Follow us on...
Follow us on Twitter Follow us on Facebook Watch us on YouTube
Register
Results 1 to 12 of 12
  1. #1
    Atomic Punk bklynboy68's Avatar
    Join Date
    01.10.12
    Posts
    18,847
    Favorite VH Album

    The Magnificent 7
    Last Online

    12.16.17 @ 02:41 PM
    Likes
    12,936
    Liked 11,785 Times in 6,531 Posts


    Premium Member

    Default Murder charges recommended for Minnesota man accused of Nazi crimes

    BERLIN – A retired Minnesota carpenter, shown in a June investigation to be a former commander in a Nazi SS-led unit, ordered his men to attack a Polish village that was razed to the ground, according to testimony newly uncovered by The Associated Press. The account of the massacre that killed dozens of women and children contradicts statements by the man's family that he was never at the scene of the 1944 bloodshed.

    The June story prompted official investigations in both Poland and Germany. On Monday, the prosecutor leading Germany's probe revealed to the AP that he has decided to recommend that state prosecutors pursue murder charges against 94-year-old Michael Karkoc.

    Thomas Will, the deputy head of the special prosecutors' office that investigates Nazi crimes, said he had made his decision even before seeing the new testimony that Karkoc ordered his unit to attack the Polish village of Chlaniow. "We have determined the requirements for murder charges are there," said Will.

    FULL STORY

    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/11...d-nazi-crimes/
     "He has a swaggering retro machismo that will give hives to the Steinem cabal" -Camille Paglia on Donald Trump

    "Make way for the bad guy"- Tony Montana

    'This hamburger don't need no helper"- David Lee Roth

    "I wish Bon Jovi would've given me a call before he recorded all of his hits, because the lyrics would've been smarter, the melodies would've been much more smashing, and they would've sold a lot fewer records." -David Lee Roth

    "My beef is people thinking Bon Jovi is good cuz they sold lots of records to housewives." -tango

    "But being number one doesn’t really mean jack fuck all. We sold twice as many records as other records that year (1984) that landed in the Number One position." ~Eddie Van Halen

  2. #2
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    03.26.06
    Age
    43
    Location
    Vaughan, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    34,157
    Favorite VH Album

    like them all, no favourite
    Last Online

    12.16.17 @ 08:01 PM
    Likes
    1,321
    Liked 6,708 Times in 3,727 Posts

    Default

    not sure what the purpose is of charging a 94 year old man with "crimes" committed during a war that happened 70 years ago. A crime with few, if any, witnesses to cross examine and with an accussed who at that age is unlikely to have a firm recollection of the events that happened that day.

  3. #3
    Atomic Punk
    Join Date
    11.10.10
    Location
    North Wales, United Kingdom
    Posts
    10,172
    Favorite VH Album

    Love 'em all! (esp. F.U.C.K)
    Favorite VH Song

    The Dream Is Over
    Last Online

    12.04.17 @ 04:15 PM
    Likes
    1,571
    Liked 1,228 Times in 845 Posts

    Default

    I DO see your point, Mike. However, firstly, the prosecutors have said, ""We have determined the requirements for murder charges are there," so this suggests that they feel that there is a case to answer. These sorts of things cost a small fortune to pursue, so it would make no sense to waste resources, unless the authorities felt it was worthwhile.

    There is also the second - but perhaps more important - issue of 'closure' for those remaining relatives, and indeed for society in general. Does it really matter how many years ago a crime took place, if there are still people suffering as a result of it? If, and that's a big 'if' it is proven that this man is guilty of these atrocities, then he is STILL guilty of them 60 years later, and, as such, should be punished - if only for those relatives to feel vindicated in some small way.
    I'm FEMALE...Deal with it!

    "Whatever you do, wherever you go, there you are..." Edward Van Halen 1986

    "You spend the first part of your life trying to make your mark, and the second part just trying to cover up your tracks"... Weesfreewheelin, 2012

    "Life's too short to stuff a mushroom"... Shirley Conran, 1975

    "You turn if you want to...The LADY is NOT for turning!"...Margaret
    Thatcher, 1980


  4. #4
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    03.26.06
    Age
    43
    Location
    Vaughan, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    34,157
    Favorite VH Album

    like them all, no favourite
    Last Online

    12.16.17 @ 08:01 PM
    Likes
    1,321
    Liked 6,708 Times in 3,727 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dibblekins View Post
    I DO see your point, Mike. However, firstly, the prosecutors have said, ""We have determined the requirements for murder charges are there," so this suggests that they feel that there is a case to answer. These sorts of things cost a small fortune to pursue, so it would make no sense to waste resources, unless the authorities felt it was worthwhile.

    There is also the second - but perhaps more important - issue of 'closure' for those remaining relatives, and indeed for society in general. Does it really matter how many years ago a crime took place, if there are still people suffering as a result of it? If, and that's a big 'if' it is proven that this man is guilty of these atrocities, then he is STILL guilty of them 60 years later, and, as such, should be punished - if only for those relatives to feel vindicated in some small way.
    you honestly think prosecuting this man provides closure? To who? Everyone in that village according to the story were killed? Govts might be better served using the money they'll need to prosecute a man who won't likely live to see a conviction and spend it on their actual citizens.

    And if they're going to start charging every soldier who committed a crime during WW2 then we're going to need to build a whole bunch of new courtrooms. Ask anyone who lived in Europe during that time and ask the kids of people who did and they'll have horror stories from both sides.
    Last edited by It's Mike; 11.18.13 at 10:49 AM.

  5. #5
    Atomic Punk
    Join Date
    11.10.10
    Location
    North Wales, United Kingdom
    Posts
    10,172
    Favorite VH Album

    Love 'em all! (esp. F.U.C.K)
    Favorite VH Song

    The Dream Is Over
    Last Online

    12.04.17 @ 04:15 PM
    Likes
    1,571
    Liked 1,228 Times in 845 Posts

    Default

    Mike, I do have relatives (Austrian Jews) that were personally affected by atrocities in WWII, and I can tell you that, yes, it does provide closure to see a person tried, and if appropriate, found guilty of the crimes of which he or she is accused.

    I just don't feel that I have the right to say to a person affected by a heinous crime - whether that be as a result of war atrocities, or murder within civilian society, that no, you don't have the right to see somebody brought to justice for your loss, because it happened to be, say, 20, 30, 40, or more years ago. How can I, as someone who has no experience of such a personal loss, say to a relative, "Get over it. It's been 60 years."

    In all honesty, I don't believe that there is a statute of limitations on murder, or its like. IF that man is proven guilty, it wouldn't matter to me if he served only 6 months - or no time at all - in prison for his misdoings. The simple fact that a person responsible for a horrible act has finally been forced to face up to his (her) guilt, and the horrendous consequences of his actions, would be a form of justice in itself. That is often enough by way of 'closure' for a great many people - and, as a civil society, we have a duty and responsibility to provide that, where possible.
    I'm FEMALE...Deal with it!

    "Whatever you do, wherever you go, there you are..." Edward Van Halen 1986

    "You spend the first part of your life trying to make your mark, and the second part just trying to cover up your tracks"... Weesfreewheelin, 2012

    "Life's too short to stuff a mushroom"... Shirley Conran, 1975

    "You turn if you want to...The LADY is NOT for turning!"...Margaret
    Thatcher, 1980


  6. #6
    Atomic Punk
    Join Date
    11.10.10
    Location
    North Wales, United Kingdom
    Posts
    10,172
    Favorite VH Album

    Love 'em all! (esp. F.U.C.K)
    Favorite VH Song

    The Dream Is Over
    Last Online

    12.04.17 @ 04:15 PM
    Likes
    1,571
    Liked 1,228 Times in 845 Posts

    Default

    Of course, your comments also raise the issue of where we draw the line on prosecuting somebody for a crime, in terms of time lapsed...Five years? Ten? The reason that such a cut-off point isn't legally enforceable is because it is so arbitrary; can we really say that someone 'ceases' to be guilty once the time between criminal act and prosecution hits 10 years? What happens if you go a few days over? The guilty party gets off scot-free, and the victim just has to shrug it off, as being 'one of those things'..?

    As I say, it's all too easy for us to suggest that we could let such a thing go...And maybe those with strong religious faith CAN do that...I just don't think I could - and I wouldn't expect others to do so either.
    I'm FEMALE...Deal with it!

    "Whatever you do, wherever you go, there you are..." Edward Van Halen 1986

    "You spend the first part of your life trying to make your mark, and the second part just trying to cover up your tracks"... Weesfreewheelin, 2012

    "Life's too short to stuff a mushroom"... Shirley Conran, 1975

    "You turn if you want to...The LADY is NOT for turning!"...Margaret
    Thatcher, 1980


  7. #7
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    03.26.06
    Age
    43
    Location
    Vaughan, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    34,157
    Favorite VH Album

    like them all, no favourite
    Last Online

    12.16.17 @ 08:01 PM
    Likes
    1,321
    Liked 6,708 Times in 3,727 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dibblekins View Post
    Mike, I do have relatives (Austrian Jews) that were personally affected by atrocities in WWII, and I can tell you that, yes, it does provide closure to see a person tried, and if appropriate, found guilty of the crimes of which he or she is accused.

    I just don't feel that I have the right to say to a person affected by a heinous crime - whether that be as a result of war atrocities, or murder within civilian society, that no, you don't have the right to see somebody brought to justice for your loss, because it happened to be, say, 20, 30, 40, or more years ago. How can I, as someone who has no experience of such a personal loss, say to a relative, "Get over it. It's been 60 years."

    In all honesty, I don't believe that there is a statute of limitations on murder, or its like. IF that man is proven guilty, it wouldn't matter to me if he served only 6 months - or no time at all - in prison for his misdoings. The simple fact that a person responsible for a horrible act has finally been forced to face up to his (her) guilt, and the horrendous consequences of his actions, would be a form of justice in itself. That is often enough by way of 'closure' for a great many people - and, as a civil society, we have a duty and responsibility to provide that, where possible.
    i wasn't referring to people in general, i was referencing the people with family in the particular village he was accused of setting ablaze. Sadly things like this are not unusual during wartimes. Most of us have family that were directly impacted (in one war or another) by WW2.

  8. #8
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    03.26.06
    Age
    43
    Location
    Vaughan, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    34,157
    Favorite VH Album

    like them all, no favourite
    Last Online

    12.16.17 @ 08:01 PM
    Likes
    1,321
    Liked 6,708 Times in 3,727 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dibblekins View Post
    Of course, your comments also raise the issue of where we draw the line on prosecuting somebody for a crime, in terms of time lapsed...Five years? Ten? The reason that such a cut-off point isn't legally enforceable is because it is so arbitrary; can we really say that someone 'ceases' to be guilty once the time between criminal act and prosecution hits 10 years? What happens if you go a few days over? The guilty party gets off scot-free, and the victim just has to shrug it off, as being 'one of those things'..?

    As I say, it's all too easy for us to suggest that we could let such a thing go...And maybe those with strong religious faith CAN do that...I just don't think I could - and I wouldn't expect others to do so either.

    i think the line is set at when someone is incapable of defending himself. The man is 94 years old, what are the odds that he has a memory of the events of that day? what are the odds his representatives are able to cross examine those who made note the events of that day? The man has a right to a fair trial and I can't imagine that would be the case 70 years after the event took place. If he has a firm memory of that time and all of those who's words will be used against him can be cross examined then fine. But I doubt this is the case.

    My great grandmother died when she was 94, she could barely remember what day it was at that point in your life never mind the particulars of events that happened 70 years earlier.

  9. #9
    Atomic Punk
    Join Date
    11.10.10
    Location
    North Wales, United Kingdom
    Posts
    10,172
    Favorite VH Album

    Love 'em all! (esp. F.U.C.K)
    Favorite VH Song

    The Dream Is Over
    Last Online

    12.04.17 @ 04:15 PM
    Likes
    1,571
    Liked 1,228 Times in 845 Posts

    Default

    As with all prosecutions though, his mental state will be assessed to see whether he is fit to stand trial, before it goes ahead. That goes without saying - take your Granny, for example, she wouldn't have been seen as capable of making a defence, and hence it is highly unlikely she would have been tried. On the other hand, my Gran, who is also 94, has a mind as sharp as a razor, and would be fair game!
    I'm FEMALE...Deal with it!

    "Whatever you do, wherever you go, there you are..." Edward Van Halen 1986

    "You spend the first part of your life trying to make your mark, and the second part just trying to cover up your tracks"... Weesfreewheelin, 2012

    "Life's too short to stuff a mushroom"... Shirley Conran, 1975

    "You turn if you want to...The LADY is NOT for turning!"...Margaret
    Thatcher, 1980


  10. #10
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    03.26.06
    Age
    43
    Location
    Vaughan, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    34,157
    Favorite VH Album

    like them all, no favourite
    Last Online

    12.16.17 @ 08:01 PM
    Likes
    1,321
    Liked 6,708 Times in 3,727 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dibblekins View Post
    As with all prosecutions though, his mental state will be assessed to see whether he is fit to stand trial, before it goes ahead. That goes without saying - take your Granny, for example, she wouldn't have been seen as capable of making a defence, and hence it is highly unlikely she would have been tried. On the other hand, my Gran, who is also 94, has a mind as sharp as a razor, and would be fair game!
    and this is my issue here. I reckon no such assessment has been made. Instead they'll throw this man's name out there knowing he's unlikely to ever get to defend his name.

    As for your question of how long is too long specifically, I think 2013 is too far away from WW2 to honestly expect any more criminal cases.

  11. #11
    Atomic Punk
    Join Date
    11.10.10
    Location
    North Wales, United Kingdom
    Posts
    10,172
    Favorite VH Album

    Love 'em all! (esp. F.U.C.K)
    Favorite VH Song

    The Dream Is Over
    Last Online

    12.04.17 @ 04:15 PM
    Likes
    1,571
    Liked 1,228 Times in 845 Posts

    Default

    Human rights legislation will prevent him standing trial if medics deem him unfit mentally or physically. Even an (alleged) war-criminal is entitled to human rights (unlike his / her alleged victims).

    As to time-frame, we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this, Mike (what's new there, then?!) Whilst evidence from WWII (or other past events) is still being brought to light, and there are still people alive to stand trial, their facing up to their actions in a criminal trial should remain a viable possibility - in my opinion!
    I'm FEMALE...Deal with it!

    "Whatever you do, wherever you go, there you are..." Edward Van Halen 1986

    "You spend the first part of your life trying to make your mark, and the second part just trying to cover up your tracks"... Weesfreewheelin, 2012

    "Life's too short to stuff a mushroom"... Shirley Conran, 1975

    "You turn if you want to...The LADY is NOT for turning!"...Margaret
    Thatcher, 1980


  12. #12
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    03.26.06
    Age
    43
    Location
    Vaughan, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    34,157
    Favorite VH Album

    like them all, no favourite
    Last Online

    12.16.17 @ 08:01 PM
    Likes
    1,321
    Liked 6,708 Times in 3,727 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dibblekins View Post
    As to time-frame, we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this, Mike

 

 

Similar Threads

  1. Recommended Rock 'n Roll Reading
    By billy007 in forum VH Fans Meeting Place (Music Only)
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 06.23.15, 07:06 PM
  2. Canadian Army Colonel pleads guilty to murder, rape, other charges
    By It's Mike in forum VH Fans Meeting Place (Non-Music)
    Replies: 41
    Last Post: 10.25.10, 10:51 AM
  3. Murder Charges Filed In Kansas Teen Death
    By omarbratley in forum VH Fans Meeting Place (Non-Music)
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 06.08.07, 09:14 PM
  4. Recommended/Denounced Boxed Sets...
    By chefcraig in forum VH Fans Meeting Place (Music Only)
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 12.25.06, 11:56 AM
  5. Charges Recommended in Guns N' Roses Riot
    By SgtSchultz in forum VH Fans Meeting Place (Music Only)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02.19.03, 08:44 AM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •