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  1. #1
    Atomic Punk
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    Default Libertarianism experiencing a rebirth

    Something’s going on in America this election year: a renaissance of an ideal as old as the nation itself — that live-and-let-live, get-out-of-my-business, individualism vs. paternalism dogma that is the hallmark of libertarianism.

    Paul, the Texas congressman and GOP presidential hopeful who champions small government and individual liberty, is one manifestation of it.

    We saw that with his rising popularity during the Republican presidential primary season and, now, the recent “takeovers” of political conventions in Nevada, Minnesota, Maine, Louisiana and elsewhere that will result in a sizable faction of Paul delegates at the GOP convention come August.

    There are questions of how all of that might affect the choice of a GOP vice presidential candidate and the Republican Party platform.

    But what looms far larger are questions about whether an America fed up with government bans and government bailouts — with government, period — is seeing a return to its libertarian roots.

    In its annual governance survey conducted last fall, Gallup found that a record-high 81% of Americans were dissatisfied with the way the country was being governed. There were increases, too, in the responses to questions that gauge a more libertarian-view of governance: A record 49% said they believed government posed “an immediate threat to the rights and freedoms of ordinary citizens”; 57% believed the federal government had too much power; and 56% said they would be willing to pay less in taxes and accept fewer services (a position advocated during the campaign by Paul).


    The libertarian message is especially attractive to younger Americans who are war-weary, socially liberal and skeptical of government interference in their lives. They’ve grown up paying into Medicare and Social Security but hearing — endlessly — that they’re unlikely to receive the benefits of those programs. They see many government initiatives as unnecessary evils, and believe social issues such as abortion and gay marriage are matters of personal choice, not political debate.
    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/poli...1110081?pgno=2

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    Atomic Punk edwardv's Avatar
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    Its a birth not a rebirth.
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    Atomic Punk lovemachine97(Version 2)'s Avatar
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    This was predicted in last year's book by Reason Magazine Editor-in-Chief Matt Welch and Reason.tv/Reason.com Editor-in-Chief Nick Gillespie, The Declaration of Independents

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    Atomic Punk bsbll4's Avatar
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    Having veins of libertarianism in public policy is certainly a healthy thing, and we definitely need more of it. However, much like communism, capitalism, or any "ism" (Ferris Bueller?), it leads to unintended consequences that are often worse than that which it was intended to fix. For example, communism as government policy does not mean equality for everyone as it must centralize power, therefore corrupting the process by allowing too few individuals to make those decisions. Capitalism taken to its extreme leaves those unable to provide a service or product--especially those that don't have a choice in the matter--destitute.

    Libertarianism, like the other "isms" has to make blanket assumptions about a populace. For libertarianism, it assumes everyone has personal responsibility to take care of themselves and to make decisions that won't adversely effect those around them. We need to look no further than the recent (and current) housing crash to understand that what other people do does effect everyone eventually.
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    Good Enough pickslide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsbll4 View Post
    Having veins of libertarianism in public policy is certainly a healthy thing, and we definitely need more of it. However, much like communism, capitalism, or any "ism" (Ferris Bueller?), it leads to unintended consequences that are often worse than that which it was intended to fix. For example, communism as government policy does not mean equality for everyone as it must centralize power, therefore corrupting the process by allowing too few individuals to make those decisions. Capitalism taken to its extreme leaves those unable to provide a service or product--especially those that don't have a choice in the matter--destitute.

    Libertarianism, like the other "isms" has to make blanket assumptions about a populace. For libertarianism, it assumes everyone has personal responsibility to take care of themselves and to make decisions that won't adversely effect those around them. We need to look no further than the recent (and current) housing crash to understand that what other people do does effect everyone eventually.
    You could not be further from the truth. The housing crash was a DIRECT result of government intervention in the marketplace and not - in any way, shape, or form - a result of the housing marketing being too free.

    And libertarianism is the only political philosophy that truly takes into account how behavior affects other people, which is why it seeks to limit the use of force and coercion to very specific circumstances. Its cornerstone principle is that is the only time when government is in its proper place to intervene. You have confused our current crony capitalism with libertarianism, which it is not. In fact, you have confused capitalism with libertarianism, but one is an economic system (favored, of course, by libertarians) and the other is a political philosophy.

    TK

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    Atomic Punk lovemachine97(Version 2)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsbll4 View Post
    Having veins of libertarianism in public policy is certainly a healthy thing, and we definitely need more of it. However, much like communism, capitalism, or any "ism" (Ferris Bueller?), it leads to unintended consequences that are often worse than that which it was intended to fix. For example, communism as government policy does not mean equality for everyone as it must centralize power, therefore corrupting the process by allowing too few individuals to make those decisions. Capitalism taken to its extreme leaves those unable to provide a service or product--especially those that don't have a choice in the matter--destitute.

    Libertarianism, like the other "isms" has to make blanket assumptions about a populace. For libertarianism, it assumes everyone has personal responsibility to take care of themselves and to make decisions that won't adversely effect those around them. We need to look no further than the recent (and current) housing crash to understand that what other people do does effect everyone eventually.
    I think this is a blanket assumption about libertarians (small "l" intended). Just like there are far right, center, and moderate factions of the Republican and Democratic parties, there is a spectrum of libertarians.

    This rebirth is mostly independents who lean fiscally conservative and socially liberal. This would be the left wing of the libertarian party. Ron Paul would represent more of the right wing, Nick Gillespie the middle.

    Libertarianism is not anarchist, nor is it a "free-for-all". But they do believe that liberty is of utmost importance. Unfortunately, that comes with responsibility and risk, and as the government starts protecting ourselves from more and more of it, you go from sensible regulations to outlawing sodas bigger than 16 oz.

    Now, the government can tax you for inactivity to force you to do whatever they want. Their taxing power is now limitless in that it gives them the ability to make us do whatever they want us to do.

    I think more libertarians is a good thing.

  7. #7
    Atomic Punk Dave's Dreidel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pickslide View Post
    The housing crash was a DIRECT result of government intervention in the marketplace and not - in any way, shape, or form - a result of the housing marketing being too free.
    I think you are both wrong.

    Saying the government did not share in the blame would be naive, but to argue that is all the governments fault is as equally unwise in my humble opinion. It is not that simple.

    We could go go on a twenty page discussion about the ignorant steps taken by both private and public institutions, as well as individuals to create the housing bubble, but who wants to read through all that?
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  8. #8
    Atomic Punk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave's Dreidel View Post
    I think you are both wrong.

    Saying the government did not share in the blame would be naive, but to argue that is all the governments fault is as equally unwise in my humble opinion. It is not that simple.

    We could go go on a twenty page discussion about the ignorant steps taken by both private and public institutions, as well as individuals to create the housing bubble, but who wants to read through all that?
    Not me. I have a vague idea of what you're going to say.

  9. #9
    Atomic Punk bsbll4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pickslide View Post
    You could not be further from the truth. The housing crash was a DIRECT result of government intervention in the marketplace and not - in any way, shape, or form - a result of the housing marketing being too free.

    And libertarianism is the only political philosophy that truly takes into account how behavior affects other people, which is why it seeks to limit the use of force and coercion to very specific circumstances. Its cornerstone principle is that is the only time when government is in its proper place to intervene. You have confused our current crony capitalism with libertarianism, which it is not. In fact, you have confused capitalism with libertarianism, but one is an economic system (favored, of course, by libertarians) and the other is a political philosophy.

    TK
    Well certainly the government played a part by loosening the lending restrictions and pushing it all in the name of the American Dream, but it still takes the retarded home buyer with no monetary sense to take the 5-year balloon mortgage because he wants a 3rd bedroom for an "office" that he will then fill with his weekly winnings on Ebay while he works part-time at Dunkin Donuts.

    My point is that what other people do with themselves DOES have an effect on you as an individual--which is the problem with the eventual outcome of libertarian ideals. If everyone was responsible we could live in a utopian libertarian philosophy where there was little or no government. Unfortunately, legalizing drugs and having an open meth lab move in next door isn't exactly what I have in mind.

    Like I said, libertarianism is an important part of our political system and it's very healthy to have it as part of a policy. But I still maintain that like every other "ism," taken to its logical outcome, it creates as many problems as it solves.
    CNN may think my opinion matters, but you shouldn't.

  10. #10
    Atomic Punk
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsbll4 View Post
    Having veins of libertarianism in public policy is certainly a healthy thing, and we definitely need more of it. However, much like communism, capitalism, or any "ism" (Ferris Bueller?), it leads to unintended consequences that are often worse than that which it was intended to fix. For example, communism as government policy does not mean equality for everyone as it must centralize power, therefore corrupting the process by allowing too few individuals to make those decisions. Capitalism taken to its extreme leaves those unable to provide a service or product--especially those that don't have a choice in the matter--destitute.

    Libertarianism, like the other "isms" has to make blanket assumptions about a populace. For libertarianism, it assumes everyone has personal responsibility to take care of themselves and to make decisions that won't adversely effect those around them. We need to look no further than the recent (and current) housing crash to understand that what other people do does effect everyone eventually.
    Very good post.

  11. #11
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    I was never raised with a ideology... Although my dad speaks highly of Lyndon Johnson and poorly of Eisenhower. My dad was against civil rights and welfare for anyone that isn't white.

    I think it's probably best to not tie yourself down to one ideology, so I have to give myself a label, it's that I'm a moderate.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by lovemachine97(Version 2) View Post
    I think this is a blanket assumption about libertarians (small "l" intended). Just like there are far right, center, and moderate factions of the Republican and Democratic parties, there is a spectrum of libertarians.

    This rebirth is mostly independents who lean fiscally conservative and socially liberal. This would be the left wing of the libertarian party. Ron Paul would represent more of the right wing, Nick Gillespie the middle.

    Libertarianism is not anarchist, nor is it a "free-for-all". But they do believe that liberty is of utmost importance. Unfortunately, that comes with responsibility and risk, and as the government starts protecting ourselves from more and more of it, you go from sensible regulations to outlawing sodas bigger than 16 oz.

    Now, the government can tax you for inactivity to force you to do whatever they want. Their taxing power is now limitless in that it gives them the ability to make us do whatever they want us to do.

    I think more libertarians is a good thing.
    Each side wants to ban different things. A lot of republicans.. especially older ones don't seem to mind the drug wars... A lot of folks seem to be for banning things like large soda. According to young left folks, this country is just get fat and stupid, so it's time to tax people to stop them from eating and drinking products that will make them fatter.

    The left hates the death penalty, but is for abortion. The right is against abortion, but for the death penalty... Even though it's obviously a risk that an innocent person could be put to death. In some ways, america has got the government they asked for.
    Last edited by rocknblues81; 07.10.12 at 12:06 AM.

  13. #13
    Good Enough The J Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lovemachine97(Version 2) View Post
    This rebirth is mostly independents who lean fiscally conservative and socially liberal. This would be the left wing of the libertarian party. Ron Paul would represent more of the right wing, Nick Gillespie the middle.
    And this is me to a T, but I have a huge lack of faith in both major parties. I don't even know if it's worth voting in November, which is something I thought I would never say.

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    Good Enough The J Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocknblues81 View Post
    Each side wants to ban different things. A lot of republicans.. especially older ones don't seem to mind the drug wars... A lot of folks seem to be for banning things like large soda. According to young left folks, this country is just get fat and stupid, so it's time to tax people to stop them from eating and drinking products that will make them fatter.

    The left hates the death penalty, but is for abortion. The right is against abortion, but for the death penalty... Even though it's obviously a risk that an innocent person could be put to death. In some ways, america has got the government they asked for.
    Bravo.

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    Good Enough pickslide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsbll4 View Post
    Well certainly the government played a part by loosening the lending restrictions and pushing it all in the name of the American Dream, but it still takes the retarded home buyer with no monetary sense to take the 5-year balloon mortgage because he wants a 3rd bedroom for an "office" that he will then fill with his weekly winnings on Ebay while he works part-time at Dunkin Donuts.

    My point is that what other people do with themselves DOES have an effect on you as an individual--which is the problem with the eventual outcome of libertarian ideals. If everyone was responsible we could live in a utopian libertarian philosophy where there was little or no government. Unfortunately, legalizing drugs and having an open meth lab move in next door isn't exactly what I have in mind.

    Like I said, libertarianism is an important part of our political system and it's very healthy to have it as part of a policy. But I still maintain that like every other "ism," taken to its logical outcome, it creates as many problems as it solves.
    Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that it was ONLY the government's fault. The banks and buyers were all too willing. But this idea that greedy capitalists dove the van off the cliff is horseshit.

    TK

 

 

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