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  1. #1
    Atomic Punk bklynboy68's Avatar
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    Default Federal Judge Opens Door Further To Group Marriage

    FEDERAL JUDGE OPENS DOOR FURTHER TO GROUP MARRIAGE

    August 28th 2014


    The polygamist reality TV stars of "Sister Wives" can sleep easy tonight as a Federal Judge in Utah has struck down at least part of the State's ban on polygamy. 

    The Utah ban made it illegal and punishable by up to five years in prison for anyone to cohabit with someone they are not legally married to. This part of the law was struck down by Federal Judge Clark Waddoups last December. At the time, the Judge let stand the part of the statute that makes it illegal to have more than one marriage license. 

    In his latest ruling this week, the Judge found that Utah County Attorney Jeff Buhman had violated the constitutional rights of the Brown family when he investigated them for bigamy. The court ordered the County to pay for the court costs of the Brown family. 

    The Brown family attorney, Jonathan Turley, professor of law at George Washington University and a frequent television pundit, said, "For the state of Utah to appeal this case, it will ache to go to Denver and argue against freedom of religion." 

    The State of Utah had to outlaw polygamy, quite common among the dominant Mormon faithful in Utah before Utah was allowed statehood. The state anticipated arrangements like the Browns, where polygamous arrangements were created without state-approved marriages. 

    Traditional marriage proponents have been mocked for asserting that same-sex marriage would inevitably lead to the legalization of polygamy. Professor Robert George of Princeton, along with Ryan Anderson of the Heritage Foundation have argued that once the state eliminates the two gender rule for marriage, based upon the procreative nature of such couplings, there would be no remaining underlying principle to prevent any kind of marital arrangement, including polygamy. 


    GET GOV'T OUT OF MARRIAGE!
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  2. #2
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
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    an incredibly ridiculous ruling.

  3. #3
    Good Enough pickslide's Avatar
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    The state has no business determining rules of marriage for consenting adults.

    TK

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    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pickslide View Post
    The state has no business determining rules of marriage for consenting adults.

    TK
    if the state gets out of that business then we'll need a complete re-working of many parts of life. And I can't wait for those who think the state should get out of this business of marriage to quickly change their minds when Muslims start demanding to have 7 wives and for the state to sanction that.

  5. #5
    Atomic Punk bklynboy68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by It's Mike View Post
    if the state gets out of that business then we'll need a complete re-working of many parts of life. And I can't wait for those who think the state should get out of this business of marriage to quickly change their minds when Muslims start demanding to have 7 wives and for the state to sanction that.
    There would be nothing for the state to sanction if they are out of the marriage business. Right now it looks like we're on our way to allow plural marriages so they won't have to demand anything.
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  6. #6
    Good Enough pickslide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by It's Mike View Post
    if the state gets out of that business then we'll need a complete re-working of many parts of life. And I can't wait for those who think the state should get out of this business of marriage to quickly change their minds when Muslims start demanding to have 7 wives and for the state to sanction that.
    We DO need a re-working of many parts of life. We should start with the part where consenting adults have to consult the state before forming relationships. If a man is stupid enough to want seven wives, let him have them, provided his wives are equal under the law and not abused.

    We should make laws against actual crimes and stop trying to manage the personal lives of others by force of law.

    TK

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    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bklynboy68 View Post
    There would be nothing for the state to sanction if they are out of the marriage business. Right now it looks like we're on our way to allow plural marriages so they won't have to demand anything.
    If you start allowing plural marriages then just wait til the eventual immigration disaster you'll face. What happens when someone wants to bring in his 37 wives and insists on all them be looked at as the American definition of a spouse? What happens when employers who offer health care for spouses now realize that doesn't mean paying for one but rather multiple different families? This is a place western society needs to avoid at all costs.

  8. #8
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pickslide View Post
    We DO need a re-working of many parts of life. We should start with the part where consenting adults have to consult the state before forming relationships. If a man is stupid enough to want seven wives, let him have them, provided his wives are equal under the law and not abused.

    We should make laws against actual crimes and stop trying to manage the personal lives of others by force of law.

    TK
    conseniting adults have have relationships. Govt can, and should, demand certain things before allowing the rights that come with marriage.

  9. #9
    Atomic Punk bklynboy68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by It's Mike View Post
    If you start allowing plural marriages then just wait til the eventual immigration disaster you'll face. What happens when someone wants to bring in his 37 wives and insists on all them be looked at as the American definition of a spouse? What happens when employers who offer health care for spouses now realize that doesn't mean paying for one but rather multiple different families? This is a place western society needs to avoid at all costs.
    Mike, you're sounding like a right wing racist. Seriously, I understand what you're talking about and these are things that social conservatives were pointing out. You know what happened I don't have to rehash it for you. However, instead of both sides putting their heads together and coming up with a constitutional solution , we got a monster mash of name calling , lying, demonization , etc etc. NOW WHAT?
    Last edited by bklynboy68; 08.28.14 at 01:48 PM.
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    "My beef is people thinking Bon Jovi is good cuz they sold lots of records to housewives." -tango

    "But being number one doesn’t really mean jack fuck all. We sold twice as many records as other records that year (1984) that landed in the Number One position." ~Eddie Van Halen

  10. #10
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bklynboy68 View Post
    Mike, you're sounding like a right wing racist. Seriously, I understand what you're talking about and these are things that social conservatives we're pointing out. You know what happened I don't have to rehash it for you. However, instead of both sides putting their heads together and coming up with a constitutional solution , we got a monster mash of name calling , lying, demonization , etc etc. NOW WHAT?
    lol - I am right wing on many issues (and a communist on others).

    I just really fear a policy where a man can have multiple wives on so many levels. I just think this takes us down an incredibly dangerous road as a society. Just something simple life welfare. If a man bails on his wife and kids they often end up on welfare. What happens if he 8 wives? Do they all end up on the state supporting them?

    Not to mention the rarely talked about issue of if one man has 8 wives then this leaves 7 "extra" men in society.

    This is why i didn't like gay marriage going through. I was fine giving gay couples all of the rights of marriage but giving them the term marriage I feared would take us down this road. And here we are. In Canada we had a similar case in 2012 but the courts rule against it and upheld our laws against polygamy. I hope that is the end of the debate here but it won't be.

  11. #11
    Atomic Punk bklynboy68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by It's Mike View Post
    lol - I am right wing on many issues (and a communist on others).

    I just really fear a policy where a man can have multiple wives on so many levels. I just think this takes us down an incredibly dangerous road as a society. Just something simple life welfare. If a man bails on his wife and kids they often end up on welfare. What happens if he 8 wives? Do they all end up on the state supporting them?

    Not to mention the rarely talked about issue of if one man has 8 wives then this leaves 7 "extra" men in society.

    This is why i didn't like gay marriage going through. I was fine giving gay couples all of the rights of marriage but giving them the term marriage I feared would take us down this road. And here we are. In Canada we had a similar case in 2012 but the courts rule against it and upheld our laws against polygamy. I hope that is the end of the debate here but it won't be.
    I'm going to go out on a limb and say that plural marriage will rock the marriage debate in America. How can you acknowledge one group's definition of marriage and not another's. This is exactly what people feared.


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    "My beef is people thinking Bon Jovi is good cuz they sold lots of records to housewives." -tango

    "But being number one doesn’t really mean jack fuck all. We sold twice as many records as other records that year (1984) that landed in the Number One position." ~Eddie Van Halen

  12. #12
    Atomic Punk Dave's Dreidel's Avatar
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    Having a definition of a family unit as being one or two adults and their dependent children (if any) makes a lot of things like insurance and forms of social insurance much easier to manage.

    Not sure how you make this work on tax returns, health insurance, welfare, etc.

    But we're Americans, we're fucking stupid, we'll just jump first and figure out to legislate it and pay for it later.
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    This is what happens when government gets into every little part of life and you have to keep twisting and turning the law to get results that we want.

    There is a very basic question here: do I own me, or does the government own me? It can't be both. The Constitution protects my freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, and therefore freedom of association, as well as freedom of contract, from the government. Therefore, I can enter into any relationship that I want, and I get to define that relationship, as well as the parameters of that relationship, as long as I don't encroach on anyone else's freedom.

    If I want a gay husband or three wives, and that gay husband or those three wives want me, then that freedom is protected at the most basic level of US law.

    If other bad policies are a reason why we would limit any of these basic freedoms, then we need to revisit those bad policies, not just limit these things because they are unpopular or in the minority. That's exactly why we have these protections.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lovemachine97(Version 2) View Post
    This is what happens when government gets into every little part of life and you have to keep twisting and turning the law to get results that we want.

    There is a very basic question here: do I own me, or does the government own me? It can't be both. The Constitution protects my freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, and therefore freedom of association, as well as freedom of contract, from the government. Therefore, I can enter into any relationship that I want, and I get to define that relationship, as well as the parameters of that relationship, as long as I don't encroach on anyone else's freedom.

    If I want a gay husband or three wives, and that gay husband or those three wives want me, then that freedom is protected at the most basic level of US law.

    If other bad policies are a reason why we would limit any of these basic freedoms, then we need to revisit those bad policies, not just limit these things because they are unpopular or in the minority. That's exactly why we have these protections.
    I think there is a large difference between having the freedom of relationships and asking govt to encourage/subsidize this sort of relationship. You can have 9 women you are committed to. You can call them wives if you wish. We, as society, don't need to legitimize that relationship and encourage others to do the same. Because a society with a lot of people with 9 wives is not a society that most of us have any interest in.

    We disagree on whether or not government encouraging marriage is "bad policy". Personally I think it's fantastic policy to do this. And to be honest a govt that does not have some sort of marriage policy is destined for absolute legal chaos. You cannot simply say "call marriage whatever you want and we won't get in the way". It sounds really nice and all. But it's not practical. If you have 7 wives and you get hit by a bus and don't have a will, who gets your assets? Wife 1? 2? Do we split it seven ways? Who gets the kids? Does you employer need to have individual policies for every relationship type you want to call a marriage? That's just not possible. Am I as an employer allowed to not hire you because I don't want to offer health benefits to your 7 spouses? Is that allowed? Do you get paternity leave for each of your "marriages"? hell you could work it where you'd never work a day in your life.

    It's all well and nice to say "govt should stay out of the issue of marriage". But it's just not reasonable. There's a reason every civilized nation in the world has marriage policy. And there's a reason why every shithole that you'd never want to live in encourages men to have as many wives as they want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by It's Mike View Post
    I think there is a large difference between having the freedom of relationships and asking govt to encourage/subsidize this sort of relationship. You can have 9 women you are committed to. You can call them wives if you wish. We, as society, don't need to legitimize that relationship and encourage others to do the same. Because a society with a lot of people with 9 wives is not a society that most of us have any interest in.

    We disagree on whether or not government encouraging marriage is "bad policy". Personally I think it's fantastic policy to do this. And to be honest a govt that does not have some sort of marriage policy is destined for absolute legal chaos. You cannot simply say "call marriage whatever you want and we won't get in the way". It sounds really nice and all. But it's not practical. If you have 7 wives and you get hit by a bus and don't have a will, who gets your assets? Wife 1? 2? Do we split it seven ways? Who gets the kids? Does you employer need to have individual policies for every relationship type you want to call a marriage? That's just not possible. Am I as an employer allowed to not hire you because I don't want to offer health benefits to your 7 spouses? Is that allowed? Do you get paternity leave for each of your "marriages"? hell you could work it where you'd never work a day in your life.

    It's all well and nice to say "govt should stay out of the issue of marriage". But it's just not reasonable. There's a reason every civilized nation in the world has marriage policy. And there's a reason why every shithole that you'd never want to live in encourages men to have as many wives as they want.
    I don't think marriage should be incentivized, nor does it need to be. I can't think of anyone who gets married because the government allows it. However, I know lots of gay people in loving relationships who want to adopt children and start a family, but they don't get married because government says they can't. And if I knew two or three people who were good people and wanted to do the same, I would wonder why we never talk about legally stopping two shitty people from marrying each other and raising shitty kids, but we would never let a gay couple or three people do it because--gasp!--it's not what we perceive as normal. Of course, the polygamy scenario is unlikely to play out much because, well, there aren't really that many scenarios where ALL parties want to voluntarily enter into such a relationship.

    People get married because it is tradition--they love someone and want to start a family unit. Maybe that involves, kids, maybe it doesn't. But I have never heard anyone say, 'Thank God government gave us marriage or I wouldn't be here right now in this tux marrying you.' I haven't heard anyone say, 'You know, times have been rough, so the only reason I am sticking around to make it work is because the government gave us this damned piece of paper!' Nor have I ever heard anyone say, 'I would divorce you right now if it weren't for this pesky license that controls our relationship!' That's because people get married because they want to conform to societal norms, not because government says they can.

    American society is not going to be littered with people with 9 wives. How many people do you know that are just waiting with baited breath for this Utah thing to play out so they can take 6 women with them and go live their dream in that state? I know zero. That's because this is a small percentage of people, probably much smaller than the 3-5% of society that is homosexual. Will some more people try it? Maybe. But those people are probably already living that life, they just didn't go to city hall for 6 marriage licenses.

    If people didn't have the legal safety net of government-sanctioned marriage, they would be more likely to enter into voluntary legal agreements that would take care of exactly what you're talking about. And that's the way it should be. How many of us check on our bank's health and how it spends our money? Almost none of us do, because we don't have to--the government guarantees us up to $200,000 if something happens. In this case, you'd need to be proactive. You might use a lawyer, maybe government could offer discounted legal services (not in my ideal world, but I am willing to compromise), and you can't tell me Legal Zoom wouldn't offer some do it yourself prenups at an affordable price.

    Anyway, Mike, I enjoy debating you, so take this in the spirit with which it's intended: you're smarter than that last paragraph. There is no comparison between people freely entering into a relationship, and men buying brides or government/whatever passes for government forcing polygamy onto people, especially women. That is a problem of too little freedom, not too much freedom. Besides, even if those relationships were voluntary, if I made a list of the top 100 problems in the countries you're referring to, voluntary polygamy wouldn't make the list.

 

 

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