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  1. #1
    Atomic Punk
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    12.11.17 @ 04:37 PM
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    Default Can the President Kill a U.S. Citizen in the U.S. Without Trial? AG Says YES

    Dear Senator Paul:

    On February 20, 2013, you wrote to John Brennan requesting additional information concerning the Adminìstration’s views about whether “the President has the power to authorize lethal force, such as a drone strike, against a U.S. citizen on U.S. soil, and without trial."

    As members of this Administration have previously indicated, the U.S. government has not carried out drone strikes in the United States and has no intention of doing so.

    As a policy matter, moreover, we reject the use of military force where well-established law enforcement authorities in this country provide the best means for incapacitating a terrorist threat. We have a long history of using the criminal justice system to incapacitate individuals located in our country who pose a threat to the United States and its interests abroad. Hundreds of individuals have been arrested and convicted of terrorism-related offenses in our federal courts.

    The question you have posed is therefore entirely hypothetical, unlikely to occur, and one we hope no President will ever have to confront. It is possible, l suppose, to ìmagine an extraordinary circumstance in which it would be necessary and appropriate under the Constitution and applicable laws of the United States for the President to authorize the military to use lethal force within the territory of the United States. For example, the President could conceivably have no choice but to authorize the military to use such force if necessary to protect the homeland in the circumstances of a catastrophic attack like the ones suffered on December 7, 1941, and September 11, 2001.

    Were such an emergency to arise, l would examine the particular facts and circumstances before advising the President on the scope of his authority.

    Sincerely,

    Eric H. Holder, Jr.
    Attorney General

    http://www.paul.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=724
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  2. #2
    Atomic Punk Dave's Dreidel's Avatar
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    12.16.17 @ 06:36 AM
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    The NDAA pretty much gave the federal government carte blanche to do whatever they want as long as they feel the United States is threatened.

    If anyone believes the lines from both Holder and Obama "we don't like that section of the NDAA, but don't worry, we won't use it", I've got a bridge to sell you. Yeah, you might not use that authority, but someone along the line will.
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  3. #3
    Atomic Punk ziggysmalls's Avatar
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    12.16.17 @ 08:21 AM
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave's Dreidel View Post
    The NDAA pretty much gave the federal government carte blanche to do whatever they want as long as they feel the United States is threatened.

    If anyone believes the lines from both Holder and Obama "we don't like that section of the NDAA, but don't worry, we won't use it", I've got a bridge to sell you. Yeah, you might not use that authority, but someone along the line will.
    That's because you are racist.

  4. #4
    Atomic Punk Dave's Dreidel's Avatar
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    12.16.17 @ 06:36 AM
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    Default

    I know, if you don't drink the Obama tea and think he is the Messiah, you are either a racist, a right wing zealot, or more likely both.
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  5. #5
    Atomic Punk LLFHS's Avatar
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    07.30.17 @ 08:59 PM
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    I hate these political threads but I have to ask this one question:

    Suppose that a 9-11 style attack, body-count and all, could have have been prevented by a single drone strike against an American acting as an enemy combatant, no matter who is currently in the white house. Would you approve of such a decision?

    I'm sure I'll get one straight answer on this and about a hundred "yes, but" answers that totally take us to Tangentland.
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  6. #6
    Atomic Punk CaboChris's Avatar
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    12.16.17 @ 04:38 PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLFHS View Post
    I hate these political threads but I have to ask this one question:

    Suppose that a 9-11 style attack, body-count and all, could have have been prevented by a single drone strike against an American acting as an enemy combatant, no matter who is currently in the white house. Would you approve of such a decision?

    I'm sure I'll get one straight answer on this and about a hundred "yes, but" answers that totally take us to Tangentland.
    You're going to get the ol' "Constitution must be upheld at all cost" argument from some. I generally agree to that point of view but in THAT scenario you laid out the Constitution be damned because if there is without a shadow of a doubt an American citizen is about to kill A LOT of other American citizens then human lives trump a piece of paper IMO. It's like the Bible to me, following the letter of the law is not that concerning to me but following the spirit of the law is.

  7. #7
    Atomic Punk Dave's Dreidel's Avatar
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    12.16.17 @ 06:36 AM
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LLFHS View Post
    I hate these political threads but I have to ask this one question:

    Suppose that a 9-11 style attack, body-count and all, could have have been prevented by a single drone strike against an American acting as an enemy combatant, no matter who is currently in the white house. Would you approve of such a decision?

    I'm sure I'll get one straight answer on this and about a hundred "yes, but" answers that totally take us to Tangentland.
    You might disagree with me on it, but at least I am consistent. I don't like drones being used period.

    We take killing people to lightly in my humble opinion. When there is not risk of death to yourself or your own people when you go kill someone, to me it takes away some of the nastiness of it, and makes it easier to do. Almost makes it a video game kill instead of real death.

    Just my opinion, and I am sure many will disagree, but I think our government has become to callous with the idea of killing people, and it will come back to bite us in the ass.
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  8. #8
    Atomic Punk lovemachine97(Version 2)'s Avatar
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    12.16.17 @ 11:04 AM
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    No. Unless someone is engaged in lethal force, you capture them, charge them, and try them.

    I could go through and demolish the "white paper" and Holder/Obama's refusal to just say "No," but the distilled version is this: The White House believes that President can kill a US citizen anywhere at any time for any reason. When it comes to doing it on US soil, we don't believe we'll ever do it, but we can. We will not provide evidence, nor will we feel obliged to claim responsibility if a strike does or does not take place.

    The vast, vast majority of overseas drone strikes have been against people not actively engaged in lethal force. These drone strikes have killed hundreds of civilians and children. These aren't surgical strikes. If we did this here, we'd kill innocents.

    It's a sad state of affairs that the President won't say he would not and does not have the power to kill a US citizen in secret wherever he may be for whatever reason.

  9. #9
    Atomic Punk bklynboy68's Avatar
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    12.16.17 @ 02:41 PM
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    Default Sen. Ted Cruz Batters Eric Holder on Domestic Drone Strikes in Tense Exchange

    Senator Ted Cruz (R-Texas) questioned Attorney General Eric Holder about the constitutionality of domestic drone strikes on U.S. citizens Wednesday, keeping his eye on the Constitution in a way few lawmakers are able to do.

    Discussing Holder’s letter to Senator Rand Paul (R-KY) saying the administration may consider a domestic drone strike on U.S. citizens, Cruz began by laying out a hypothetical scenario for the attorney general.

    If a U.S. citizen whom the administration strongly believes to be a terrorist threat is sitting quietly at a cafe in the United States– not posing an imminent threat of death or bodily harm– does the Constitution allow a drone to kill that citizen?

    “I would not think that that would be an appropriate use of any kind of lethal force. We would deal with that in a way we would typically deal with a situation like that–” Holder began to respond.

    Cruz interrupted: “With all due respect…my question wasn’t about ‘appropriateness’ or prosecutorial discretion, it was a simple legal question. Does the Constitution allow a U.S. citizen on U.S. soil, who doesn’t pose an imminent threat, to be killed by the U.S. government?”

    “I do not believe that — again, you have to look at all of the facts,” Holder prevaricated. “On the facts you have given me, this is a hypothetical, I would not think that in that situation the use of a drone or lethal force would be appropriate because–.”

    “General Holder, I have to tell you that I find it remarkable that in that hypothetical, which is deliberately very simple, that you are able to give a simple one-word, one-syllable answer: no,” Cruz stated. “I think it is unequivocal that if the U.S. government were to use a drone to take the life of a U.S. citizen on U.S. soil and that individual didn’t pose an imminent threat, that that would be a deprivation of life without due process.”

    Holder hit back by saying he didn’t think​ any​ lethal force– whether it be drones, guns, etc. — would be “appropriate” in such a situation, but Cruz didn’t let up.

    Speaking slowly and clearly, Cruz reminded: “You keep saying appropriate. My question isn’t about propriety. My question is about whether something is constitutional or not. As attorney general, you are the chief legal officer of the United States. Do you have a legal judgement on whether it would be constitutional to kill a U.S. citizen on U.S. soil in those circumstances?”






    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013...ense-exchange/
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  10. #10
    Atomic Punk lovemachine97(Version 2)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bklynboy68 View Post
    Senator Ted Cruz (R-Texas) questioned Attorney General Eric Holder about the constitutionality of domestic drone strikes on U.S. citizens Wednesday, keeping his eye on the Constitution in a way few lawmakers are able to do.

    Discussing Holder’s letter to Senator Rand Paul (R-KY) saying the administration may consider a domestic drone strike on U.S. citizens, Cruz began by laying out a hypothetical scenario for the attorney general.

    If a U.S. citizen whom the administration strongly believes to be a terrorist threat is sitting quietly at a cafe in the United States– not posing an imminent threat of death or bodily harm– does the Constitution allow a drone to kill that citizen?

    “I would not think that that would be an appropriate use of any kind of lethal force. We would deal with that in a way we would typically deal with a situation like that–” Holder began to respond.

    Cruz interrupted: “With all due respect…my question wasn’t about ‘appropriateness’ or prosecutorial discretion, it was a simple legal question. Does the Constitution allow a U.S. citizen on U.S. soil, who doesn’t pose an imminent threat, to be killed by the U.S. government?”

    “I do not believe that — again, you have to look at all of the facts,” Holder prevaricated. “On the facts you have given me, this is a hypothetical, I would not think that in that situation the use of a drone or lethal force would be appropriate because–.”

    “General Holder, I have to tell you that I find it remarkable that in that hypothetical, which is deliberately very simple, that you are able to give a simple one-word, one-syllable answer: no,” Cruz stated. “I think it is unequivocal that if the U.S. government were to use a drone to take the life of a U.S. citizen on U.S. soil and that individual didn’t pose an imminent threat, that that would be a deprivation of life without due process.”

    Holder hit back by saying he didn’t think​ any​ lethal force– whether it be drones, guns, etc. — would be “appropriate” in such a situation, but Cruz didn’t let up.

    Speaking slowly and clearly, Cruz reminded: “You keep saying appropriate. My question isn’t about propriety. My question is about whether something is constitutional or not. As attorney general, you are the chief legal officer of the United States. Do you have a legal judgement on whether it would be constitutional to kill a U.S. citizen on U.S. soil in those circumstances?”






    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013...ense-exchange/
    Yeah. Cruz came down to help Paul out on the floor too.

    Basically, The White House is saying that it is not unconstitutional to drop a bomb on a guy at a cafe sipping a coffee in America that we've located and identified as a wanted man. It would be "inappropriate," but not illegal, and the Obama administration will not rule out doing it.

    Is there anyone that is in favor of this?

  11. #11
    Atomic Punk ziggysmalls's Avatar
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    12.16.17 @ 08:21 AM
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLFHS View Post
    I hate these political threads but I have to ask this one question:

    Suppose that a 9-11 style attack, body-count and all, could have have been prevented by a single drone strike against an American acting as an enemy combatant, no matter who is currently in the white house. Would you approve of such a decision?

    I'm sure I'll get one straight answer on this and about a hundred "yes, but" answers that totally take us to Tangentland.
    I bet the DEA probably has the goods on about 100 houses in the east side of Cleveland that are being used by drug dealers or gangs. Should we not just use a drone to selectively blow them up since we eventually will save lives? Think about how much life a gangbanger or drug dealer takes in 20 years.

    If you do this across the country, you probably are looking at tens of thousands of lives. Sure there will be innocents killed but so be it. We kill innocents over in the middle east with nobody caring.

    I don't like this at all. Don't care if its a Democrat or Republican. If this exchange occurred 5 years ago, you would be hearing from Pelosi, Jabba (Michael Moore), Kerry, etc about how Bush is a dictator. However today, a whisper comes from the left.

  12. #12
    Eruption
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    10.30.17 @ 05:08 AM
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLFHS View Post
    I hate these political threads but I have to ask this one question:

    Suppose that a 9-11 style attack, body-count and all, could have have been prevented by a single drone strike against an American acting as an enemy combatant, no matter who is currently in the white house. Would you approve of such a decision?

    I'm sure I'll get one straight answer on this and about a hundred "yes, but" answers that totally take us to Tangentland.
    Not only yes, but hell yes

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  13. #13
    Good Enough vanzefflin's Avatar
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    10.26.17 @ 04:07 PM
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    Default

    Technically, this isn't new ground. Ruby Ridge and Waco are two of many examples of folks being targeted for termination without guilt being established. We have been heading here,for a long,long time.

    Where will we be in twenty years?
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  14. #14
    Atomic Punk
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    Quote Originally Posted by ziggysmalls View Post
    I bet the DEA probably has the goods on about 100 houses in the east side of Cleveland that are being used by drug dealers or gangs. Should we not just use a drone to selectively blow them up since we eventually will save lives? Think about how much life a gangbanger or drug dealer takes in 20 years.

    If you do this across the country, you probably are looking at tens of thousands of lives. Sure there will be innocents killed but so be it. We kill innocents over in the middle east with nobody caring.

    I don't like this at all. Don't care if its a Democrat or Republican. If this exchange occurred 5 years ago, you would be hearing from Pelosi, Jabba (Michael Moore), Kerry, etc about how Bush is a dictator. However today, a whisper comes from the left.
    Obviously they feel they can do whatever the hell they want.

  15. #15
    Hang 'Em High Hurricane Halen's Avatar
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    12.16.17 @ 03:38 PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by vanzefflin View Post

    Where will we be in twenty years?
    Drunk in a bar somewhere in New Orleans, I hope!

    But, that being said, I'm sure the ATF will have their own drones watching me, because I plan on doing/having 3 things in my possession. They are as follows:

    1. Cigarettes
    2. Bourbon
    3. Weapon ( of some type)!

    And when I say weapon, it, "could" be a gun, or it, "could" be a knife or even a set of Mardi Gras beads. Yes, Mardi Gras beads CAN fuck you up, eh SNIC? Ask him, he knows!!!!

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