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  1. #1
    Atomic Punk
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    Default What is your fair share of what someone else has earned?"

    What is your fair share of what someone else has earned?"




    One of the consequences of such notions as entitlements is that people who have contributed nothing to society feel that society owes them something, apparently just for being nice enough to grace us with their presence.
    ― Thomas Sowell
    "Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack. -- Gen. George S. Patton

  2. #2
    ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ ○ Number 47's Avatar
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    I don't understand the concept... which I guess is good.

  3. #3
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
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    It's a silly rhetorical question. I expect better from Sowell.

  4. #4
    Atomic Punk Dave's Dreidel's Avatar
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    I did a tax projection for a gentleman last week, and between the 39.6% federal bracket, 2.9% medicare tax, 5.75 Virginia tax, and phaseouts of his exemptions and deductions, his top effective rate is over 50%. (Notice I said effective rate for all the junior CPA's in here.)

    No one in my opinion should pay more than half their income in taxes, no matter how much they make.
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  5. #5
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave's Dreidel View Post
    I did a tax projection for a gentleman last week, and between the 39.6% federal bracket, 2.9% medicare tax, 5.75 Virginia tax, and phaseouts of his exemptions and deductions, his top effective rate is over 50%. (Notice I said effective rate for all the junior CPA's in here.)

    No one in my opinion should pay more than half their income in taxes, no matter how much they make.
    And this is likely not including sales taxes, property taxes, etc.

    The sad thing is americans have been under taxed for this entire generation and taxes are going nowhere but up.

  6. #6
    Good Enough pickslide's Avatar
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    12.14.17 @ 01:09 PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave's Dreidel View Post
    I did a tax projection for a gentleman last week, and between the 39.6% federal bracket, 2.9% medicare tax, 5.75 Virginia tax, and phaseouts of his exemptions and deductions, his top effective rate is over 50%. (Notice I said effective rate for all the junior CPA's in here.)

    No one in my opinion should pay more than half their income in taxes, no matter how much they make.
    This is just an arbitrary number, but I personally can't see why anyone, no matter how much they make, should pay more than a third of his income in taxes. I also think everyone except those under the poverty line should pay the same rate.

    And really I don't believe in income tax at all. A national retail sales tax would be a much better idea. Tax consumption and use, not earnings.

    That being said, the question, as phrased here, is somewhere silly. What percentage of your income am I, personally, entitled to? None. But if we are going to live in a civil society with a government, we have to fund an army, a government, a court system and, let's face it, all the other good and bad things the government does. Couching it as a direct transfer from me to you is just a loaded question, a way to get people fired up about welfare queens and whatnot, and it ignores a whole host of other ill-advised shit the government throws away money on.

    TK

  7. #7
    Hang 'Em High sickman's Avatar
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    12.15.17 @ 03:21 AM
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    Quote Originally Posted by It's Mike View Post
    And this is likely not including sales taxes, property taxes, etc.

    The sad thing is americans have been under taxed for this entire generation and taxes are going nowhere but up.
    Spoken like a true liberal, Under-taxed my ass. Just because Canadians are used to taking it in the ass doesn't mean that Americans have to. Our company employs 5 people with a weekly payroll of around $6000 and with a new unemployment tax our total tax payout is over $3000. The problem isn't that we should get used to paying more taxes, the government needs to stop bleeding us dry.

  8. #8
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sickman View Post
    Spoken like a true liberal, Under-taxed my ass. Just because Canadians are used to taking it in the ass doesn't mean that Americans have to. Our company employs 5 people with a weekly payroll of around $6000 and with a new unemployment tax our total tax payout is over $3000. The problem isn't that we should get used to paying more taxes, the government needs to stop bleeding us dry.
    Spoken like someone who can read a financial statement

  9. #9
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
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    People should pay the amount needed to run a proper govt - not a penny more or less. To pick a % out of mid air is silly. Depending on how society is set up the number can be 8% or 80%.

  10. #10
    Good Enough pickslide's Avatar
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    12.14.17 @ 01:09 PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by It's Mike View Post
    People should pay the amount needed to run a proper govt - not a penny more or less. To pick a % out of mid air is silly. Depending on how society is set up the number can be 8% or 80%.
    The loaded term here is "proper." Can't speak for Canada, but right now our government is financially and constitutionally out of bounds. I am not willing, and would never vote for the privelege of paying one cent more to a government that continually invades my privacy, wages almost constant ill-advised war, can't even come close to balancing its budget, provides military welfare to countries perfectly capable of defending themselves, and is already taxing my unborn grandchildren to bail out large companies and kill wedding attendees in the Middle East with robots.

    Proper, indeed. If it were anywhere close to proper, perhaps I wouldn't mind so much. That being said, an even percentage is inherently fair, since a richer person would pay much, much more than a poor person. Get rid of the labrynthian, cynical, incomprehensible system of credits and deductions in which the "rates" are essentially meaningless anyway.

    TK

  11. #11
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pickslide View Post
    The loaded term here is "proper." Can't speak for Canada, but right now our government is financially and constitutionally out of bounds. I am not willing, and would never vote for the privelege of paying one cent more to a government that continually invades my privacy, wages almost constant ill-advised war, can't even come close to balancing its budget, provides military welfare to countries perfectly capable of defending themselves, and is already taxing my unborn grandchildren to bail out large companies and kill wedding attendees in the Middle East with robots.

    Proper, indeed. If it were anywhere close to proper, perhaps I wouldn't mind so much. That being said, an even percentage is inherently fair, since a richer person would pay much, much more than a poor person. Get rid of the labrynthian, cynical, incomprehensible system of credits and deductions in which the "rates" are essentially meaningless anyway.

    TK
    Can't disagree with much of this

  12. #12
    Good Enough Rocket's Avatar
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    12.13.17 @ 08:48 AM
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    Default

    It's just too complicated - for what may look like lower income taxes get trumped up somewhere else.

    I'm all for a simple flat tax. I think if everyone paid 20% on consumption or income it would cover all costs including healthcare and military.

    The current deductions can be outrageous and the more affluent folks can afford the best CPAs and play the loopholes much better. It's all legal, but it's why the super wealthy can pay an effective rate of 10-13% and the working stiff making 50K is paying 40%+ of his/her salary.

    Don't even start on trusts (irrevocable and revocable) and the estate tax benefits that generally only the wealthy participate, while working stiff loses 50% to probate.

    Education and wealth is key when living/working in the USA. And a really good CPA, and Estate Planner.

  13. #13
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocket View Post
    It's just too complicated - for what may look like lower income taxes get trumped up somewhere else.

    I'm all for a simple flat tax. I think if everyone paid 20% on consumption or income it would cover all costs including healthcare and military.

    The current deductions can be outrageous and the more affluent folks can afford the best CPAs and play the loopholes much better. It's all legal, but it's why the super wealthy can pay an effective rate of 10-13% and the working stiff making 50K is paying 40%+ of his/her salary.

    Don't even start on trusts (irrevocable and revocable) and the estate tax benefits that generally only the wealthy participate, while working stiff loses 50% to probate.

    Education and wealth is key when living/working in the USA. And a really good CPA, and Estate Planner.
    posted tax rates mean nothing. This is the unforunate thing. So people can say "we pay 50% income tax" (sometimes their marginal tax rate) sure you can say that, except that almost no one really does pay that.

    Canadians, who have higher tax rates than Americans, don't pay 50%. Between my wife and I, we make somewhere between 180 and 200 K a year and we don't pay 25% in income taxes, never mind 50%. And we don't have an accountant doing our taxes, we have an idiot VH fan who uses 20 dollar tax software. Are we overtaxed? No, we're not. Not when you consider the fact that we have 3 children who'll spend 15+ years in school, not when you consider we spent that much time in school ourselves, not when you consider that our health care is paid for, not when you consider a million other things we don't directly pay for. And we're not unusual in what we pay. We're fairly taxed. We provide the govt enough money to provide what they should and have a bit more to set on fire.


    Whenever i hear about govt waste i almost never think of my own pocketbook. I get fair value for my money. I think of all the people that they should have helped with that money. That's what pisses me off. Don't cut my taxes just make sure that the person with some terrible disease is taken care of, make sure the military vet has every support he needs, etc.
    Last edited by It's Mike; 01.02.14 at 01:24 PM.

  14. #14
    Atomic Punk CaboChris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by It's Mike View Post
    I think of all the people that they should have helped with that money. That's what pisses me off. Don't cut my taxes just make sure that the person with some terrible disease is taken care of, make sure the military vet has every support he needs, etc.
    Yep

    Here come the "fuck those freeloading, leeches, personal responsibility...personal responsibility...personal responsibility contingent" in three...two...one..

  15. #15
    Good Enough pickslide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by It's Mike View Post
    posted tax rates mean nothing. This is the unforunate thing. So people can say "we pay 50% income tax" (sometimes their marginal tax rate) sure you can say that, except that almost no one really does pay that.

    Canadians, who have higher tax rates than Americans, don't pay 50%. Between my wife and I, we make somewhere between 180 and 200 K a year and we don't pay 25% in income taxes, never mind 50%. And we don't have an accountant doing our taxes, we have an idiot VH fan who uses 20 dollar tax software. Are we overtaxed? No, we're not. Not when you consider the fact that we have 3 children who'll spend 15+ years in school, not when you consider we spent that much time in school ourselves, not when you consider that our health care is paid for, not when you consider a million other things we don't directly pay for. And we're not unusual in what we pay. We're fairly taxed. We provide the govt enough money to provide what they should and have a bit more to set on fire.


    Whenever i hear about govt waste i almost never think of my own pocketbook. I get fair value for my money. I think of all the people that they should have helped with that money. That's what pisses me off. Don't cut my taxes just make sure that the person with some terrible disease is taken care of, make sure the military vet has every support he needs, etc.
    I use H&R Block to file taxes, and at the end I always ask my rep to calculate my effective rate. We never pay 25% and sometimes pay lower than 10%. Last year, it was about 11%, I think. Despite what the pundits say, most middle class people pay less than 20% because they can take the "standard deduction," which reduces your taxable income. There are other deductions as well if you have children and certain expenses.

    I take every possible deduction, because I fully intend to pay the smallest legal amount. But I am opposed to deductions and credits (and vote accordingly) because I don't think people should have a different tax burden based on personal life choices. In a sense, the government is subsidizing my decision to have children, to buy a house, etc., which is not really the proper role of government. But until Americans stop voting to retain it, this is the mess we are going to have.

    TK

 

 

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