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  1. #1
    Atomic Punk bklynboy68's Avatar
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    Default States Move To Tax Miles

    A black box in your car? Some see a source of tax revenue - latimes.com

    WASHINGTON — As America's road planners struggle to find the cash to mend a crumbling highway system, many are beginning to see a solution in a little black box that fits neatly by the dashboard of your car.

    The devices, which track every mile a motorist drives and transmit that information to bureaucrats, are at the center of a controversial attempt in Washington and state planning offices to overhaul the outdated system for funding America's major roads.

    The usually dull arena of highway planning has suddenly spawned intense debate and colorful alliances. Libertarians have joined environmental groups in lobbying to allow government to use the little boxes to keep track of the miles you drive, and possibly where you drive them — then use the information to draw up a tax bill.


    The tea party is aghast. The American Civil Liberties Union is deeply concerned, too, raising a variety of privacy issues.

    And while Congress can't agree on whether to proceed, several states are not waiting. They are exploring how, over the next decade, they can move to a system in which drivers pay per mile of road they roll over. Thousands of motorists have already taken the black boxes, some of which have GPS monitoring, for a test drive.

    "This really is a must for our nation. It is not a matter of something we might choose to do," said Hasan Ikhrata, executive director of the Southern California Assn. of Governments, which is planning for the state to start tracking miles driven by every California motorist by 2025. "There is going to be a change in how we pay these taxes. The technology is there to do it."

    The push comes as the country's Highway Trust Fund, financed with taxes Americans pay at the gas pump, is broke. Americans don't buy as much gas as they used to. Cars get many more miles to the gallon. The federal tax itself, 18.4 cents per gallon, hasn't gone up in 20 years. Politicians are loath to raise the tax even one penny when gas prices are high.

    "The gas tax is just not sustainable," said Lee Munnich, a transportation policy expert at the University of Minnesota. His state recently put tracking devices on 500 cars to test out a pay-by-mile system. "This works out as the most logical alternative over the long term," he said.

    Wonks call it a mileage-based user fee. It is no surprise that the idea appeals to urban liberals, as the taxes could be rigged to change driving patterns in ways that could help reduce congestion and greenhouse gases, for example. California planners are looking to the system as they devise strategies to meet the goals laid out in the state's ambitious global warming laws. But Rep. Bill Shuster (R-Pa.), chairman of the House Transportation Committee, has said he, too, sees it as the most viable long-term alternative. The free marketeers at the Reason Foundation are also fond of having drivers pay per mile.

    "This is not just a tax going into a black hole," said Adrian Moore, vice president of policy at Reason. "People are paying more directly into what they are getting."

    The movement is also bolstered by two former U.S. Transportation secretaries, who in a 2011 report urged Congress to move in the pay-per-mile direction.

    The U.S. Senate approved a $90-million pilot project last year that would have involved about 10,000 cars. But the House leadership killed the proposal, acting on concerns of rural lawmakers representing constituents whose daily lives often involve logging lots of miles to get to work or into town.

    Several states and cities are nonetheless moving ahead on their own. The most eager is Oregon, which is enlisting 5,000 drivers in the country's biggest experiment. Those drivers will soon pay the mileage fees instead of gas taxes to the state. Nevada has already completed a pilot. New York City is looking into one. Illinois is trying it on a limited basis with trucks. And the I-95 Coalition, which includes 17 state transportation departments along the Eastern Seaboard (including Maryland, Pennsylvania, Virginia and Florida), is studying how they could go about implementing the change.

    The concept is not a universal hit.

    In Nevada, where about 50 volunteers' cars were equipped with the devices not long ago, drivers were uneasy about the government being able to monitor their every move.

    "Concerns about Big Brother and those sorts of things were a major problem," said Alauddin Khan, who directs strategic and performance management at the Nevada Department of Transportation. "It was not something people wanted."

    As the trial got underway, the ACLU of Nevada warned on its website: "It would be fairly easy to turn these devices into full-fledged tracking devices.... There is no need to build an enormous, unwieldy technological infrastructure that will inevitably be expanded to keep records of individuals' everyday comings and goings."

    Nevada is among several states now scrambling to find affordable technology that would allow the state to keep track of how many miles a car is being driven, but not exactly where and at what time. If you can do that, Khan said, the public gets more comfortable.

    The hunt for that technology has led some state agencies to a small California startup called True Mileage. The firm was not originally in the business of helping states tax drivers. It was seeking to break into an emerging market in auto insurance, in which drivers would pay based on their mileage. But the devices it is testing appeal to highway planners because they don't use GPS and deliver a limited amount of information, uploaded periodically by modem.

    "People will be more willing to do this if you do not track their speed and you do not track their location," said Ryan Morrison, chief executive of True Mileage. "There have been some big mistakes in some of these state pilot programs. There are a lot less expensive and less intrusive ways to do this."

    In Oregon, planners are experimenting with giving drivers different choices. They can choose a device with or without GPS. Or they can choose not to have a device at all, opting instead to pay a flat fee based on the average number of miles driven by all state residents.

    Other places are hoping to sell the concept to a wary public by having the devices do more, not less. In New York City, transportation officials are seeking to develop a taxing device that would also be equipped to pay parking meter fees, provide "pay-as-you-drive" insurance, and create a pool of real-time speed data from other drivers that motorists could use to avoid traffic.

    "Motorists would be attracted to participate … because of the value of the benefits it offers to them," says a city planning document.

    Some transportation planners, though, wonder if all the talk about paying by the mile is just a giant distraction. At the Metropolitan Transportation Commission in the San Francisco Bay Area, officials say Congress could very simply deal with the bankrupt Highway Trust Fund by raising gas taxes. An extra one-time or annual levy could be imposed on drivers of hybrids and others whose vehicles don't use much gas, so they pay their fair share.

    "There is no need for radical surgery when all you need to do is take an aspirin," said Randy Rentschler, the commission's director of legislation and public affairs. "If we do this, hundreds of millions of drivers will be concerned about their privacy and a host of other things."
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  2. #2
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
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    seems like an incredible waste of money. This is why we have gas taxes - to ensure those who use the roads are paying for the roads.

  3. #3
    Atomic Punk CaboChris's Avatar
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    What about motorcycles, cyclists, and mobility scooters?

  4. #4
    Master Bluesman Elwood P.'s Avatar
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    They'll tax motorcycles, probably, but not bikes. Those people on mobility devices are annoying as hell. I say, tax 'em.
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  5. #5
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    Abolish entitlements for one year and you'll have all the money you need for bridges and highways. Hell, then there will be jobs for those that need 'em!

  6. #6
    Atomic Punk
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    Quote Originally Posted by It's Mike View Post
    seems like an incredible waste of money. This is why we have gas taxes - to ensure those who use the roads are paying for the roads.
    Ahhh, but you see, they know their revenue from carbon fuels are going to go down (if they're not already), as a result of encouraging people to use hybrid cars, or at least vehicles that do more miles to the gallon...And, even if (as with the UK), they make the taxes on those fuels exorbitant, they're still, ultimately, going to get less money from it. So, as they're now discovering, that means less money to maintain the road network. So, what's the solution?

    Well, yes, make people pay a 'mileage tax', based upon the amount of wear and tear they cause to the roads. Seems reasonable - as long as it includes ALL of those who use the roads - and that includes bicycles, horses, disability scooters, AND pedestrians. Which means fitting everything that moves with a little black box. If you leave the house without the requisite 'mileometer', you get fined - which means MORE income for the government! It's a win-win situation!

    Seriously, though - I wouldn't have a problem with my mileage being tallied by a device fitted to my car. This could be assessed by my mechanic when he does my yearly MOT (Ministry of Transport) certificate. (I don't know if you have these in the States - it checks a vehicle is roadworthy, and passes the emissions test). However, I would have a MAJOR problem with any official bodies knowing where I've been, and at what time(s). It opens a big can of worms with regards to privacy, and I have no doubt whatsoever that the data collected would be used against me, in some form or another.
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  7. #7
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dibblekins View Post
    Ahhh, but you see, they know their revenue from carbon fuels are going to go down (if they're not already), as a result of encouraging people to use hybrid cars, or at least vehicles that do more miles to the gallon...And, even if (as with the UK), they make the taxes on those fuels exorbitant, they're still, ultimately, going to get less money from it. So, as they're now discovering, that means less money to maintain the road network. So, what's the solution?

    Well, yes, make people pay a 'mileage tax', based upon the amount of wear and tear they cause to the roads. Seems reasonable - as long as it includes ALL of those who use the roads - and that includes bicycles, horses, disability scooters, AND pedestrians. Which means fitting everything that moves with a little black box. If you leave the house without the requisite 'mileometer', you get fined - which means MORE income for the government! It's a win-win situation!

    Seriously, though - I wouldn't have a problem with my mileage being tallied by a device fitted to my car. This could be assessed by my mechanic when he does my yearly MOT (Ministry of Transport) certificate. (I don't know if you have these in the States - it checks a vehicle is roadworthy, and passes the emissions test). However, I would have a MAJOR problem with any official bodies knowing where I've been, and at what time(s). It opens a big can of worms with regards to privacy, and I have no doubt whatsoever that the data collected would be used against me, in some form or another.
    I agree with you on the 2nd part of this.

    If revenue from gas taxes are dropping (and I really question if this is the case) - one can make up for it in different ways (increased vehicle registration charges, taxes applied to car insurance, etc). There's no need to go the big brother route.


    An interesting thing (and I'm not sure if this is happening in the States or overseas) is there are insurance companies here that offer to put a black box in the cars of clients and offer discounts based on how they drive (ie they don't speed, don't hammer their breaks, etc). Govt forcing black boxes in cars just seems destined for huge controversy.

  8. #8
    Atomic Punk CaboChris's Avatar
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    Black boxes in cars tracking where we're going?

    Law enforcement is salivating as we speak.

  9. #9
    Atomic Punk
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    Quote Originally Posted by It's Mike View Post
    I agree with you on the 2nd part of this.

    If revenue from gas taxes are dropping (and I really question if this is the case) - one can make up for it in different ways (increased vehicle registration charges, taxes applied to car insurance, etc). There's no need to go the big brother route.


    An interesting thing (and I'm not sure if this is happening in the States or overseas) is there are insurance companies here that offer to put a black box in the cars of clients and offer discounts based on how they drive (ie they don't speed, don't hammer their breaks, etc). Govt forcing black boxes in cars just seems destined for huge controversy.
    We've already got all of the above over here! We haven't yet got the 'mileometer', however - although I'm sure it's only a matter of time!

    With regards to the scarcity of fossil fuels, I'm talking long-term, of course, Mike. Eventually, the fuel we're currently using is going to run out - and in the slightly-less-long-term, it's going to be increasingly difficult to obtain; as a result, it's simply not going to produce the revenue the government needs, forever more.

    However, we're still going to need to use the roads - and they're still going to need maintenance...Plus, the black box has such additional benefits to the government, in terms of it giving them carte blanche to scrutinise our every move, I'm convinced that SOMEhow they'll make it happen...

    Watch this space, is my advice!
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  10. #10
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dibblekins View Post
    We've already got all of the above over here! We haven't yet got the 'mileometer', however - although I'm sure it's only a matter of time!

    With regards to the scarcity of fossil fuels, I'm talking long-term, of course, Mike. Eventually, the fuel we're currently using is going to run out - and in the slightly-less-long-term, it's going to be increasingly difficult to obtain; as a result, it's simply not going to produce the revenue the government needs, forever more.

    However, we're still going to need to use the roads - and they're still going to need maintenance...Plus, the black box has such additional benefits to the government, in terms of it giving them carte blanche to scrutinise our every move, I'm convinced that SOMEhow they'll make it happen...

    Watch this space, is my advice!
    i live in a nation that has enough oil to sustain us for about 100 generations i'm guessing.

    But I fear this is really just big brother tactics and has nothing to do with tax collection for road contruction being tied to users.

  11. #11
    Atomic Punk
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    Quote Originally Posted by It's Mike View Post
    But I fear this is really just big brother tactics and has nothing to do with tax collection for road contruction being tied to users.
    I think you may well be right!
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  12. #12
    Atomic Punk
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    Quote Originally Posted by It's Mike View Post
    i live in a nation that has enough oil to sustain us for about 100 generations i'm guessing.

    But I fear this is really just big brother tactics and has nothing to do with tax collection for road contruction being tied to users.
    Before long people will have to pay a tax just for breathing.
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  13. #13
    Atomic Punk CaboChris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocknblues81 View Post
    Before long people will have to pay a tax just for breathing.
    I'm sure the UK has thought about it.

  14. #14
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    Why Maryland taxes the rain that falls on your property...
    WHAT IS UNDERSTOOD NEED NOT BE DISCUSSED

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaboChris View Post
    Black boxes in cars tracking where we're going?

    Law enforcement is salivating as we speak.

    I hear ya dude. That's why I always carry one douche bag and one sandwich with me at all times. On account if you get in a pinch n' all. You got a tasty treat on one end....and a got a douche bag on the other. Out.
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