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  1. #1
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    Default "The Trouble with Never"'s inspiration: A New Yorker Cartoon?

    Trouble with Never ... Original inspiration?

    We've always heard DLR talk about how his lyric writing inspiration comes partially from his consumption of volumes of magazines over the years.

    Tonight, during my power walk, I listened to an NPR interview with a man who was introduced as the cartoonist most known for this 1993 cartoon (hoping the link works):





    The author of this 1993 cartoon has a new book called "How about never? Is never good for you?'

    This maybe the clearest example I know of any of DLR's lyrics directly referencing a magazine source... in this case, The New Yorker.

    Are there any other similar lyrical examples that I've forgotten?

    I seem to remember either Drop Dead Legs or I'll Wait being written about an underwear model in an magazine from that time, but that's a bit different haha.




    Below is the intereview link with streaming audio. It's is quite interesting and of course humorous. They discuss the cartoon early in the interview.

    http://www.npr.org/2014/03/24/293761...akes-us-get-it



    Cheers,
    mrC

    PS: I know what you're going to say: "Just what the hell was he doing listening to NPR instead of VH anyway?"



    Last edited by mrchristopher; 03.28.14 at 12:43 PM.
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  2. #2
    Sinner's Swing! Heisenberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrchristopher View Post
    This maybe the clearest example I know of any of DLR's lyrics directly referencing a magazine source... in this case, The New Yorker.

    Are there any other similar lyrical examples that I've forgotten?

    I seem to remember either Drop Dead Legs or I'll Wait being written about an underwear model in an magazine from that time, but that's a bit different
    " Headless Body in a Topless Bar " was a fairly famous newspaper headline.

    I'll Wait was the tune he said was inspired by a model. Not 100% sure but seem to recall it might have been from a Calvin Klein advertisement.
    " On a scale that ranges from deep dark depression to rip roaring fun ... most people idle between pissed off ...and not too pissed off " DLR 1997

    " I am the danger ... I am the one who knocks " Walter White 2011

  3. #3
    Eruption
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
    " Headless Body in a Topless Bar " was a fairly famous newspaper headline.

    I'll Wait was the tune he said was inspired by a model. Not 100% sure but seem to recall it might have been from a Calvin Klein advertisement.


    Good catch on the headless body in a topless bar!

    And right... I think it was a Rockline interview where he revealed the calvin Klein underwear ad. You're memory is better than mine. Cheers Heisenberg.

    I found and posted the New York Post "Headless Body" cover below

    It's very interesting how both the cartoon and the headline appeared in NY publications... which goes right along with TheROTHShow theme " The New York City Way" which he's been discussing in Season 2 of his Podcast.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/TheRothShow

    Anyone have any Robert Klien... I mean Calvin Klein underwear ads from the early 80s which they suspect were the inspiration for "I'll Wait"? haha.

    Warm regards,
    mrC

    (edit: Goodness, sorry this pic is so big!)

    Last edited by mrchristopher; 03.29.14 at 11:45 AM.
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  4. #4
    Good Enough pickslide's Avatar
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    "How's never sound to you?" is actually a pretty common, sarcastic way to say you don't want to be bothered with something. Whether Dave actually saw the cartoon is probably unknowable. But it's funny that you found it, and that it's almost an exact quote...

    TK

  5. #5
    Eruption
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    Quote Originally Posted by pickslide View Post
    "How's never sound to you?" is actually a pretty common, sarcastic way to say you don't want to be bothered with something. Whether Dave actually saw the cartoon is probably unknowable. But it's funny that you found it, and that it's almost an exact quote...

    TK


    Hey TK...

    Thanks for your comment.

    I agree, it certainly is common ...now! However, it seems it may have been culturally introduced in media through this famous cartoon back in 1993...

    That's what it seems to have been anyway... otherwise it wouldn't have been the funny and legendary cartoon it was in 1993.

    I could be wrong.

    (it's not likely however as I thought I was wrong once before, but I was merely mistaken) haha...

    Anyway your comment led me to do a bit of quick research... and found this mention in The Yale Book of Quotations ... where it is first attributed to the one and only Robert Mankoff. And 1993 appears to be the starting point from which the phrase was "firmly entrenched in the culture."



    FULL Article:

    THE STORY OF “HOW ABOUT NEVER”
    MARCH 28, 2014 - BY ROBERT MANKOFF:
    [link]http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/cartoonists/2014/03/the-story-of-how-about-never.html[/link]


    If you can find an earlier reference to that phrase, please put it up. I'd be interested, as my research wasn't much deeper than the NPR podcast and The New Yorker article.


    Also, if you can think of any other magazine/literary references from Dave's lyrics... please add them to the list!

    Cheers,
    mrC
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  6. #6
    Good Enough pickslide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrchristopher View Post
    Hey TK...

    Thanks for your comment.

    I agree, it certainly is common ...now! However, it seems it may have been culturally introduced in media through this famous cartoon back in 1993...

    That's what it seems to have been anyway... otherwise it wouldn't have been the funny and legendary cartoon it was in 1993.

    I could be wrong.

    (it's not likely however as I thought I was wrong once before, but I was merely mistaken) haha...

    Anyway your comment led me to do a bit of quick research... and found this mention in The Yale Book of Quotations ... where it is first attributed to the one and only Robert Mankoff. And 1993 appears to be the starting point from which the phrase was "firmly entrenched in the culture."



    FULL Article:

    THE STORY OF “HOW ABOUT NEVER”
    MARCH 28, 2014 - BY ROBERT MANKOFF:
    [link]http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/cartoonists/2014/03/the-story-of-how-about-never.html[/link]


    If you can find an earlier reference to that phrase, please put it up. I'd be interested, as my research wasn't much deeper than the NPR podcast and The New Yorker article.


    Also, if you can think of any other magazine/literary references from Dave's lyrics... please add them to the list!

    Cheers,
    mrC
    Wow. Interesting.

    TK

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
    " Headless Body in a Topless Bar " was a fairly famous newspaper headline.
    I remember that story quite well -- and the nightmares it inspired. http://nypost.com/2010/02/22/83-killer-in-denial/

    I'll Wait was the tune he said was inspired by a model. Not 100% sure but seem to recall it might have been from a Calvin Klein advertisement.
    The model who supposedly inspired the song was Josie Borain, but a quick Google search shows that she was the CK Underwear model in 1985, which would be a bit of a time warp. Also, didn't Michael MacDonald write the lyrics for "I'll Wait"?



    Last edited by Emerald Eyes; 04.01.14 at 04:23 PM. Reason: To add link to story of Headless Body in Topless Bar
    "Heels up to her face. Shimmy shimmy cocoa puffs"

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emerald Eyes View Post
    I remember that story quite well -- and the nightmares it inspired. http://nypost.com/2010/02/22/83-killer-in-denial/



    The model who supposedly inspired the song was Josie Borain, but a quick Google search shows that she was the CK Underwear model in 1985, which would be a bit of a time warp. Also, didn't Michael MacDonald write the lyrics for "I'll Wait"?





    Emerald Eyes, thank you for adding some great information about "headless body" and the I'll wait CK ad.

    Personally, I think if I saw Josie Borain in 1985, the last thing I'd be saying is "I'll wait" haha.

    Good question about Michael MacDonald writing the lyrics for "I'll Wait"....
    Someone more knowlegable than I will surely chime in here....

    ... just about...


    NOW!


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  9. #9
    Sinner's Swing! Heisenberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emerald Eyes View Post
    The model who supposedly inspired the song was Josie Borain, but a quick Google search shows that she was the CK Underwear model in 1985, which would be a bit of a time warp. Also, didn't Michael MacDonald write the lyrics for "I'll Wait"?
    Quote Originally Posted by mrchristopher View Post
    Personally, I think if I saw Josie Borain in 1985, the last thing I'd be saying is "I'll wait" haha.

    Good question about Michael MacDonald writing the lyrics for "I'll Wait".
    Yowza !!! She is indeed quite stunning.

    I had no idea who the actual model was, but it is easy to see why she inspired the lyrics.

    Maybe DLR saw the CK advert pictures before they were published in '85. Who knows.

    I sort of had a hunch that the song titled " Anytime, Anywhere, Anyplace ", ( the song title that was listed in the WB studio report document that is on the internet, and EVH mentioned this song title in an 1983 Guitar Magazine interview ), might have possibly been the same song that turned into " I'll Wait ". You can sort of picture the words matching the chorus. Pure speculation on my part.

    Micheal McDonald was recently asked about his involvement in the song.

    http://ultimateclassicrock.com/micha...alen-ill-wait/


    MICHAEL MCDONALD ON WRITING ‘I’LL WAIT’ WITH DAVID LEE ROTH: ‘AN INTERESTING EXPERIENCE’ Jeff Giles

    Between his string of hits with the Doobie Brothers and his solo career, five-time Grammy winner Michael McDonald seemed to be everywhere in the early-’80s, but the songsthat featured his distinctive voice only told part of the story — he was also a busy songwriter whose list of credits included a surprising collaboration with Van Halen.

    McDonald found himself called into service during the sessions for Van Halen’s ‘1984‘ album, when the group got stuck on the track that ended up serving as the record’s second single, ‘I’ll Wait.’ Producer Ted Templeman worked extensively with McDonald during his tenure with the Doobie Brothers, and the duo continued their working relationship after the band splintered, with Templeman producing McDonald’s 1982 solo debut ‘If That’s What It Takes’ and serving as a co-producer on the follow-up, 1985′s ‘No Lookin’ Back.’ When he heard Van Halen needed help finishing ‘I’ll Wait,’ he knew who to call.

    “Ted Templeman called me up and said, ‘Hey, these guys have a track and they need some lyrics, so I mentioned you could do it and they said fine, so why don’t you come down?’” recalled McDonald during a recent conversation with Ultimate Classic Rock. “He sent me the track, and I got some ideas going so I’d have something when I got to the studio.”

    Although he swears the experience “wasn’t exciting,” it’s still fun to imagine McDonald meeting up with David Lee Roth for the writing session that ultimately got ‘I’ll Wait’ into shape. “I met David Lee Roth at Ted’s office. That was, uh, an interesting experience,” chuckled McDonald. “He kinda liked what I had going, so we sat there in the office with the demo playing on a cassette recorder, singing lines and melodies.”

    As Van Halen fans know, the songwriting credits for the ’1984′ album were in a state of flux for years, with McDonald’s name appearing on some versions of the album while remaining absent from others. When the album was remastered years later, McDonald was again listed as a co-writer for ‘I’ll Wait,’ and the disappearing act didn’t escape his attention. “I guess they thought I was Santa Claus, because I had to go chasing them a little bit on that one,” he laughed. “It’s probably one of the most-played things I’ve ever written, just because it’s Van Halen. That album sold three or four million copies right away, which was a really big deal at the time.”


    Here is an another older article.

    http://www.huffpost.com/us/entry/698583

    MR: You are also the co-writer of Van Halen's"I'll Wait." Is there a story behind that?

    MM: Not really other than it involved Ted Templeman who put me together with David Lee Roth. The track was cut and they were kind of stymied on the lyric on this one, so Ted had recommended that they work with me. I got together with David in Ted's office, and I had put some ideas down. David had sent me the track and so I went over them with him and he seemed to like them. He may have made some changes at that point, I'm not sure.

    Van Halen went and cut the song, and it's probably one of the more lucrative things I have ever done in my entire career because, as the Doobies, we did great with records. But Van Halen was the inception of mega-platinum record sales. We were platinum-selling artists, but to us, that was a huge deal to go platinum. Then these young bands came along and went quadruple-platinum which was unheard of at that point.
    Last edited by Heisenberg; 04.02.14 at 05:40 PM.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
    Yowza !!! She is indeed quite stunning.

    I had no idea who the actual model was, but it is easy to see why she inspired the lyrics.

    Maybe DLR saw the CK advert pictures before they were published in '85. Who knows.

    I sort of had a hunch that the song titled " Anytime, Anywhere, Anyplace ", ( the song title that was listed in the WB studio report document that is on the internet, and EVH mentioned this song title in an 1983 Guitar Magazine interview ), might have possibly been the same song that turned into " I'll Wait ". You can sort of picture the words matching the chorus. Pure speculation on my part.

    Micheal McDonald was recently asked about his involvement in the song.

    http://ultimateclassicrock.com/micha...alen-ill-wait/


    MICHAEL MCDONALD ON WRITING ‘I’LL WAIT’ WITH DAVID LEE ROTH: ‘AN INTERESTING EXPERIENCE’ Jeff Giles

    Between his string of hits with the Doobie Brothers and his solo career, five-time Grammy winner Michael McDonald seemed to be everywhere in the early-’80s, but the songsthat featured his distinctive voice only told part of the story — he was also a busy songwriter whose list of credits included a surprising collaboration with Van Halen.

    McDonald found himself called into service during the sessions for Van Halen’s ‘1984‘ album, when the group got stuck on the track that ended up serving as the record’s second single, ‘I’ll Wait.’ Producer Ted Templeman worked extensively with McDonald during his tenure with the Doobie Brothers, and the duo continued their working relationship after the band splintered, with Templeman producing McDonald’s 1982 solo debut ‘If That’s What It Takes’ and serving as a co-producer on the follow-up, 1985′s ‘No Lookin’ Back.’ When he heard Van Halen needed help finishing ‘I’ll Wait,’ he knew who to call.

    “Ted Templeman called me up and said, ‘Hey, these guys have a track and they need some lyrics, so I mentioned you could do it and they said fine, so why don’t you come down?’” recalled McDonald during a recent conversation with Ultimate Classic Rock. “He sent me the track, and I got some ideas going so I’d have something when I got to the studio.”

    Although he swears the experience “wasn’t exciting,” it’s still fun to imagine McDonald meeting up with David Lee Roth for the writing session that ultimately got ‘I’ll Wait’ into shape. “I met David Lee Roth at Ted’s office. That was, uh, an interesting experience,” chuckled McDonald. “He kinda liked what I had going, so we sat there in the office with the demo playing on a cassette recorder, singing lines and melodies.”

    As Van Halen fans know, the songwriting credits for the ’1984′ album were in a state of flux for years, with McDonald’s name appearing on some versions of the album while remaining absent from others. When the album was remastered years later, McDonald was again listed as a co-writer for ‘I’ll Wait,’ and the disappearing act didn’t escape his attention. “I guess they thought I was Santa Claus, because I had to go chasing them a little bit on that one,” he laughed. “It’s probably one of the most-played things I’ve ever written, just because it’s Van Halen. That album sold three or four million copies right away, which was a really big deal at the time.”


    Here is an another older article.

    http://www.huffpost.com/us/entry/698583

    MR: You are also the co-writer of Van Halen's"I'll Wait." Is there a story behind that?

    MM: Not really other than it involved Ted Templeman who put me together with David Lee Roth. The track was cut and they were kind of stymied on the lyric on this one, so Ted had recommended that they work with me. I got together with David in Ted's office, and I had put some ideas down. David had sent me the track and so I went over them with him and he seemed to like them. He may have made some changes at that point, I'm not sure.

    Van Halen went and cut the song, and it's probably one of the more lucrative things I have ever done in my entire career because, as the Doobies, we did great with records. But Van Halen was the inception of mega-platinum record sales. We were platinum-selling artists, but to us, that was a huge deal to go platinum. Then these young bands came along and went quadruple-platinum which was unheard of at that point.


    Fanfreatkin fantastic.

    Cheers for the big help there Heisenberg... There is quite a lot of info in there I didn't know.

    Thanks for taking the time to post it.

    Hmmmm... Anytime, Anywhere, Anyplace haha


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  11. #11
    Sinner's Swing! Heisenberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrchristopher View Post
    Hmmmm... Anytime, Anywhere, Anyplace
    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
    I sort of had a hunch that the song titled " Anytime, Anywhere, Anyplace ", ( the song title that was listed in the WB studio report document that is on the internet, and EVH mentioned this song title in an 1983 Guitar Magazine interview ), might have possibly been the same song that turned into " I'll Wait ". You can sort of picture the words matching the chorus. Pure speculation on my part.
    Whoops - I was completly wrong thinking it might of been the same tune. It said right there in the interview that he didn't yet know what the title of the other keyboard tune would be at the time in '83, ( referring to" I'll Wait " ).

    Anyhow, I thought of another one.

    In 1982 DLR said some of the lyrics for " Secrets " were somewhat inspired by a greeting card.
    " On a scale that ranges from deep dark depression to rip roaring fun ... most people idle between pissed off ...and not too pissed off " DLR 1997

    " I am the danger ... I am the one who knocks " Walter White 2011

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post

    It said right there in the interview that he didn't yet know what the title of the other keyboard tune would be at the time in '83, ( referring to" I'll Wait " ).
    You know, I think I remember seeing this interview back in the day.

    That line sounds so familiar.




    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
    I thought of another one.

    In 1982 DLR said some of the lyrics for " Secrets " were somewhat inspired by a greeting card.

    haha... I'm not sure that's going to be as easy to track down.

    Is there a greeting card quotes site ???

    I might look.


    Cheers again!


    mrC
    Last edited by mrchristopher; 04.03.14 at 09:34 AM.
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  13. #13
    Sinner's Swing! Heisenberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrchristopher View Post
    You know, I think I remember seeing this interview back in the day.

    That line sounds so familiar.

    haha... I'm not sure that's going to be as easy to track down.

    Is there a greeting card quotes site ???

    I might look.

    Cheers again!

    mrC
    I know exactly where it is from. CREEM magazine July 1982. He discusses all the songs from Diver Down. I'll find and post the links later or tommorrow.

    Here is a quick easy to find link to read the EVH 1983 interview.

    http://www.themightyvanhalen.net/198...-steven-rosen/
    Last edited by Heisenberg; 04.03.14 at 10:09 AM.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
    I know exactly where it is from. CREEM magazine July 1982. He discusses all the songs from Diver Down. I'll find and post the links later or tommorrow.

    Here is a quick easy to find link to read the EVH 1983 interview.

    http://www.themightyvanhalen.net/198...-steven-rosen/


    CREEM magazine July 1982, that's it.

    That is the summer I learned to play the guitar. Seems like yesterday... well, a lot of yesterdays. haha.

    Cheers for the links, Heisenberg! Time to get reading.

    -mrC
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
    I know exactly where it is from. CREEM magazine July 1982. He discusses all the songs from Diver Down. I'll find and post the links later or tommorrow.

    Here is a quick easy to find link to read the EVH 1983 interview.

    http://www.themightyvanhalen.net/198...-steven-rosen/
    Cool interview. Never heard of the song “Anytime, Anyplace” for the 1984 album before...
    Any musicians near Boston / Cape Cod want to get together and play some VH? I play drums, guitar, keyboard, bass, and I sing. I want to start a VH tribute band. Contact me if interested.

 

 

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