Follow us on...
Follow us on Twitter Follow us on Facebook Watch us on YouTube
Register
Page 1 of 13 123411 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 193
  1. #1
    Romeo Delight
    Join Date
    06.13.04
    Posts
    96
    Favorite VH Album

    All of CVH
    Favorite VH Song

    Girl Gone Bad
    Last Online

    07.17.17 @ 03:27 AM
    Likes
    2
    Liked 15 Times in 6 Posts

    Default ADKoT Production - Brickwalled Dynamics

    Let's get this out of the way: This is not a negative thread. I love this album. Absolutely. I'm also no expert on production, mastering, or anything of the sort. I'm just a semi-informed music lover. As such, please feel free to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. I very possibly am just wrong.

    That said: The album very much appears to be brickwalled. That is, the wave form is smashed(compressed) to the point that the peaks are chopped off, leaving much to be desired in the way of dynamics.

    A few informative links (The first youtube clip covers the basic point nicely if you want to skimp on the reading):



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_range_compression
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

    Now as for data on ADKoT. The reference site I am using is The Dynamic Range Database (http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/). According to early posted results, ADKoT is smashed to a DR of 5-6 on a 20 point scale. In comparison, VHI was 11-14 and 1984 was 12-14.

    Van Halen Albums DR Database: http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/inde...&search_album=

    It seems these tests are run with a program called foobar2000 using the Dynamic Range Meter plugin if you'd like to try it for yourself. I'm going to give this a shot tomorrow and dig out a few older CDs for comparison.

    So what now? Well, Ross Hogarth himself posted in the vinyl thread that the vinyl pressing will indeed have a unique mastering. This seems to be the outstanding hope for a true full dynamic experience. I understand that the business has changed and don't fault anyone in the VH camp at all for that. Today's reality is what we all must cope with. But I also know that an album can still be released without brickwalling in the modern age (Chinese Democracy runs 9-12 on the DR scale). And hopefully we'll see that full range on the LP.

    Will the world end if we are left with these compressed tracks? Of course not. But it would be a shame. These songs are simply amazing at best, solid at worst, and certainly deserve to be heard with a full dynamic range.

  2. #2
    Top Of The World allblacknblue's Avatar
    Join Date
    09.22.07
    Location
    Auckland New Zealand
    Posts
    178
    Favorite VH Album

    Van Halen I
    Favorite VH Song

    Secrets
    Last Online

    06.22.15 @ 02:05 AM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Default

    This is testing the you tube clips right? They sound shite compared to the CD.
    Van Halen is a cross between religion and ice-hockey


  3. #3
    Romeo Delight
    Join Date
    06.13.04
    Posts
    96
    Favorite VH Album

    All of CVH
    Favorite VH Song

    Girl Gone Bad
    Last Online

    07.17.17 @ 03:27 AM
    Likes
    2
    Liked 15 Times in 6 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by allblacknblue View Post
    This is testing the you tube clips right? They sound shite compared to the CD.
    No, this is the uncompressed wave form from the CD according to the posted results. There is also a result posted for the mp3 version and the findings concur. The source site is a niche community dedicaed to compiling DR data and would not be testing youtube clips. The tests take enough effort and knowledge that the data is almost always solid.

  4. #4
    Top Of The World allblacknblue's Avatar
    Join Date
    09.22.07
    Location
    Auckland New Zealand
    Posts
    178
    Favorite VH Album

    Van Halen I
    Favorite VH Song

    Secrets
    Last Online

    06.22.15 @ 02:05 AM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Default

    "Lies, damned lies and statistics"
    Van Halen is a cross between religion and ice-hockey


  5. #5
    Eruption
    Join Date
    01.02.04
    Posts
    851
    Last Online

    12.12.17 @ 06:45 PM
    Likes
    3
    Liked 40 Times in 24 Posts

    Default

    Aren't all new cd's this way? I don't understand the relevance of comparing to a CD mixed/mastered more than 30 years ago.

    I get the point that overly compressed music sucks (my thoughts exactly), but I don't think it makes sense to compare it to anything that old.

    Sadly, it's a whole different world.

    acs

  6. #6
    Emperor of VHLinks.com Brett's Avatar
    Join Date
    09.02.99
    Age
    46
    Location
    Somewhere Near LA
    Posts
    68,733
    Favorite VH Album

    Fair Warning
    Favorite VH Song

    Unchained
    Last Online

    12.17.17 @ 11:54 PM
    Likes
    1,265
    Liked 11,602 Times in 4,946 Posts

    Default

    I thought the mastering on this album was pretty good. Doesn't sound blown out to me.
    Webmaster
    VHLinks.com - Your Van Halen Internet Resource Guide
    http://www.vhlinks.com

    JamToThis.com
    Audio/Video Trading Community
    Tons of Van Halen!

  7. #7
    Atomic Punk
    Join Date
    10.11.09
    Posts
    10,568
    Last Online

    12.17.17 @ 09:05 PM
    Likes
    575
    Liked 1,488 Times in 1,017 Posts


    Premium Member

    Default

    This is the the argument that the guys on the other forum were making. I do agree that the production isn't all that great.

  8. #8
    Good Enough
    Join Date
    12.15.07
    Location
    Iowa/Illinois
    Posts
    1,807
    Favorite VH Album

    Balance
    Last Online

    10.26.16 @ 03:37 PM
    Likes
    2
    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    One thing I've learned is you can't get caught up in the numbers. There's definitely stuff out there that sounds absolutely squashed, at it would meter at 10 DR. There's also stuff at 4-5 DR that you'd swear was super dynamic. With so many other variables in the mix altering the perceived squashed-ness, the numbers are somewhat meaningless unless you are getting into the extremes (like Death Magnetic, etc.).

    It basically comes down to if it sounds squashed, then it is. If it doesn't, then it's not. Don't worry about the numbers. IMHO, this new VH album's production is FANTASTIC, and sounds very 'hot' and loud, but not enough to sound slammed. It still 'breathes', and I really like it. Hats off to the band and the entire production staff.

    Another thing to consider: what are you listening to it on/thru? That can also hugely effect how squashed (or not) something you listen to will sound.

    Because I'm a recording geek, and I was curious, I just threw some of the tracks into a Pro Tools session and metered it. I'm assuming their "DR Scale" correlates to the actual dynamic range meter measurements and not just an arbitrary "this one is too loud, I give it a 3."

    Tattoo averages out at about 6.2-7.2 DR throughout the track. It hits down into the 5's a few times when all the vocals, harmonies, synths, guitars, etc. all come in. It's in the 8's and 9's during the verses and quieter parts. It's peak limited to -0.1dB, to prevent any converter clipping.

    Blood And Fire averages about the same as Tattoo, but sticks more constantly in the low 6's, and does reach into the 5.5 range quite a few times. The quieter parts are up in the 7-8 range. Peak limited to -0.1dB.

    As Is the drum intro is in the 11-12 range. When the band comes in, it goes to the 6-7 range. The song average approx. around 6.5. It does go down into the 5's a little during really dense passages. Peak limited to -0.1dB.

    For reference (one of my favorite VH albums from a production standpoint), Amsterdam averages out at about 7.5-8.8 DR. It gets down to 7.0 very briefly. But again, that was pre loudness war and modern plugin limiting, etc. It is extremely punchy and dynamic, and not at all quiet. I have the Japanese Balance CD release, and it is NOT peak limited. My meter was showing overages.

    IMHO, averaging in at 5-7 for most of the album is perfect for modern rock. It's about where I shoot for soundwise on rock and metal I produce too. It can compete with the uber loud crap, but it isn't smashed and distorted horribly either, and still has some breathing room. Another thing I should mention is that I bet you the bass alone is causing an extra 2 DR less reading because of how loud it's mixed into the album (which I LOVE by the way). The bass stuff can do weird things with compressors, especially in bus comps or mastering, and it has to either be squashed a little more than the upper range frequencies, or it has to be left slightly lower in the overall mix (basically, the strategy they used on previous VH releases). I bet you if the bass was as loud on Balance as it is on ADKOT, Balance would clock in at about a 6-7 DR average.
    Last edited by mrjstudios; 02.08.12 at 01:06 AM.

  9. #9
    Top Of The World Yiggity's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.18.11
    Posts
    211
    Last Online

    11.16.12 @ 09:55 AM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    I brought this up in another thread and several people were annoyed. I've bought the CD and its not mastered well. People were trying to tell me it was just the fact that I was listening to the mp3's (even though that's what I was comparing them to so it was a level playing field) but alas, the CD is lacking dynamics as well. It's muddy and lacks definition. It's not unlistenable but still disappointing. I'm comparing this to other similar type releases that have come out in the last couple years. I'm not an audiophile. I have a factory car system and a pc with average speakers and sub woofer at home. I've listened to thousands of songs on these and it is what it is. This album could have been mastered better.

  10. #10
    Top Of The World
    Join Date
    10.16.01
    Location
    PDX
    Posts
    214
    Favorite VH Album

    Fair Warning
    Favorite VH Song

    Unchained
    Last Online

    08.22.12 @ 09:58 AM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Like almost every other record in the last 10 years, the compression on ADKOT is insane. It would be nice if labels would release limited edition "Audiophile" versions of some records with reduced compression and real dynamic range.

    I'm tempted go out and buy a turntable just to listen to the vinyl version of ADKOT. Or at the very least, download a vinyl rip.

  11. #11
    Top Of The World allblacknblue's Avatar
    Join Date
    09.22.07
    Location
    Auckland New Zealand
    Posts
    178
    Favorite VH Album

    Van Halen I
    Favorite VH Song

    Secrets
    Last Online

    06.22.15 @ 02:05 AM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mrjstudios View Post
    One thing I've learned is you can't get caught up in the numbers. There's definitely stuff out there that sounds absolutely squashed, at it would meter at 10 DR. There's also stuff at 4-5 DR that you'd swear was super dynamic. With so many other variables in the mix altering the perceived squashed-ness, the numbers are somewhat meaningless unless you are getting into the extremes (like Death Magnetic, etc.).

    It basically comes down to if it sounds squashed, then it is. If it doesn't, then it's not. Don't worry about the numbers. IMHO, this new VH album's production is FANTASTIC, and sounds very 'hot' and loud, but not enough to sound slammed. It still 'breathes', and I really like it. Hats off to the band and the entire production staff.

    Another thing to consider: what are you listening to it on/thru? That can also hugely effect how squashed (or not) something you listen to will sound.

    Because I'm a recording geek, and I was curious, I just threw some of the tracks into a Pro Tools session and metered it. I'm assuming their "DR Scale" correlates to the actual dynamic range meter measurements and not just an arbitrary "this one is too loud, I give it a 3."

    Tattoo averages out at about 6.2-7.2 DR throughout the track. It hits down into the 5's a few times when all the vocals, harmonies, synths, guitars, etc. all come in. It's in the 8's and 9's during the verses and quieter parts. It's peak limited to -0.1dB, to prevent any converter clipping.

    Blood And Fire averages about the same as Tattoo, but sticks more constantly in the low 6's, and does reach into the 5.5 range quite a few times. The quieter parts are up in the 7-8 range. Peak limited to -0.1dB.

    As Is the drum intro is in the 11-12 range. When the band comes in, it goes to the 6-7 range. The song average approx. around 6.5. It does go down into the 5's a little during really dense passages. Peak limited to -0.1dB.

    For reference (one of my favorite VH albums from a production standpoint), Amsterdam averages out at about 7.5-8.8 DR. It gets down to 7.0 very briefly. But again, that was pre loudness war and modern plugin limiting, etc. It is extremely punchy and dynamic, and not at all quiet. I have the Japanese Balance CD release, and it is NOT peak limited. My meter was showing overages.

    IMHO, averaging in at 5-7 for most of the album is perfect for modern rock. It's about where I shoot for soundwise on rock and metal I produce too. It can compete with the uber loud crap, but it isn't smashed and distorted horribly either, and still has some breathing room. Another thing I should mention is that I bet you the bass alone is causing an extra 2 DR less reading because of how loud it's mixed into the album (which I LOVE by the way). The bass stuff can do weird things with compressors, especially in bus comps or mastering, and it has to either be squashed a little more than the upper range frequencies, or it has to be left slightly lower in the overall mix (basically, the strategy they used on previous VH releases). I bet you if the bass was as loud on Balance as it is on ADKOT, Balance would clock in at about a 6-7 DR average.
    Great post. Informative but very readable. Learnt some stuff today! Thanks!
    Van Halen is a cross between religion and ice-hockey


  12. #12
    Eruption Spool's Avatar
    Join Date
    05.25.04
    Age
    49
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    1,199
    Favorite VH Album

    Fair Warning
    Favorite VH Song

    Mean Street
    Last Online

    12.17.17 @ 07:00 PM
    Likes
    277
    Liked 181 Times in 82 Posts


    Donor

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lance watts View Post
    Like almost every other record in the last 10 years, the compression on ADKOT is insane. It would be nice if labels would release limited edition "Audiophile" versions of some records with reduced compression and real dynamic range.

    I'm tempted go out and buy a turntable just to listen to the vinyl version of ADKOT. Or at the very least, download a vinyl rip.
    I got so tired on the cd quality that I was finding myself listening to less and less music ... dusted off some old vinyl from the 70's and an old turntable and love was back in the first moments ... if your under 30 and not been exposed to vinyl give it a try ... while I still listen to cd's via car I never play cd's if I have the vinyl on the home stereo there is simply no comparison ... and since my venture back to the vinyl I have been trying to purchase as much as I can on 180gram the sound quality is stunning ....

    cant wait to hear ADKOT on vinyl come march .... then the experience will be complete ...

  13. #13
    Eruption PT 5150's Avatar
    Join Date
    05.19.00
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    1,192
    Last Online

    12.17.17 @ 05:34 PM
    Likes
    296
    Liked 127 Times in 74 Posts

    Default

    Who gives a shit.You either like the album or not.
    ITS 5150 TIME

  14. #14
    Banned! ExpandedConsciousness's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.12.10
    Posts
    1,690
    Last Online

    05.08.15 @ 01:28 AM
    Likes
    1,665
    Liked 620 Times in 379 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PT 5150 View Post
    Who gives a shit.You either like the album or not.
    "wHoG ive SA shIt. yoUE ITH er liK E Th Ealb uM o RnoT."

    What you do with data matters. Imagine sitting in the studio, live, and hearing this performed. My ears need open and free music.

  15. #15
    Eruption Casemeister's Avatar
    Join Date
    04.18.03
    Age
    30
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    1,285
    Favorite VH Album

    VH, VH2, FW, ADKOT
    Favorite VH Song

    Big River, Little Guitars
    Last Online

    03.22.17 @ 07:01 AM
    Likes
    12
    Liked 120 Times in 49 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PT 5150 View Post
    Who gives a shit.You either like the album or not.
    I love the album, but I don't like the way it sounds at all. It's a fatiguing listen.

    I find it funny how a lot of people seem so annoyed that there could be anything wrong with this album. Well, there is: the mastering.

    And to suggest that "every" recent CD is brickwalled doesn't make the situation any better. If you do a Google search, you'll find that there is actually a bit of a movement against it, and some bands have reacted by releasing albums not totally devoid of dynamic range.
    Waylon Jennings: 1937-2002.
    "There ain't nothin' quite as sad as watching your heroes die."

    RIP, Hoss!

 

 

Similar Threads

  1. OLP MM Series OUT OF PRODUCTION
    By s6275 in forum Guitar Room
    Replies: 87
    Last Post: 02.25.09, 07:34 AM
  2. Charvel (USA Production Models)
    By Hammer Guy in forum Guitar Room
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 01.20.09, 06:38 AM
  3. VH's Production
    By Jedi McFly in forum 2007 Van Halen Tour
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 02.21.08, 10:57 AM
  4. Wolfgang Production
    By Space Tape in forum Guitar Room
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 12.03.01, 11:05 AM
  5. Your pick for best album production.
    By Top Timmy in forum VH Songs/Albums/Videos
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 03.03.01, 12:11 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •