Follow us on...
Follow us on Twitter Follow us on Facebook Watch us on YouTube
Register
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 27
  1. #1
    Atomic Punk bklynboy68's Avatar
    Join Date
    01.10.12
    Posts
    18,732
    Favorite VH Album

    The Magnificent 7
    Last Online

    12.11.17 @ 05:58 PM
    Likes
    12,866
    Liked 11,728 Times in 6,498 Posts


    Premium Member

    Default Canadian Speechwriter Defends Death Panels

    Contrary to what the writer will have you believe, we do have death panels in America. They were snuck into the Recovery and Reinvestment Act (Stimulus Bill). The law funds the Federal Coordinating Council for Comparative Effectiveness Research. It was created by former Health and Human Services Secretary Nominee Sen. Tom Daschle. Daschle argued that Americans ought to be more like Europeans who passively accept "hopeless diagnoses." We also have IPAB (15-member Independent Payment Advisory Board) Beginning in 2014, in any year in which the Medicare per capita growth rate exceeded a target growth rate, the IPAB would be required to recommend Medicare spending reductions. It
    Shifts payment authority from Congress to an independent commission.



    Canada Has Death Panels

    And that’s a good thing.

    By Adam Goldenberg


    Adam Goldenberg is a law student at Yale. Prior to attending law school, Adam served as chief speechwriter to the former leader of the Liberal Party of Canada, Michael Ignatieff, and as a senior aide in the Government of Ontario. He writes frequently about politics and the law, and is a contributor to The Globe and Mail, Maclean’s, The Ottawa Citizen, and CBC News: The National

    Last week Canada’s Supreme Court ruled that doctors could not unilaterally ignore a Toronto family’s decision to keep their near-dead husband and father on life support. In the same breath, however, the court also confirmed that, under the laws of Ontario, Canada’s most populous province, a group of government-appointed adjudicators could yet overrule the family’s choice. That tribunal, not the family or the doctors, has the ultimate power to pull the plug.

    In other words: Canada has death panels.


    I use that term advisedly. Former Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin made it famous in the summer of 2009, when Congress was fighting over whether to pass Obamacare. As Republicans and Democrats continue to spar over health care, we should pause to wonder why millions of Canadians have come to accept the functional equivalent of an idea that almost sank health care reform even though, in this country, it was imaginary.


    Ontario’s Health Care Consent Act has been on the books for nearly two decades. Like similar laws in many Canadian provinces—and American states—it sets out the process for making treatment decisions when a patient cannot provide or withhold her consent—when she is in a coma and on life support, for example. In such cases, power automatically shifts to a “substitute decision maker,” usually a close relative. When these family members disagree with a patient’s doctors, and when the doctors are nonetheless determined to act, the dispute generally goes to court, where it can take months or even years to resolve. That is how it works in other Canadian and American jurisdictions, anyway. In Ontario, by contrast, the provincial legislature decided in 1996 to create a quasijudicial tribunal, the Consent and Capacity Board, to make these life-and-death decisions more quickly. If a patient’s substitute decision maker withholds consent, then doctors may apply to the board—comprised of lawyers, mental health professionals, and community members—for a determination that the proposed treatment is in the patient’s best interest. If so, the board has the power to consent on the patient’s behalf.


    At issue in the Ontario case was the fate of Hassan Rasouli, a retired engineer who has been comatose in a Toronto hospital since he suffered complications following brain surgery three years ago. When Rasouli’s doctors determined that he had no reasonable prospect of recovery, they sought to pull the plug. His family, convinced that Rasouli was slowly recovering, took his doctors to court.


    Last Friday, they won. The Supreme Court of Canada ruled 5–2 that Ontario doctors may not decide to withhold treatment from patients in Rasouli’s condition without consent from the next-in-line decision maker. In Rasouli’s case, that is his wife. But, if she refuses consent, then her husband’s doctors can still ask for a ruling from Ontario’s Consent and Capacity Board. The Supreme Court confirmed last week that the board has the power to overrule her.


    Most media coverage of the Canadian ruling has focused on the first part—that doctors cannot overrule family members—rather than the second—that an administrative tribunal can. Most Ontarians are evidently content with—or indifferent to, or simply ignorant of—the fact that the Consent and Capacity Board has the power to make difficult, even existential health care decisions on behalf of patients who are still (technically) alive. Americans, I expect, would be apoplectic.


    In Canada, with our single-payer health care system, Rasouli’s situation has a very public bottom line: Should taxpayers foot the bill for his family’s indefinite goodbye?


    But American critics of Canadian health care will declare that merely asking this question is unacceptable, unethical, even unthinkable—and that it proves that the Canadian system gives doctors a dangerous incentive to kill off their patients as quickly as possible. They are wrong. The Hippocratic Oath’s promise to do no harm still applies. But they are also only wrong in part. When taxpayers provide only a finite number of acute care beds in public hospitals, a patient whose life has all but ended, but whose family insists on keeping her on life support, is occupying precious space that might otherwise house a patient whose best years are still ahead.


    The incentives in the American health care system point in the opposite direction. In the United States, keeping an all-but-dead patient alive on life support in a hospital bed generates income for the hospital, for as long as its bills get paid.


    Ontario’s Consent and Capacity Board provides an objective process for resolving these difficult, end-of-life dilemmas. The board is instructed by law to focus on the patient’s best interests, not the health care system’s, or the government’s bottom line. Still, the law recognizes that, though it is usually in the patient’s best interests to be kept alive, it is not always so. As Rasouli’s doctors told the Supreme Court, prolonging his life would entail the risk of infection, bedsores, and organ failure. When recovery is out of the question, in other words, there may be fates worse than death.


    Yet, the question remains: Who decides? Remember that, outside of Ontario, the resolution of these end-of-life disputes is generally reserved for judges. Ontario has simply replaced them with experts and wise community members. That’s a lead other jurisdictions should consider following when families’ emotions and doctors’ judgments collide.


    Perhaps it is easier for Canadians to trust government-appointed panels, rather than judges, with decisions like these. For reasons that arguably go back to our respective foundings, Canadians tend to have more faith in our government and our bureaucratic processes than Americans do in theirs. Look at gun control: Canada lacks a constitutional guarantee of a right to bear arms in part because we never fought a war of independence that made one seem necessary. Similarly, when conservative politicians in the United States condemn Obamacare as a “government takeover” of health care, a lot of Canadians roll our eyes.


    Still, the Rasouli family’s situation is familiar, and it will only become more commonplace. Modern medicine increasingly allows us to extend life indefinitely, and so the question is no longer whether we can “play God,” but when, how, and who should do so. When humanity demands haste, and justice demands expert knowledge, Ontario’s death panels offer a solution—whatever Sarah Palin says.




    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...ood_thing.html
     "He has a swaggering retro machismo that will give hives to the Steinem cabal" -Camille Paglia on Donald Trump

    "Make way for the bad guy"- Tony Montana

    'This hamburger don't need no helper"- David Lee Roth

    "I wish Bon Jovi would've given me a call before he recorded all of his hits, because the lyrics would've been smarter, the melodies would've been much more smashing, and they would've sold a lot fewer records." -David Lee Roth

    "My beef is people thinking Bon Jovi is good cuz they sold lots of records to housewives." -tango

    "But being number one doesn’t really mean jack fuck all. We sold twice as many records as other records that year (1984) that landed in the Number One position." ~Eddie Van Halen

  2. #2
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    03.26.06
    Age
    43
    Location
    Vaughan, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    34,078
    Favorite VH Album

    like them all, no favourite
    Last Online

    12.11.17 @ 09:11 PM
    Likes
    1,314
    Liked 6,670 Times in 3,696 Posts

    Default

    both our nations have them. It's not news. It's just a way to scare people off universal care. As if private insurance companies would be so much more kind.

  3. #3
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    03.26.06
    Age
    43
    Location
    Vaughan, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    34,078
    Favorite VH Album

    like them all, no favourite
    Last Online

    12.11.17 @ 09:11 PM
    Likes
    1,314
    Liked 6,670 Times in 3,696 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bklynboy68 View Post

    Still, the Rasouli family’s situation is familiar, and it will only become more commonplace. Modern medicine increasingly allows us to extend life indefinitely, and so the question is no longer whether we can “play God,” but when, how, and who should do so. .
    what's so about this statement? We play God all the time in hospitals

  4. #4
    Atomic Punk Dave's Dreidel's Avatar
    Join Date
    01.10.05
    Age
    47
    Location
    Kate Upton's Closet
    Posts
    37,839
    Favorite VH Album

    Alex, Dave, Ed and Mike
    Favorite VH Song

    The songs with Ed on them
    Last Online

    12.11.17 @ 05:21 PM
    Likes
    3,496
    Liked 18,089 Times in 8,937 Posts

    Default

    How about all the people "quietly" given morphine overdoses?

    I'm all for pointing out government wrong doing, but I don't see anything nefarious with this. Hospitals and insurance companies do it now, what the hell is the difference?
    Taylor Swift is nice to look at. Adele can sing.

    Emperor Brett - "I can't believe you guys are analyzing song-by-song Van Halen III? What next, analyzing the script of Stroker Ace looking for some shred of Citizen Kane?"

    David Lee Roth did the impossible. He made Van Halen better. Deal with it!

    Preferred pronouns: he/him/his

    Hurricane Halen - Let's all gingery touch our sword tips!!!

    DONATE TO THE LINKS YA CHEAP BASTARDS!!!!

  5. #5
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    03.26.06
    Age
    43
    Location
    Vaughan, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    34,078
    Favorite VH Album

    like them all, no favourite
    Last Online

    12.11.17 @ 09:11 PM
    Likes
    1,314
    Liked 6,670 Times in 3,696 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave's Dreidel View Post
    How about all the people "quietly" given morphine overdoses?

    I'm all for pointing out government wrong doing, but I don't see anything nefarious with this. Hospitals and insurance companies do it now, what the hell is the difference?
    the difference is people think this is flake is someone to listen to


  6. #6
    Atomic Punk Dave's Dreidel's Avatar
    Join Date
    01.10.05
    Age
    47
    Location
    Kate Upton's Closet
    Posts
    37,839
    Favorite VH Album

    Alex, Dave, Ed and Mike
    Favorite VH Song

    The songs with Ed on them
    Last Online

    12.11.17 @ 05:21 PM
    Likes
    3,496
    Liked 18,089 Times in 8,937 Posts

    Default

    I find her very attractive, until she opens her mouth and starts talking.
    Taylor Swift is nice to look at. Adele can sing.

    Emperor Brett - "I can't believe you guys are analyzing song-by-song Van Halen III? What next, analyzing the script of Stroker Ace looking for some shred of Citizen Kane?"

    David Lee Roth did the impossible. He made Van Halen better. Deal with it!

    Preferred pronouns: he/him/his

    Hurricane Halen - Let's all gingery touch our sword tips!!!

    DONATE TO THE LINKS YA CHEAP BASTARDS!!!!

  7. #7
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    03.26.06
    Age
    43
    Location
    Vaughan, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    34,078
    Favorite VH Album

    like them all, no favourite
    Last Online

    12.11.17 @ 09:11 PM
    Likes
    1,314
    Liked 6,670 Times in 3,696 Posts

    Default

    Just to give some perspective on this story. I'll give you all more details (this is a local issue here).

    In October 2010 a man named Hassan Rasouli went into a coma caused by complications from brain surgery. The prognosis was there was virtually no chance of recovery and wanted to pull the plug on him. The man's wife (also a doctor) felt that decision was being made too quickly. It ended up in the courts and worked its way to the Supreme Court where they ruled that the doctors cannot pull the plug without the patient's (or in this case his family's consent). So now 3 years later we're still paying to keep someone alive who has no chance of recovery. For cases like this where no consent can be given it can also work itself up to Consent and Capacity Board in Ontario. But typically the family decides to end things long before that.

  8. #8
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    03.26.06
    Age
    43
    Location
    Vaughan, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    34,078
    Favorite VH Album

    like them all, no favourite
    Last Online

    12.11.17 @ 09:11 PM
    Likes
    1,314
    Liked 6,670 Times in 3,696 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave's Dreidel View Post
    I find her very attractive, until she opens her mouth and starts talking.
    America has so many really, really smart people and yet none of them every seem to be in a position to lead your country. Go figure.

    Her comments on death panels were the best example of fear tactics I've ever seen. To imply that a death panel would basically choose to kill her child (with Down Syndrome) to save money was just disgusting. You know who chooses to kill those kids? Not the govt, but rather the children's parents long before they get delivered.

  9. #9
    Good Enough pickslide's Avatar
    Join Date
    02.02.04
    Age
    49
    Location
    Jacksonville, FL
    Posts
    1,843
    Favorite VH Album

    Fair Warning
    Favorite VH Song

    Mean Street
    Last Online

    12.11.17 @ 01:46 PM
    Likes
    790
    Liked 795 Times in 431 Posts


    Premium Member

    Default

    I am a Libertarian and favor as little government interference in the health care market as possible (yeah, good luck with that). But even in a completely private system, someone makes these decisions. The doctor, the hospital, the insurance company, the family. People make them all the time already.

    It IS a little scary to think of a government "panel" deciding, and there IS potential for misuse (TSA, NSA, CIA, etc.) but pretending this is a new concept and that it will occur in some star chamber is a little irrational.

    Hence, Palin.

    TK

  10. #10
    Atomic Punk bklynboy68's Avatar
    Join Date
    01.10.12
    Posts
    18,732
    Favorite VH Album

    The Magnificent 7
    Last Online

    12.11.17 @ 05:58 PM
    Likes
    12,866
    Liked 11,728 Times in 6,498 Posts


    Premium Member

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave's Dreidel View Post
    How about all the people "quietly" given morphine overdoses?
    Well, is that not wrong? I'm not ok with something like that and I'm certainly not ok with government doing it either. Look at the scandal in the UK with the Liverpool Care Pathway. Who would be ok with something like that? It should not be a shock to anyone that something like that happened in a government run system.
     "He has a swaggering retro machismo that will give hives to the Steinem cabal" -Camille Paglia on Donald Trump

    "Make way for the bad guy"- Tony Montana

    'This hamburger don't need no helper"- David Lee Roth

    "I wish Bon Jovi would've given me a call before he recorded all of his hits, because the lyrics would've been smarter, the melodies would've been much more smashing, and they would've sold a lot fewer records." -David Lee Roth

    "My beef is people thinking Bon Jovi is good cuz they sold lots of records to housewives." -tango

    "But being number one doesn’t really mean jack fuck all. We sold twice as many records as other records that year (1984) that landed in the Number One position." ~Eddie Van Halen

  11. #11
    Atomic Punk edwardv's Avatar
    Join Date
    12.13.01
    Age
    59
    Location
    hanover pennsylvania
    Posts
    10,029
    Favorite VH Album

    diver down
    Favorite VH Song

    drop dead legs
    Last Online

    12.11.17 @ 05:27 PM
    Likes
    4,474
    Liked 2,383 Times in 1,487 Posts


    Premium Member

    Default

    I have watched too many of my family members wither away to the grave to be against euthanasia for certain situations but it should be a family or personal decision not a government one. Just get a living will with directives in it.
    EVH 1979: Well, actually it's not much of a vacation, because we run everything ourselves. We design our own album cover, we have to be in the office every day to sign checks - the whole corporation revolves around us. Nothing can be done without our approval. We even have photo approval.

  12. #12
    Atomic Punk lovemachine97(Version 2)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    06.05.03
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    13,962
    Last Online

    12.11.17 @ 04:22 PM
    Likes
    812
    Liked 3,107 Times in 1,819 Posts


    Premium Member

    Default

    My girlfriend's grandmother is 91. You wouldn't know it. She's more pepper than salt, she gets around using a walker, and she is completely coherent. You'd probably guess she was in her 70s.

    Well, she fell last week (tripped on a rug) and broke her leg near her hip replacement. If it were anyone younger, surgery would be a no brainer. But because of her age, she is considered a severe risk.

    I feel bad for her doctors, because her granddaughter is a doctor and one of her daughters is an RN. Anyway, all of the tests have come back showing she is really only a moderate risk for surgery, and even the cardiologist said that just by looking at her and her tests, she is moderate.

    But surgeons are scared to death to do anything. The problem is that if she doesn't get surgery, it is a death sentence. Apparently pneumonia and/or a blood clot are virtually certain, meaning that waiting 8 weeks for it to heal on its own is pretty much a death sentence.

    Surgery could be, but it also could just as easily fix it and get her back to being ambulatory.

    Because her granddaughter is a doctor, she is being transferred and a friend will do the surgery. But in any other scenario, she would not and she would die. Mostly, it is because the doctors don't want to get sued if she dies during surgery. Letting it heal is a sound course, but the doctor would not be blamed for her death.

    On the other hand, I think it would be different if the government made the decision not to do the surgery.

  13. #13
    Atomic Punk bklynboy68's Avatar
    Join Date
    01.10.12
    Posts
    18,732
    Favorite VH Album

    The Magnificent 7
    Last Online

    12.11.17 @ 05:58 PM
    Likes
    12,866
    Liked 11,728 Times in 6,498 Posts


    Premium Member

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by It's Mike View Post
    America has so many really, really smart people and yet none of them every seem to be in a position to lead your country. Go figure.

    Her comments on death panels were the best example of fear tactics I've ever seen. To imply that a death panel would basically choose to kill her child (with Down Syndrome) to save money was just disgusting. You know who chooses to kill those kids? Not the govt, but rather the children's parents long before they get delivered.
    This is what she said:

    "The Democrats promise that a government health care system will reduce the cost of health care, but as the economist Thomas Sowell has pointed out, government health care will not reduce the cost; it will simply refuse to pay the cost. And who will suffer the most when they ration care? The sick, the elderly, and the disabled, of course. The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's "death panel" so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their "level of productivity in society," whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil".
     "He has a swaggering retro machismo that will give hives to the Steinem cabal" -Camille Paglia on Donald Trump

    "Make way for the bad guy"- Tony Montana

    'This hamburger don't need no helper"- David Lee Roth

    "I wish Bon Jovi would've given me a call before he recorded all of his hits, because the lyrics would've been smarter, the melodies would've been much more smashing, and they would've sold a lot fewer records." -David Lee Roth

    "My beef is people thinking Bon Jovi is good cuz they sold lots of records to housewives." -tango

    "But being number one doesn’t really mean jack fuck all. We sold twice as many records as other records that year (1984) that landed in the Number One position." ~Eddie Van Halen

  14. #14
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    03.26.06
    Age
    43
    Location
    Vaughan, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    34,078
    Favorite VH Album

    like them all, no favourite
    Last Online

    12.11.17 @ 09:11 PM
    Likes
    1,314
    Liked 6,670 Times in 3,696 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bklynboy68 View Post
    This is what she said:

    "The Democrats promise that a government health care system will reduce the cost of health care, but as the economist Thomas Sowell has pointed out, government health care will not reduce the cost; it will simply refuse to pay the cost. And who will suffer the most when they ration care? The sick, the elderly, and the disabled, of course. The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's "death panel" so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their "level of productivity in society," whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil".

    And what she said is 100% fear tactic bullshit for the small minded to eat up like they're at a buffet.

  15. #15
    Atomic Punk bklynboy68's Avatar
    Join Date
    01.10.12
    Posts
    18,732
    Favorite VH Album

    The Magnificent 7
    Last Online

    12.11.17 @ 05:58 PM
    Likes
    12,866
    Liked 11,728 Times in 6,498 Posts


    Premium Member

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by It's Mike View Post
    And what she said is 100% fear tactic bullshit for the small minded to eat up like they're at a buffet.
    Wrong, Mike. When you set up a system where TWO panels of unelected bureaucrats will make life and death decisions it is evil. This is now the third defense of "death panels" by a major member of the left. In the beginning it was "ha ha Palin is stupid and she made that up". Now, the attitude is "fuck it, they're in there and so what if the majority of the people were lied to and they don't like it". Typical leftist bullshit.
    Last edited by bklynboy68; 10.22.13 at 04:50 PM.
     "He has a swaggering retro machismo that will give hives to the Steinem cabal" -Camille Paglia on Donald Trump

    "Make way for the bad guy"- Tony Montana

    'This hamburger don't need no helper"- David Lee Roth

    "I wish Bon Jovi would've given me a call before he recorded all of his hits, because the lyrics would've been smarter, the melodies would've been much more smashing, and they would've sold a lot fewer records." -David Lee Roth

    "My beef is people thinking Bon Jovi is good cuz they sold lots of records to housewives." -tango

    "But being number one doesn’t really mean jack fuck all. We sold twice as many records as other records that year (1984) that landed in the Number One position." ~Eddie Van Halen

 

 

Similar Threads

  1. TSA Defends Pat-Down Of Crying 4-Year-Old Girl At Kansas Airport
    By voivod in forum VH Fans Meeting Place (Non-Music)
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 04.30.12, 06:57 AM
  2. Oliver Stone defends September 11 movie
    By Rovus in forum VH Fans Meeting Place (Non-Music)
    Replies: 43
    Last Post: 02.14.12, 07:39 AM
  3. Ron Paul Defends The 99 Percent: ‘It’s A Very Healthy Movement’
    By rocknblues81 in forum VH Fans Meeting Place (Non-Music)
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 12.06.11, 04:28 PM
  4. $2M Michigan lottery winner defends use of food stamps
    By voivod in forum VH Fans Meeting Place (Non-Music)
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 05.19.11, 02:18 PM
  5. Whoopi Goldberg Defends Vick
    By omarbratley in forum VH Fans Meeting Place (Non-Music)
    Replies: 105
    Last Post: 09.08.07, 01:52 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •