Follow us on...
Follow us on Twitter Follow us on Facebook Watch us on YouTube
Register
Page 4 of 17 FirstFirst 123456714 ... LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 254
  1. #46
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    03.26.06
    Age
    44
    Location
    Vaughan, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    38,850
    Favorite VH Album

    like them all, no favourite
    Last Online

    01.19.19 @ 11:23 AM
    Likes
    1,959
    Liked 9,673 Times in 5,431 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lovemachine97(Version 2) View Post
    I'm fine with them voluntarily being charitable. But it seems as if--and maybe I am wrong--that the Pope would prefer the United States forcibly take my income and redistribute it to the needy. "Charity" by force, by threat of fine and imprisonment. That is the problem I have. They can do it voluntarily, but I cannot.
    I don't think the Pope has written any proposals for the US legislature to look at. The Church's teachings on wealth are pretty clear though, they are the teaching of Jesus when he said "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God". Lot of rich people on the right politically have selectively missed this pretty clear part of the Bible. And the left trying to tie themselves to the Pope is pretty laugable as well when you consider their positions on most social issues are in complete opposition to the Pope's.

  2. #47
    Atomic Punk
    Join Date
    06.05.03
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    16,204
    Last Online

    01.19.19 @ 10:59 AM
    Likes
    1,216
    Liked 4,059 Times in 2,423 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by It's Mike View Post
    I don't think the Pope has written any proposals for the US legislature to look at. The Church's teachings on wealth are pretty clear though, they are the teaching of Jesus when he said "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God". Lot of rich people on the right politically have selectively missed this pretty clear part of the Bible. And the left trying to tie themselves to the Pope is pretty laugable as well when you consider their positions on most social issues are in complete opposition to the Pope's.
    Right, but by condemning the economic system of the US, calling it the "dung of the devil," and saying it is "intolerable," and that we should be "working for a just distribution of the fruits of . . . human labor," and even calling for the poor to rise up against this "new colonialism," it sure sounds to me that he wants systemic economic change from the top down in the US and other places.

    I might be mistaken, but Jesus wanted the rich to voluntarily give, yes? I would think that riches being forcibly taken and redistributed against the will of the rich man is not exactly what he had in mind in allowing him to enter the Kingdom of God.

    In other words, two different paths to the same outcome: 1) if I am Warren Buffet and I voluntarily give 90% of my wealth to charity, versus 2) a change in US policy forcibly takes 90% of my wealth against my will in order to redistribute it, only the former is what Jesus was talking about, right?

  3. #48
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    03.26.06
    Age
    44
    Location
    Vaughan, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    38,850
    Favorite VH Album

    like them all, no favourite
    Last Online

    01.19.19 @ 11:23 AM
    Likes
    1,959
    Liked 9,673 Times in 5,431 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lovemachine97(Version 2) View Post
    Right, but by condemning the economic system of the US, calling it the "dung of the devil," and saying it is "intolerable," and that we should be "working for a just distribution of the fruits of . . . human labor," and even calling for the poor to rise up against this "new colonialism," it sure sounds to me that he wants systemic economic change from the top down in the US and other places.

    I might be mistaken, but Jesus wanted the rich to voluntarily give, yes? I would think that riches being forcibly taken and redistributed against the will of the rich man is not exactly what he had in mind in allowing him to enter the Kingdom of God.

    In other words, two different paths to the same outcome: 1) if I am Warren Buffet and I voluntarily give 90% of my wealth to charity, versus 2) a change in US policy forcibly takes 90% of my wealth against my will in order to redistribute it, only the former is what Jesus was talking about, right?
    The church would prefer option 1. Every single time.

    The church sides far more with the right politically on financial issues than they do the left. Their policy on "the poor" really mirrors my own (not a coincidence). They believe in helping those who cannot help themselves. Pope John Paul spoke very clearly on this in his criticism of the welfare state being something that takes away the energy of people to help themselves.

    The Church, and I believe almost all Americans, take issue the way that income is "distributed" in America. No Christian, no human, can look at the wealth of the top .1% of Americans and not see that as a huge problem.

  4. #49
    Atomic Punk
    Join Date
    06.05.03
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    16,204
    Last Online

    01.19.19 @ 10:59 AM
    Likes
    1,216
    Liked 4,059 Times in 2,423 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by It's Mike View Post
    The church would prefer option 1. Every single time.

    The church sides far more with the right politically on financial issues than they do the left. Their policy on "the poor" really mirrors my own (not a coincidence). They believe in helping those who cannot help themselves. Pope John Paul spoke very clearly on this in his criticism of the welfare state being something that takes away the energy of people to help themselves.

    The Church, and I believe almost all Americans, take issue the way that income is "distributed" in America. No Christian, no human, can look at the wealth of the top .1% of Americans and not see that as a huge problem.
    My only point in getting involved is that the Pope seems to be calling for forced redistribution of wealth, not voluntary, and I think that is stepping outside of his bounds (and I married into a Catholic family).

    You could make the same argument about the poor in the US versus the average Ethiopian. In fact, a family of three making $25,000 in the US is poor--in the US--but I think that kind of wealth to an Ethiopian is indistinguishable from, say, Bill Gates. Yet while he has way more wealth than I do, I am more wealthy because of Bill Gates. And what allowed the poor here to become so rich by global standards is a market economy.

    Of course, everyone in my wife's family said the same thing--doesn't the Pope understand that the economic system that has lifted more people out of poverty is capitalism?

  5. The Following Member Likes This Post:


  6. #50
    Atomic Punk bklynboy68's Avatar
    Join Date
    01.10.12
    Posts
    23,643
    Favorite VH Album

    The Magnificent 7
    Last Online

    01.19.19 @ 07:19 AM
    Likes
    17,744
    Liked 15,396 Times in 8,680 Posts


    Premium Member

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lovemachine97(Version 2) View Post
    My only point in getting involved is that the Pope seems to be calling for forced redistribution of wealth, not voluntary, and I think that is stepping outside of his bounds (and I married into a Catholic family).

    You could make the same argument about the poor in the US versus the average Ethiopian. In fact, a family of three making $25,000 in the US is poor--in the US--but I think that kind of wealth to an Ethiopian is indistinguishable from, say, Bill Gates. Yet while he has way more wealth than I do, I am more wealthy because of Bill Gates. And what allowed the poor here to become so rich by global standards is a market economy.

    Of course, everyone in my wife's family said the same thing--doesn't the Pope understand that the economic system that has lifted more people out of poverty is capitalism?
    I agree. This Pope is an odd one to me. If his advisors on this issue are anything like his advisors on climate change, the church is in trouble.
     "He has a swaggering retro machismo that will give hives to the Steinem cabal" -Camille Paglia on Donald Trump

    "But, fucking with Brook is like fucking with hot shit on and ax handle. You just don't get a grip"-track5

    "Make way for the bad guy"- Tony Montana

    'This hamburger don't need no helper"- David Lee Roth

    "I wish Bon Jovi would've given me a call before he recorded all of his hits, because the lyrics would've been smarter, the melodies would've been much more smashing, and they would've sold a lot fewer records." -David Lee Roth

    "My beef is people thinking Bon Jovi is good cuz they sold lots of records to housewives." -tango

    "But being number one doesn’t really mean jack fuck all. We sold twice as many records as other records that year (1984) that landed in the Number One position." ~Eddie Van Halen

  7. #51
    Banned!
    Join Date
    09.23.11
    Age
    46
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    22,777
    Last Online

    11.25.18 @ 07:41 PM
    Likes
    5,753
    Liked 11,183 Times in 6,763 Posts


    Premium Member

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bklynboy68 View Post
    I agree. This Pope is an odd one to me. If his advisors on this issue are anything like his advisors on climate change, the church is in trouble.
    Really?

    In "trouble"?

    2000 years and THIS Pope is going to send the Church in downward spiral?

    Capitalism is doing just fine with or without the Pope's input.

    Big shocker! The Pope wants more done by governments to help the poor.

    My gosh, the audacity!

  8. #52
    Atomic Punk bklynboy68's Avatar
    Join Date
    01.10.12
    Posts
    23,643
    Favorite VH Album

    The Magnificent 7
    Last Online

    01.19.19 @ 07:19 AM
    Likes
    17,744
    Liked 15,396 Times in 8,680 Posts


    Premium Member

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CaboChris View Post
    Really?

    In "trouble"?

    2000 years and THIS Pope is going to send the Church in downward spiral?

    Capitalism is doing just fine with or without the Pope's input.

    Big shocker! The Pope wants more done by governments to help the poor.

    My gosh, the audacity!
    Funny you posted this. According to prophecy (St.Malachy) he is the last Pope. And I stand by what I said about his advisors. If they are anything like his climate change advisor, we're in trouble.

    “The smoke of satan has entered the Church”. – Pope Paul VI, 1972
     "He has a swaggering retro machismo that will give hives to the Steinem cabal" -Camille Paglia on Donald Trump

    "But, fucking with Brook is like fucking with hot shit on and ax handle. You just don't get a grip"-track5

    "Make way for the bad guy"- Tony Montana

    'This hamburger don't need no helper"- David Lee Roth

    "I wish Bon Jovi would've given me a call before he recorded all of his hits, because the lyrics would've been smarter, the melodies would've been much more smashing, and they would've sold a lot fewer records." -David Lee Roth

    "My beef is people thinking Bon Jovi is good cuz they sold lots of records to housewives." -tango

    "But being number one doesn’t really mean jack fuck all. We sold twice as many records as other records that year (1984) that landed in the Number One position." ~Eddie Van Halen

  9. #53
    Atomic Punk
    Join Date
    06.05.03
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    16,204
    Last Online

    01.19.19 @ 10:59 AM
    Likes
    1,216
    Liked 4,059 Times in 2,423 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CaboChris View Post
    Really?

    In "trouble"?

    2000 years and THIS Pope is going to send the Church in downward spiral?

    Capitalism is doing just fine with or without the Pope's input.

    Big shocker! The Pope wants more done by governments to help the poor.

    My gosh, the audacity!
    I'm not very religious, but didn't Jesus want you to give charitably on a voluntary basis? If I don't pay taxes, men with guns take me to jail. So if I disagree with my income being forcibly taken and redistributed and I refuse, I am forcibly imprisoned. And it seems as if this idea is unilateral, regardless of how much I may or may not give charitably.

    So shouldn't the Pope be calling upon Americans and all people of the globe to voluntarily give more to the poor? I find it hard to believe that Jesus believed in "charity" at gunpoint.

    The Church gives money on a voluntary basis. So does my sister and brother in law, whose incomes combined put them squarely in the "1%" in the US, even if on the low end. If you add their effective income tax rate and all other taxes paid, they probably pay about 65% or more of their income overall in taxes (And yet they still give plenty of money voluntarily to charities and friends who need it.)

    I have a hard time reconciling the Christianity I was taught as a child and having money forcibly taken from you at gunpoint by threat of imprisonment. Tax evasion is no joke of a charge.
    Last edited by lovemachine97(Version 2); 07.14.15 at 03:51 PM.

  10. #54
    Atomic Punk bklynboy68's Avatar
    Join Date
    01.10.12
    Posts
    23,643
    Favorite VH Album

    The Magnificent 7
    Last Online

    01.19.19 @ 07:19 AM
    Likes
    17,744
    Liked 15,396 Times in 8,680 Posts


    Premium Member

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lovemachine97(Version 2) View Post
    I'm not very religious, but didn't Jesus want you to give charitably on a voluntary basis? If I don't pay taxes, men with guns take me to jail. So if I disagree with my income being forcibly taken and redistributed and I refuse, I am forcibly imprisoned. And it seems as if this idea is unilateral, regardless of how much I may or may not give charitably.

    So shouldn't the Pope be calling upon Americans and all people of the globe to voluntarily give more to the poor? I find it hard to believe that Jesus believed in "charity" at gunpoint.

    The Church gives money on a voluntary basis. So does my sister and brother in law, whose incomes combined put them squarely in the "1%" in the US, even if on the low end. If you add their effective income tax rate and all other taxes paid, they probably pay about 65% or more of their income overall in taxes (And yet they still give plenty of money voluntarily to charities and friends who need it.)

    I have a hard time reconciling the Christianity I was taught as a child and having money forcibly taken from you at gunpoint by threat of imprisonment. Tax evasion is no joke of a charge.
    You are correct. Jesus did not believe in "charity at gunpoint".
     "He has a swaggering retro machismo that will give hives to the Steinem cabal" -Camille Paglia on Donald Trump

    "But, fucking with Brook is like fucking with hot shit on and ax handle. You just don't get a grip"-track5

    "Make way for the bad guy"- Tony Montana

    'This hamburger don't need no helper"- David Lee Roth

    "I wish Bon Jovi would've given me a call before he recorded all of his hits, because the lyrics would've been smarter, the melodies would've been much more smashing, and they would've sold a lot fewer records." -David Lee Roth

    "My beef is people thinking Bon Jovi is good cuz they sold lots of records to housewives." -tango

    "But being number one doesn’t really mean jack fuck all. We sold twice as many records as other records that year (1984) that landed in the Number One position." ~Eddie Van Halen

  11. #55
    Banned!
    Join Date
    09.23.11
    Age
    46
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    22,777
    Last Online

    11.25.18 @ 07:41 PM
    Likes
    5,753
    Liked 11,183 Times in 6,763 Posts


    Premium Member

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bklynboy68 View Post
    You are correct. Jesus did not believe in "charity at gunpoint".

    And no Pope has ever advocated for compulsory charity at "gunpoint".

    Jesus.

  12. #56
    Atomic Punk
    Join Date
    06.05.03
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    16,204
    Last Online

    01.19.19 @ 10:59 AM
    Likes
    1,216
    Liked 4,059 Times in 2,423 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bklynboy68 View Post
    You are correct. Jesus did not believe in "charity at gunpoint".
    I feel like this is the major flaw with the left's "gotcha" go to, that Jesus wanted you to be charitable, yet no one seems to call anyone on it. If I voluntarily give to the poor, I am doing it for the right reasons (though Ayn Rand would argue that this is still a selfish act, and I would agree with her, if you want to give charitably, you are simply following through with your own values, which is a selfish act, not an altruistic one).

    I'll make a deal with the Pope. If my taxes go up in order to redistribute more wealth, I will make sure that my voluntary charitable contributions go down by the exact same amount. I don't lose out on any more money and I am that much closer to heaven!

  13. #57
    Atomic Punk
    Join Date
    06.05.03
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    16,204
    Last Online

    01.19.19 @ 10:59 AM
    Likes
    1,216
    Liked 4,059 Times in 2,423 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CaboChris View Post
    And no Pope has ever advocated for compulsory charity at "gunpoint".

    Jesus.
    So the Pope is against governments redistributing wealth?

  14. #58
    Banned!
    Join Date
    09.23.11
    Age
    46
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    22,777
    Last Online

    11.25.18 @ 07:41 PM
    Likes
    5,753
    Liked 11,183 Times in 6,763 Posts


    Premium Member

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lovemachine97(Version 2) View Post
    So the Pope is against governments redistributing wealth?
    Is he for redistributing at gunpoint? You tell me.

  15. #59
    Atomic Punk
    Join Date
    06.05.03
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    16,204
    Last Online

    01.19.19 @ 10:59 AM
    Likes
    1,216
    Liked 4,059 Times in 2,423 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CaboChris View Post
    Is he for redistributing at gunpoint? You tell me.
    Let's say the US passes a redistribution program. They increase taxes to do it, including mine. Come April, I do my taxes, and I withhold the increased amount with a note. "I, Ryan, refuse to pay this portion of my taxes because I do not believe in the new redistribution program."

    What happens? Does the IRS say, "That's a good one, Ryan, way to go. We'll let it slide." I find that unlikely.

    What I think is far more likely is that the IRS attempts to get the money from me, adding a fine each time I refuse. Eventually, they will garnish my wages. Well, what if, come the next April, I leave a note and refuse to pay the increased amount AND I withhold what they garnished?

    I think eventually men with guns show up and take me to jail.

    If there is no recourse for me refusing to pay into the redistribution program, then the law is completely impotent. Behind every law is implied force. Men with guns will show up and make you do it or put you in jail. That might be 5 steps beyond me refusing to pay, but it is the ultimate threat to MAKE me do it. You can't have force without it. And if there is no force, then I guess I can just refuse to pay my taxes. Can I do that and walk freely? No.

    If I refuse to pay taxes, men with guns take me to jail.

    Support for government redistribution of wealth is support for "charity" at gun point.
    Last edited by lovemachine97(Version 2); 07.14.15 at 04:21 PM.

  16. #60
    Atomic Punk bklynboy68's Avatar
    Join Date
    01.10.12
    Posts
    23,643
    Favorite VH Album

    The Magnificent 7
    Last Online

    01.19.19 @ 07:19 AM
    Likes
    17,744
    Liked 15,396 Times in 8,680 Posts


    Premium Member

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CaboChris View Post
    And no Pope has ever advocated for compulsory charity at "gunpoint".

    Jesus.
    Didn't say any Pope did.
     "He has a swaggering retro machismo that will give hives to the Steinem cabal" -Camille Paglia on Donald Trump

    "But, fucking with Brook is like fucking with hot shit on and ax handle. You just don't get a grip"-track5

    "Make way for the bad guy"- Tony Montana

    'This hamburger don't need no helper"- David Lee Roth

    "I wish Bon Jovi would've given me a call before he recorded all of his hits, because the lyrics would've been smarter, the melodies would've been much more smashing, and they would've sold a lot fewer records." -David Lee Roth

    "My beef is people thinking Bon Jovi is good cuz they sold lots of records to housewives." -tango

    "But being number one doesn’t really mean jack fuck all. We sold twice as many records as other records that year (1984) that landed in the Number One position." ~Eddie Van Halen

 

 

Similar Threads

  1. Die Hard 5
    By voivod in forum VH Fans Meeting Place (Non-Music)
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 03.01.10, 07:01 PM
  2. Live Free or Die Hard (Die Hard 4)
    By ZeoBandit in forum VH Fans Meeting Place (Non-Music)
    Replies: 79
    Last Post: 11.27.07, 10:58 PM
  3. "Dyin' Ain't So Hard For Men Like You And Me, It's Livin' That's Hard..."
    By chefcraig in forum VH Fans Meeting Place (Non-Music)
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 10.18.07, 04:54 AM
  4. Probably not too hard for you here
    By Chicoutimi CP in forum Bootleg Network
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 09.23.06, 02:03 PM
  5. California Girls
    By Bob_R in forum VH Songs/Albums/Videos
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 01.14.03, 04:19 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •