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  1. #1
    Atomic Punk
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    Default Federal court upholds U.S. flag ban on Cinco de Mayo



    A federal appeals court will not reconsider a unanimous February ruling upholding the actions of a principal in a Northern California high school who ordered students wearing American flag shirts inside out during a 2010 Cinco de Mayo celebration.

    Live Oak High School in the San Jose suburb of Morgan Hill had a prior history of problems between white and Latino students.

    Parents and a few lawmakers had argued that the actions violated the students’ Constitutional right to free speech.

    In the original ruling, a three-judge panel of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals decided that past problems at the school gave officials sufficient and justifiable reasons for the order. In its opinion, the court said that schools in general have wide latitude in curbing certain civil rights to ensure campus safety.

    On Wednesday, the Circuit Court of Appeals announced that a majority of its 29 judges had voted against rehearing the case.

    In 2009, a group of Mexican-American students waved a Mexican flag around the Live Oak campus.

    Some non-Hispanic students then raised the American flag on a tree, and the two groups exchanged profanity-laced threats.

    The next year, after the principal issued the order for students wearing Stars and Stripes shirts to turn them inside-out or go home with an excused absence, the incident garnered national attention as many expressed outrage that students were barred from wearing patriotic clothing.

    Three children and their parents sued the school district with the assistance of the American Freedom Law Center and other conservative legal organizations.

    William Becker, a lawyer representing the students called Wednesday’s decision “outrageous” and said he’d likely take the case to the U.S. Supreme Court.

    “(We) will not allow the politically correct judiciary to insult our flag,” he wrote in his blog.

    In February, a three-judge panel ruled that it was not the court’s place to second-guess the school’s anti-violence efforts.

    "The past events "made it reasonable for school officials to proceed as though the threat of a potentially violent disturbance was real," Judge M. Margaret McKeown wrote for the panel.

    But, in his blog, Becker said wearing an American flag to school is a symbol of patriotism, not aggression.

    “The American flag is not a symbol of racism or division,” Becker said. “It is the symbol of freedom and unity. Americans have fought and died to protect that flag, and now we are told to conceal it so we don’t offend Mexican aliens, some of whom entered this country illegally.”

    Cinco de Mayo marks the Battle of Puebla on May 5, 1862, when Mexican troops defeated a French army of Napoleon III. In many ways, it is more of a holiday in the U.S. than in Mexico, a celebration of Latino heritage with parades and revelry in many major cities.
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  2. #2
    Baluchitherium
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    As I have said: RIP, United States of America 1776-2000
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  3. #3
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
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    Why is this even in the courts? Does a school not have a right to have a policy on their dress code?

  4. #4
    Atomic Punk lovemachine97(Version 2)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by It's Mike View Post
    Why is this even in the courts? Does a school not have a right to have a policy on their dress code?
    They do. And schools actually can violate first amendment rights in several ways.

    This particular story goes back to 2010 at Live Oak High School. On Cinco de Mayo, five kids wore patriotic clothing to school. Four of them were sent home for not removing the shirts or wearing them inside out. The Hispanic portion of the school felt their actions were incendiary because of the day. It became a story because the parents of the kids notified the media.

    The school district did not fully back the school, however, as the superintendent said something along the lines of 'while this was done for safety reasons, students shouldn't be punished for wearing patriotic clothing.'

    The next day, 200 students walked out of their classes and marched to city hall, protesting the disrespect from the day before. An anti-racism rally was held at the school by the Hispanic population.

    The day after that, the district held a press conference apologizing for the original incident.

    The day after that (May 8th, for those not keeping track), a bunch of Tea Partiers came into town to protest in favor of the four kids sent home. Then the ACLU got involved, sending the school a letter about violating the kids' fist amendment rights.

    It should be pointed out that Morgan Hill, CA, is 65% White, 10% Asian, 2% Black, and Hispanic or Latino of any race sits at 34%. So it's not as if the school is mostly Hispanic.

    Anyway, the kids and their families sued, and lost. Now they have lost on appeal. The dress code there says that anything that detracts from the learning environment is fair game to be sent home or removed.

    I am sure you can figure out the outrage, however, especially considering the district can't seem to figure out if they did the right thing or the wrong thing.

  5. #5
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
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    I just think people have far too much time on their hands are far too comfortably with the "we'll sue" thing. Who are you suing? A school? You're suing yourselves for f--ks sake. Then these same idiots will complain about taxes being too high.

    And for what damages? Who's harmed? That your kid was told to change their shirt? Principal said to change it, do what we would have done as kids and change your shirt and shut the fuck up about it. This stuff just blows my mind. This is why I love school uniforms like my kids' school. Plain blue pants, white or blue golf shirt. If you want to wear something else - go to another school.

  6. #6
    Atomic Punk CaboChris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by It's Mike View Post
    This is why I love school uniforms like my kids' school. Plain blue pants, white or blue golf shirt. If you want to wear something else - go to another school.
    There is no legitimate reason for American public schools to not institute school uniforms.

    The UK and other nations have done this for decades. If a child can't afford the cost of a uniform then it's subsidized and that is something I would gladly pay for as a taxpayer.

    In North Wales, the kids wear different colored uniforms depending on which school they go to. It helps make it easier to identify them as well. "Oh, that kid goes to so and so school..."

    I'm sure it hasn't stifled their desire to "express themselves' either. Our kids have enough to worry about, being made fun of, because they aren't sporting the latest fashion?

    Cost can't be an issue, because the parent is the one who bears the cost. That leaves school districts and the ACLU as the main opposition and why anybody would be against uniforms, I'll never understand.

  7. #7
    Baluchitherium
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaboChris View Post
    There is no legitimate reason for American public schools to not institute school uniforms.

    The UK and other nations have done this for decades. If a child can't afford the cost of a uniform then it's subsidized and that is something I would gladly pay for as a taxpayer.

    In North Wales, the kids wear different colored uniforms depending on which school they go to. It helps make it easier to identify them as well. "Oh, that kid goes to so and so school..."

    I'm sure it hasn't stifled their desire to "express themselves' either. Our kids have enough to worry about, being made fun of, because they aren't sporting the latest fashion?

    Cost can't be an issue, because the parent is the one who bears the cost. That leaves school districts and the ACLU as the main opposition and why anybody would be against uniforms, I'll never understand.
    I am Dick Punch, and I endorse this statement. I think it would absolutely cut down on the violence but also identify crooks by the schools they go to because lets face it, kids in high school are no good. Cops in my town while I was growing up always purchased a year book from all the schools around to use as mug shot books.
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  8. #8
    Atomic Punk lovemachine97(Version 2)'s Avatar
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    I actually think it's a bit of a non-issue. But you could make the argument that if wearing patriotic clothing on Cinco de Mayo is likely to start a problem in the United States, then just don't celebrate Cinco de Mayo at school. On the the one hand, there is a 160-year tradition of celebrating it in CA (though it didn't become a big day in the rest of the US until beer companies got a hold of it in the '80s).

    But we don't even celebrate all US holidays in school (especially high school), much less Mexican holidays. Seems like the better answer IMO.

    One of the problems with uniforms in the US is that schools can barely provide enough books sometimes, much less uniforms. Now, you can force parents to buy PE uniforms, for example, but you can't force them to buy them from the school. Uniforms are more expensive than a pair of shorts and a t-shirt you can get at Walmart for $7. Plus you need at least three of them. So a lot will have to be provided for free, and schools don't have the budget for that. And what gauge do you go by? If you go by free or reduced lunch, you're asking for fraud. No proof of income is needed for that program.

    The other problem is that you have to go to the school that you are districted for. If you don't want your kid to wear a uniform, you don't have a choice to go to another school unless you want to pay for a private school. Or you have to defraud the school and provide an address that isn't yours.

    I agree, I think uniforms are good, but I don't see it being a nation-wide solution. Besides, public schools have to take everybody. If a kid refuses, tough to expel him just for that.

  9. #9
    Forum Frontman fudd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voivod View Post


    A federal appeals court will not reconsider a unanimous February ruling upholding the actions of a principal in a Northern California high school who ordered students wearing American flag shirts inside out during a 2010 Cinco de Mayo celebration.

    Live Oak High School in the San Jose suburb of Morgan Hill had a prior history of problems between white and Latino students.

    Parents and a few lawmakers had argued that the actions violated the students’ Constitutional right to free speech.

    In the original ruling, a three-judge panel of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals decided that past problems at the school gave officials sufficient and justifiable reasons for the order. In its opinion, the court said that schools in general have wide latitude in curbing certain civil rights to ensure campus safety.

    On Wednesday, the Circuit Court of Appeals announced that a majority of its 29 judges had voted against rehearing the case.

    In 2009, a group of Mexican-American students waved a Mexican flag around the Live Oak campus.

    Some non-Hispanic students then raised the American flag on a tree, and the two groups exchanged profanity-laced threats.

    The next year, after the principal issued the order for students wearing Stars and Stripes shirts to turn them inside-out or go home with an excused absence, the incident garnered national attention as many expressed outrage that students were barred from wearing patriotic clothing.

    Three children and their parents sued the school district with the assistance of the American Freedom Law Center and other conservative legal organizations.

    William Becker, a lawyer representing the students called Wednesday’s decision “outrageous” and said he’d likely take the case to the U.S. Supreme Court.

    “(We) will not allow the politically correct judiciary to insult our flag,” he wrote in his blog.

    In February, a three-judge panel ruled that it was not the court’s place to second-guess the school’s anti-violence efforts.

    "The past events "made it reasonable for school officials to proceed as though the threat of a potentially violent disturbance was real," Judge M. Margaret McKeown wrote for the panel.

    But, in his blog, Becker said wearing an American flag to school is a symbol of patriotism, not aggression.

    “The American flag is not a symbol of racism or division,” Becker said. “It is the symbol of freedom and unity. Americans have fought and died to protect that flag, and now we are told to conceal it so we don’t offend Mexican aliens, some of whom entered this country illegally.”

    Cinco de Mayo marks the Battle of Puebla on May 5, 1862, when Mexican troops defeated a French army of Napoleon III. In many ways, it is more of a holiday in the U.S. than in Mexico, a celebration of Latino heritage with parades and revelry in many major cities.
    Hold up. So wearing the American flag shirt is offensive to Chicanos? Then maybe they should go back to own their home countries. Jesus. Tired of being asked to press one or two anyway. See ya.

    America is a melting pot but this type of nonsensical shit is getting out of hand. Waste of time, money, and in this case a child's education.

  10. #10
    Atomic Punk
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    Quote Originally Posted by lovemachine97(Version 2) View Post
    One of the problems with uniforms in the US is that schools can barely provide enough books sometimes, much less uniforms. Now, you can force parents to buy PE uniforms, for example, but you can't force them to buy them from the school. Uniforms are more expensive than a pair of shorts and a t-shirt you can get at Walmart for $7. Plus you need at least three of them. So a lot will have to be provided for free, and schools don't have the budget for that. And what gauge do you go by? If you go by free or reduced lunch, you're asking for fraud. No proof of income is needed for that program.

    The other problem is that you have to go to the school that you are districted for. If you don't want your kid to wear a uniform, you don't have a choice to go to another school unless you want to pay for a private school. Or you have to defraud the school and provide an address that isn't yours.

    I agree, I think uniforms are good, but I don't see it being a nation-wide solution. Besides, public schools have to take everybody. If a kid refuses, tough to expel him just for that.
    I'm a bit confused by your first paragraph...Parents have to buy their kids clothes, do they not? Over here, we don't buy the uniform from the school - we buy the basics (shirt, trousers / skirt, jacket, etc) from the supermarket for a few quid; the only exception is the jumper, which has the school logo on it, and again can be bought relatively inexpensively from local shops. Alternatively, as a lot of parents do, you just buy it second-hand from the school - certainly every time my son has grown out of his uniform, we've just donated the bits that are in good condition - recycling at its finest! There's no stigma to it - because ALL the parents do it! To me, the financial argument (ie, that parents can't afford school uniform) is complete nonsense - it's cheaper than most items of clothing, and it saves loads of money being wasted on keeping your kids in the latest fashions in an effort to prevent their being bullied. As CC mentioned, for those parents who are genuinely unable to stretch to buying school uniform in any way, shape, or form, there are subsidies available, should parents wish to apply.

    In my whole experience as a former pupil, teacher, and now parent, I can honestly say, hand on heart, that I have never known a child "refuse" to wear the uniform - it just doesn't seem to be part of the cultural mind-set...I think, given the fact that this is how our society works, and that this is the status-quo with which our kids are familiar, it just doesn't seem to occur to them to refuse...It's seen as being akin to a work-place: wearing a uniform differentiates between work and leisure time, and the majority of kids see the sense in saving their 'best' clothes for outside of school. Of course, you'll always get one or two flouting the rules, especially in secondary school - but the normal course of action is for the culprit to be sent home until they have the 'proper' uniform. Again, the vast majority of parents are wholly supportive of that - (and those that aren't, are fully aware that they are liable to be prosecuted / fined if they don't get their kids into school, so they tend to make the effort!)
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  11. #11
    Atomic Punk CaboChris's Avatar
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    School uniforms are not a nation-wide option. After all, we're the US, we're unique, and what works in another country can't possibly work in the States.

    This is because... you guessed it.

    We're unique and too big.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by dibblekins View Post
    I'm a bit confused by your first paragraph...Parents have to buy their kids clothes, do they not? Over here, we don't buy the uniform from the school - we buy the basics (shirt, trousers / skirt, jacket, etc) from the supermarket for a few quid; the only exception is the jumper, which has the school logo on it, and again can be bought relatively inexpensively from local shops. Alternatively, as a lot of parents do, you just buy it second-hand from the school - certainly every time my son has grown out of his uniform, we've just donated the bits that are in good condition - recycling at its finest! There's no stigma to it - because ALL the parents do it! To me, the financial argument (ie, that parents can't afford school uniform) is complete nonsense - it's cheaper than most items of clothing, and it saves loads of money being wasted on keeping your kids in the latest fashions in an effort to prevent their being bullied. As CC mentioned, for those parents who are genuinely unable to stretch to buying school uniform in any way, shape, or form, there are subsidies available, should parents wish to apply.

    In my whole experience as a former pupil, teacher, and now parent, I can honestly say, hand on heart, that I have never known a child "refuse" to wear the uniform - it just doesn't seem to be part of the cultural mind-set...I think, given the fact that this is how our society works, and that this is the status-quo with which our kids are familiar, it just doesn't seem to occur to them to refuse...It's seen as being akin to a work-place: wearing a uniform differentiates between work and leisure time, and the majority of kids see the sense in saving their 'best' clothes for outside of school. Of course, you'll always get one or two flouting the rules, especially in secondary school - but the normal course of action is for the culprit to be sent home until they have the 'proper' uniform. Again, the vast majority of parents are wholly supportive of that - (and those that aren't, are fully aware that they are liable to be prosecuted / fined if they don't get their kids into school, so they tend to make the effort!)
    I'm not making a personal argument. I am just giving insight as to why it hasn't happened on a large scale here. My personal feelings are uniforms are better.

    There are cases in the court system as I write this about forcing parents to pay for things. School districts have lawyers on retainer so, among larger issues, they know what they can and cannot ask their students to pay for. At one point, even charging tickets to prom--a voluntary school activity--was under fire.

    School districts in the US, and especially CA, are always out of money, so expecting them to foot the bill is going to be a tough thing to get going if they can't even afford to have enough teachers to not have crazy class sizes. In my student teaching stint 2 years ago I had a 7th grade English period with over 45 students. And we're not a crazy big city here in San Bernardino County.

    An additional problem in the US is that there is fraud all over the place. There is almost no enforcement of "free lunch" recipients, so in a town like mine where the median household income is over $50k (and the cost of living is way low), you see 90+% free lunch because all you have to do is say you don't make enough money to afford to feed your kid at lunchtime. The right is not going to go for expenditures with that kind of fraud potential.

    Again, I think uniforms are the way to go. But the way the US does things, I doubt it ever becomes widespread outside of charter or private schools.

  13. #13
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    I have gotten to the point of saying assimilate or just get the fuck out.

    I'm tired of it. And no, I am not saying forget your cultural heritage. The Italian-Americans, Greek-Americans and a plethora of other cultural and ethnic groups were able to integrate into our national fabric and keep their own identity pretty damn well.

    Why we now bend over backwards for people coming to OUR country is just beyond fucking understanding.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lovemachine97(Version 2) View Post
    I'm not making a personal argument. I am just giving insight as to why it hasn't happened on a large scale here. My personal feelings are uniforms are better.

    There are cases in the court system as I write this about forcing parents to pay for things. School districts have lawyers on retainer so, among larger issues, they know what they can and cannot ask their students to pay for. At one point, even charging tickets to prom--a voluntary school activity--was under fire.

    School districts in the US, and especially CA, are always out of money, so expecting them to foot the bill is going to be a tough thing to get going if they can't even afford to have enough teachers to not have crazy class sizes. In my student teaching stint 2 years ago I had a 7th grade English period with over 45 students. And we're not a crazy big city here in San Bernardino County.

    An additional problem in the US is that there is fraud all over the place. There is almost no enforcement of "free lunch" recipients, so in a town like mine where the median household income is over $50k (and the cost of living is way low), you see 90+% free lunch because all you have to do is say you don't make enough money to afford to feed your kid at lunchtime. The right is not going to go for expenditures with that kind of fraud potential.

    Again, I think uniforms are the way to go. But the way the US does things, I doubt it ever becomes widespread outside of charter or private schools.
    I don't understand your country at all sometimes. Why a free lunch program is needed in the first place, and why is it so hard to say "all students must wear blue pants and a white golf shirt". If you can't afford to pack your kids a lunch and get them a blue pair pants and a white golf shirt, maybe that should be a clue to stop having f-ing children.

  15. #15
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    No Mike, that is the sign that you need to have MORE children so you can get MORE money from local, state and federal agencies. Economies of scale.

    Dumb ass Canucks, no wonder you guys aren't bankrupt like we are.
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