his inability to come up with that answer led to him being seen as a credible suspect. Then the confession or shall we say confessions, of the informant Jay combined with a lawyer who never bothered to question a person who said she could place the boy at the library and the police and the lawyer testing none of the forensic evidence including the rape kit, is astonishing.

    the guy who found the body? weird doesn't begin to describe the guy or the situation.

    as for the people who complain that the interviewer places herself in the middle of the story, I have no problem with that because the point is, that she is putting herself in the viewers place, we are trying to figure out this thing right along with her, and since she is back tracking and starting her investigation right from the beginning, she is uncovering new information, and inconsistencies in the stories that the jury should have heard

    I swear you need a flow chart to keep track of Jay's changing stories about when he knew what Adnan did, where he saw the body ( there are at least three different locations and wouldn't you remember where you saw you friends dead body?)
    every episode raises more questions

    I'm about half way thru and don't want to binge listen because each episode requires you to pay close attention and think things thru

    great entertainment and yet it's chilling to think that this is a real story and a real young man is behind bars for life under these circumstances

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    Atomic Punk lovemachine97(Version 2)'s Avatar
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    12.16.17 @ 11:38 PM
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    I'm late to this party, but I binge-listened to this over the last two weeks.

    This is something that, as some might guess from anti-death penalty threads, is a bit important to me. If there is even a possibility that an innocent man is in jail, that's a travesty.

    I successfully stayed away from anything about the podcast until I finished. I didn't even know what any of the people looked like until the night I finished.

    It's interesting that near the end of the podcast, both Jay, the guy who claims he helped Adnan Syed bury the body, and the prosecutor in the case, Kevin Urick, both gave interviews regarding the case.

    And today, another key player, Asia McClain, has dropped a decent-sized bombshell on the aftermath of the case.

    I won't say what it is, because we haven't established the "spoiler" rules here, despite the fact that this podcast ended a month ago.

    I will say I was mesmerized by the journey. I kind of want to listen to it all again.

  5. #5
    Gird your loins Daisy Hill's Avatar
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    It's a crazy crazy story isn't it?

    So what do you think of Jay? ..that's pretty much what it all boils down to right? do you believe Jay.

    I find it to be beyond weird that both of these guys and the people who know them, describe them as casual acquaintances, knowing each other thru a mutual friend.....and Jay says he has only hung out with Adnan a couple of times

    yet Adnan admits he loaned his car to Jay the day of the murder, and either loaned Jay his new cell phone or left it in the car.

    and weirder yet, Jay says that Adnan had been telling him he was going to kill the girl and turned to him ( a casual acquaintance) to help dispose of the body, and Jay agreed to help bury his friend!

    just that gives me enough WTF to doubt his story...then it keeps changing

    it will be interesting to see if anything comes up on the DNA

    I have to say, anybody who hasn't listened to this should jump on board...it's a great thing to listen to in the car on a commute

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daisy Hill View Post
    It's a crazy crazy story isn't it?

    So what do you think of Jay? ..that's pretty much what it all boils down to right? do you believe Jay.

    I find it to be beyond weird that both of these guys and the people who know them, describe them as casual acquaintances, knowing each other thru a mutual friend.....and Jay says he has only hung out with Adnan a couple of times

    yet Adnan admits he loaned his car to Jay the day of the murder, and either loaned Jay his new cell phone or left it in the car.

    and weirder yet, Jay says that Adnan had been telling him he was going to kill the girl and turned to him ( a casual acquaintance) to help dispose of the body, and Jay agreed to help bury his friend!

    just that gives me enough WTF to doubt his story...then it keeps changing

    it will be interesting to see if anything comes up on the DNA

    I have to say, anybody who hasn't listened to this should jump on board...it's a great thing to listen to in the car on a commute
    I have many thoughts, but I am not sure how organized they are. I have no idea how Koenig and her producer decided to put this all together. I would have been all over the place.

    The first thing that strikes me about Jay is not what he said, but how convincing Sarah and Julie thought he was when they visited him. He was probably just as convincing on the stand.

    Once I finished the series and read the three-part interview with Jay published via The Intercept at the end of December, I realized I knew someone like Jay in high school. He was a tall, thin Black kid as well. We played on the basketball team together. He was charming, smooth, and could talk his way out of anything. But when push came to shove, he'd threaten he was "in" with the right people.

    Now, Jay never did that according to these stories, but he smoked and sold weed, and apparently he and his family knew some people. If it turned out that my friend from the basketball team had helped kill someone and bury her, I have no doubt he could be convincing about it, truth or lie.

    Anyway, what does NOT make sense about Jay is how scared he says he was of Adnan, and how scared he was described by his coworker. That is the biggest clue, to me, that someone other than Adnan was involved, and Adnan was the patsy.

    That seems to jive with the inconsistencies, including the fact that in The Intercept interview, Jay says Adnan actually came to Jay's grandmother's house and that is where he opened the trunk to show Hae's body, not Best Buy, not that druggie part of town. He says he never admitted that to protect his grandma. It's also an admission of perjury.

    If you're convinced that Adnan was not with Jay from nearly the beginning of the call log until after track practice, then someone else had to kill Hae.

    But why? Of all the people involved, the only trace of a motive is Adnan being unhappy that Hae was in love with someone else. Why would one of Jay's friends want to kill her?

    I found the blog of the woman who brought the case to Koenig, Rabia. She recapped each episode. I only read her recap of episode 12, but I think I am going to relisten and then read her recaps (keeping in mind she's biased toward Adnan being innocent). In her episode 12 recap, she reveals that Don wasn't scheduled to work on January 13th. It's mentioned on Serial that his mom was his manager, and that was his alibi, but Rabia says that he was off that day and his mom called him into work, which, to me, is not exactly iron clad.

    But then what is his connection with Jay?

    I could go on forever, but the bottom line is that I could not vote to convict Adnan of the crime. But if we go with Occam's razor, the simplest answer, or the one with the fewest assumptions, is likely the answer. And at this point, that's Adnan.

    Adnan has the only motive we know of, he's the only one who knows Nisha (a butt dial is an assumption), and he cannot account for his whereabouts. Even if we assume that Asia McClain is an iron clad alibi, the show pretty much shows that the murder could NOT have happened when the prosecution says it did. Two different people saw Hae at the library after school, so Adnan easily could have gotten into her car there and been able to do it.

    Either way, the story is just Goddamned weird. There is a LOT we don't know. My guess is we won't find much else out, unless the DNA says something. I also heard that there was blood and a hair (not Adnan's) in Hae's car, but that it was never tested.

    That's maybe the saddest part of the whole show. This isn't just one case. There are many of these. Prosecutors are judged on convictions, not the truth. Cops are told to build a case that a jury will convict, not to find the truth. That part is just deflating.

  7. #7
    Gird your loins Daisy Hill's Avatar
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    12.16.17 @ 07:41 PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by lovemachine97(Version 2) View Post
    I have many thoughts, but I am not sure how organized they are. I have no idea how Koenig and her producer decided to put this all together. I would have been all over the place.

    The first thing that strikes me about Jay is not what he said, but how convincing Sarah and Julie thought he was when they visited him. He was probably just as convincing on the stand.

    Once I finished the series and read the three-part interview with Jay published via The Intercept at the end of December, I realized I knew someone like Jay in high school. He was a tall, thin Black kid as well. We played on the basketball team together. He was charming, smooth, and could talk his way out of anything. But when push came to shove, he'd threaten he was "in" with the right people.

    Now, Jay never did that according to these stories, but he smoked and sold weed, and apparently he and his family knew some people. If it turned out that my friend from the basketball team had helped kill someone and bury her, I have no doubt he could be convincing about it, truth or lie.

    Anyway, what does NOT make sense about Jay is how scared he says he was of Adnan, and how scared he was described by his coworker. That is the biggest clue, to me, that someone other than Adnan was involved, and Adnan was the patsy.

    That seems to jive with the inconsistencies, including the fact that in The Intercept interview, Jay says Adnan actually came to Jay's grandmother's house and that is where he opened the trunk to show Hae's body, not Best Buy, not that druggie part of town. He says he never admitted that to protect his grandma. It's also an admission of perjury.

    If you're convinced that Adnan was not with Jay from nearly the beginning of the call log until after track practice, then someone else had to kill Hae.

    But why? Of all the people involved, the only trace of a motive is Adnan being unhappy that Hae was in love with someone else. Why would one of Jay's friends want to kill her?

    I found the blog of the woman who brought the case to Koenig, Rabia. She recapped each episode. I only read her recap of episode 12, but I think I am going to relisten and then read her recaps (keeping in mind she's biased toward Adnan being innocent). In her episode 12 recap, she reveals that Don wasn't scheduled to work on January 13th. It's mentioned on Serial that his mom was his manager, and that was his alibi, but Rabia says that he was off that day and his mom called him into work, which, to me, is not exactly iron clad.

    But then what is his connection with Jay?

    I could go on forever, but the bottom line is that I could not vote to convict Adnan of the crime. But if we go with Occam's razor, the simplest answer, or the one with the fewest assumptions, is likely the answer. And at this point, that's Adnan.

    Adnan has the only motive we know of, he's the only one who knows Nisha (a butt dial is an assumption), and he cannot account for his whereabouts. Even if we assume that Asia McClain is an iron clad alibi, the show pretty much shows that the murder could NOT have happened when the prosecution says it did. Two different people saw Hae at the library after school, so Adnan easily could have gotten into her car there and been able to do it.

    Either way, the story is just Goddamned weird. There is a LOT we don't know. My guess is we won't find much else out, unless the DNA says something. I also heard that there was blood and a hair (not Adnan's) in Hae's car, but that it was never tested.

    That's maybe the saddest part of the whole show. This isn't just one case. There are many of these. Prosecutors are judged on convictions, not the truth. Cops are told to build a case that a jury will convict, not to find the truth. That part is just deflating.
    I definitely going to listen to the podcast again this weekend, given the Jay interviews

    It's crazy that so little forensic testing was done. They even did a rape kit on Hae that was never tested. They accumulated items from the car and never tested and never tested the evidence from the grave scene

    Adnan was convicted on the basis of Jay's changing story ( and it changed even after the trial) and the cell phone evidence which the prosecution says is a slam dunk and the defense said was not reliable.

    and then there is the defense. Christina Guittieriz the defense attorney who was disbarred a few years after the trial w,as considered a legal pitbull previously, but at some point her illness and personal problems took over and I think it is rather self serving for the prosecution to say "she was fine then, it wasn't until after the trial that she fell apart". That said, her own people said that the trials took a horrific toll on her and that she wasn't the same after. So did the toll of the trials during the trials, affect her ability? who knows, but the chances of getting a new trial based upon her ineffective council are slight. The unchecked evidence is their best chance

    But think about it. A new trial means a new Adnan sitting behind that table. Not the baby faced slender high school student, but a grown man, bearded and robed in the style of the Muslim religion he practices. You can say that the Muslim connection and the honor issue played a minor role in the original trial, but I believe it would play a huge role in any retrial, if only subliminally

    As for Hae's current boyfriend Don that you mentioned, I think he was ruled out very quickly once they came upon the Adnan angle...too quickly

    but the Jay connection is and always was the key to this thing. As you said, was there any connection to Don? The multiple stories of changing the place were he first saw Hae's body are beyond troubling to me. Hae was a friend of his....his connection with her was the same as his connection to Adnan...thruough Jays girlfriend. He KNEW this girl, what compelled him to help cover up her death?...and I have no doubt he did, from his confession to his friend, to him knowing where the body and the car were...he was IN on this, that is the one part of his confession I believe.

    but fear of Adnan? that makes no sense. He was the one with the "connections" in the drug world. And once Adnan was in jail? what was his fear then? That if Adnan was NOT convicted he would hurt Jay? who would dodge a bullet like that and risk retaliation? There's no proof that Adnan was that kind of hardcore punk, in fact the evidence is just the opposite.

    I don't believe that Hae was killed in the Best Buy parking lot in the middle of the day. Something else happened. and if something else happened, it's not unreasonable to say that someone else was involved. But who? and Why? and how does Jay hold the key?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daisy Hill View Post
    I definitely going to listen to the podcast again this weekend, given the Jay interviews

    It's crazy that so little forensic testing was done. They even did a rape kit on Hae that was never tested. They accumulated items from the car and never tested and never tested the evidence from the grave scene

    Adnan was convicted on the basis of Jay's changing story ( and it changed even after the trial) and the cell phone evidence which the prosecution says is a slam dunk and the defense said was not reliable.

    and then there is the defense. Christina Guittieriz the defense attorney who was disbarred a few years after the trial w,as considered a legal pitbull previously, but at some point her illness and personal problems took over and I think it is rather self serving for the prosecution to say "she was fine then, it wasn't until after the trial that she fell apart". That said, her own people said that the trials took a horrific toll on her and that she wasn't the same after. So did the toll of the trials during the trials, affect her ability? who knows, but the chances of getting a new trial based upon her ineffective council are slight. The unchecked evidence is their best chance

    But think about it. A new trial means a new Adnan sitting behind that table. Not the baby faced slender high school student, but a grown man, bearded and robed in the style of the Muslim religion he practices. You can say that the Muslim connection and the honor issue played a minor role in the original trial, but I believe it would play a huge role in any retrial, if only subliminally

    As for Hae's current boyfriend Don that you mentioned, I think he was ruled out very quickly once they came upon the Adnan angle...too quickly

    but the Jay connection is and always was the key to this thing. As you said, was there any connection to Don? The multiple stories of changing the place were he first saw Hae's body are beyond troubling to me. Hae was a friend of his....his connection with her was the same as his connection to Adnan...thruough Jays girlfriend. He KNEW this girl, what compelled him to help cover up her death?...and I have no doubt he did, from his confession to his friend, to him knowing where the body and the car were...he was IN on this, that is the one part of his confession I believe.

    but fear of Adnan? that makes no sense. He was the one with the "connections" in the drug world. And once Adnan was in jail? what was his fear then? That if Adnan was NOT convicted he would hurt Jay? who would dodge a bullet like that and risk retaliation? There's no proof that Adnan was that kind of hardcore punk, in fact the evidence is just the opposite.

    I don't believe that Hae was killed in the Best Buy parking lot in the middle of the day. Something else happened. and if something else happened, it's not unreasonable to say that someone else was involved. But who? and Why? and how does Jay hold the key?
    The Innocence Project Lady is smart. Sarah's brain immediately went to, 'what wouls a serial killer be doing with Jay?' but that's not the point. If there is anything under the fingernails or something in some test points to someone other than Adnan, you've got a brand new trial.

    I learned on Rabia's blog that one of the screenshots that Jay provided in his interview was doctored. It was someone on Facebook saying that he didn't know her, but that someone on Reddit had posted his address and was going to confront Jay. You can see Jay's response was, "Yup," in the screens shot. But the person who did it provided her screen shot to where Jay says something (That is blurred out), she replies to that, and then Jay says, "Yup."

    Rabia says she knows what he wrote and that it is definitely something that he wouldn't want the public to know, but she didn't say that it was some sort of game changer.

    But it shows that he is continuing to lie about this case, even in the interview.

  9. #9
    Gird your loins Daisy Hill's Avatar
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    12.16.17 @ 07:41 PM
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    a court will now hear the appeal as to whether the first trial should have included the testimony of the girl who said she saw Adnan at the library during the time the police say Lee was killed at the Best Buy parking lot.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/p...n-serial-case/


    While this is the key that the Syed supporters say is necessary to vacate the conviction and get a new trial, I'm no longer certain it was the smoking gun they all hope it is.

    First, I think that the time line of when Lee was killed is off anyway and I think that was proven. So if the time of death (and in my opinion the place of death) is now uncertain, those 22 minutes are no longer as important as they seemed at the beginning of the story

    I always believed it would be the untested forensic evidence that was the real issue anyway. I wonder when those results come in?
    the appeal is scheduled for mid June

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    12.16.17 @ 11:38 PM
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    So if you've missed out on Serial season 1, you should go download it right now. It's addictive, and since I care a lot about criminal justice, it was a major part of having my eyes opened to how detective work and prosecutors really work (hint: convictions are better than getting it right).

    Anyway, I have listened to a good chunk of an unrelated, yet still a follow up Podcast, Undisclosed: The State vs. Adnan Syed. This podcast was rough at first, as none of the lawyers who host it had done a podcast before, but they quickly got their stuff together. Anyway, these legal minds have thoroughly examined the evidence so much more than Serial did.

    That's not to say Serial was bad. It was super compelling, Sarah Koenig did a fantastic job telling the story while searching for truth. I'll let you listen to find out if she comes to a conclusion.

    But Undisclosed, if you're really into this case and getting an answer, is compelling in a completely different way. It's not told like Serial, like you were listening to an old radio mystery show. It's purely the facts about the case. But I have to say after hearing a chunk of this, I have swung to one side in this debate. After Serial I was 50/50. Now I am more 80/20.

    Undisclosed was precipitated by a couple episodes of The Docket, an online MSNBC legal show. Here is the first Serial show they did, part 1 part 2, and part 3. Here is the second episode they did on Serial, part 1, and part 2. And I just realized this, but there is a third special The Docket did on Serial.

    Okay, so the reason I bumped this thread is that season 2, episode 1 is now out, and we probably all now know it is about Bowe Bergdahl. I have not listened yet, but my wife has and she said the first episode was great, and teaser for episode 2 has her excited for next week. I will have a listen tomorrow.

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    So I am enjoying Season 2 so far, it is actually pretty compelling, considering the subject matter.

    I'm also here to report that both Serial and Undisclosed (mentioned by me above) are doing mini-episodes from Adnan's PCR hearing, which is going on right now.

    Witnesses regarding Christina Gutierrez and her failing health and competence have testified, Asia (McClain) Chapman has testified, and now the expert regarding the cell phone data (which has been thoroughly debunked) is testifying.

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    According to Adnan's attorney, the subject of Serial season one has been granted a new trial

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