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  1. #1
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    Default An Old Dog and New Tricks

    So last weekend my new band played a gig (our first one as this unit), and things went pretty well, but a young band before us went on with pretty much no guitar gear. The two guitarists both used Line 6 wireless with the rhythm player using one of the newer Pods, and the lead player using a rack modeller.

    Now that aside, I went on with my 5150, and our bassist uses an old Ampeg SVT, and mic with 57's, and we sounded real good, but it took us a lot longer to get dialed in at the desk, and eliminate feedback etc.... but frankly, when we were listening to the band before us with the modelling stuff, it just sounded abrasive as hell, and all the guitars the guys switched between lacked any noticeable character difference; The Ibanez sounded like the ESP, and the Les Paul etc.....The only discernable difference was when the lead player pulled out a single coil Tele.
    So I guess this is just a question regarding how you guys feel about the state of the modelling stuff now.
    It would be nice to carry less gear around on those short notice gigs, and from what I can tell, it seems to take less time to get the sound right at least at the board, but dunno.....There's just something that rubs me wrong about them little gizmos! Lol. I realize these guys may just have a shitty sound period which is just as possible to get with a vintage half stack, but do any of you guys use modelling stuff live and are totally happy, or do you just accept the sacrifice of tone for convenience?
    If you are satisfied....what do you use?
    Thanks.
    JJ
    If so....what are you using.

  2. #2
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    I've been using tons of different gear recently. I've retired my 5150 and JCM 800 (2203) and replaced them with a Diezel VH4 which can do the same job as both amps and then some, it even sounds great at low volumes, which is rare for a tube amp. BUT. for smaller gigs i tend to use a Line6 Spider III 150w combo, that way i just need the amp, a cable and a guitar! Set-up and break down takes about a minute..lol. The trick is knowing how to dial in the Line6 and what onboard effects to avoid. Firstly you need to dial out a lot of the low end and boost the mids. Secondly avoid the built in modulation effects, they're too in your face and not at all subtle. I also purchased a Fractal Axe FX Ultra and a pair of Atomic Wedges for recording, and I swear you cannot tell that it's a modeler, the thing is incredible. I've not used it live yet though as I've not bought a foot controler for it (It sits in my studio and I manually change the presets) I might throw down some cash and get a foot controller and then retire the Line6.

    As another note: I've always used a solid state amp for crystal clean tones and use an A/B box to switch between amps if the setlist calls for it.
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  3. #3
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    10.26.16 @ 03:37 PM
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    If you use something like an Eleven Rack (what I use a lot now) or an AxeFx correctly, no one will be able to tell that it's not real live or in the studio. In other words a 'high end' modeller that is not made by Line6 can get you 99.99999% of the way there, if not 100%. And trust me, I'm a tube gear snob! (or... should I say I WAS a tube gear snob...)

    For the record, I own an original block letter and bias modded 5150 that I love, I built a completely custom SLO-100-like 100 watt tube head, (and I've played many of the 'best' amp brands out there), and then I have my Eleven Rack. The Eleven Rack is amazing, and I can barely tell that it's not a real amp -- some settings I probably couldn't tell the difference in a blind test. Does it do the '5150 thing' 100%? Nope. (To be fair, it doesn't have a direct 5150 model -- the closest amp in the Eleven Rack is the SLO 100 model.) But does it do the high gain models it DOES have, like the SLO and Bogner extremely well? YES. Actually, it does the lower gain amp models even better it seems.

    For me, it comes down to the fact that the tones I can get out of any of my real amps or Eleven Rack are so close in sound and feeling, that I like them all. The difference between the Elevenrack and say my 5150 is not like Tubes vs. Modeller. To me, it's more like the difference between 2 high end tube amps -- so more just a matter of preference for song or situation.

    So a lot of times, I'll opt to just take the Eleven Rack, because the tone is not worse than my 5150 (different, but not worse), and the portability and usability factor is about 100 times better. With the Eleven Rack, I send stereo balanced outputs to a PA or desk, and I can play silently. With my 5150, I have the head, an attenuator, cabs, microphone, mic stand, and I'm always louder than everyone else, no matter where the master volume is set.

    And then if someone moves the mic 2 millimeters, my tone completely changes... etc.

    What I will venture to say is that it's a lot easier to sound bad on a Line6 if you don't know what your doing, than on a nice tube amp. Tubes are very forgiving in a lot of ways, where cheaper modellers (and even the best ones out there) are not. Also, you have to figure in the fact that a lot of people with the lower end modellers have them because they are just starting out and that is all they wanted to invest in gear or could afford. And consequently, a guitarist who is still using the line6 or similar unit they bought 3 years ago when they first started guitar, is likely not as good at tweaking it to sound good as someone who's been playing way longer. I've heard some pros get INSANELY good tones out of crappy modellers.... Johnny Beane comes to mind with his Pod or whatever he uses for demos .

    So like most things, I think it comes down to who and how they are using what they have. I guarantee you I could find a hundred people that could make a Diezel or Ed's 5150's sound like total crap. And by the same token, I've heard tons of people get insanely great sounds out of some of the 'crappiest' modeling gear imaginable.
    Last edited by mrjstudios; 09.06.11 at 02:00 PM.

  4. #4
    Good Enough JakeK21's Avatar
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    10.26.15 @ 12:38 PM
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    I have a little 15-watt Line 6 Spider IV amp from when I first got into playing and every guitar pretty much sounds the same through it. Don't know if this is just a thing with Line 6 stuff or what, but whenever I hear modeling software, it tends to seem like the guitar really means little to nothing in the overall tone. It seems as if each setting will strictly make a certain sound.

    Some of the newer modeling stuff is pretty good, but there's plenty of it I don't like. I'll stick with my 100-watt Blackstar.

  5. #5
    Good Enough JakeK21's Avatar
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    10.26.15 @ 12:38 PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjstudios View Post
    If you use something like an Eleven Rack (what I use a lot now) or an AxeFx correctly, no one will be able to tell that it's not real live or in the studio. In other words a 'high end' modeller that is not made by Line6 can get you 99.99999% of the way there, if not 100%. And trust me, I'm a tube gear snob! (or... should I say I WAS a tube gear snob...)

    For the record, I own an original block letter and bias modded 5150 that I love, I built a completely custom SLO-100-like 100 watt tube head, (and I've played many of the 'best' amp brands out there), and then I have my Eleven Rack. The Eleven Rack is amazing, and I can barely tell that it's not a real amp -- some settings I probably couldn't tell the difference in a blind test. Does it do the '5150 thing' 100%? Nope. (To be fair, it doesn't have a direct 5150 model -- the closest amp in the Eleven Rack is the SLO 100 model.) But does it do the high gain models it DOES have, like the SLO and Bogner extremely well? YES. Actually, it does the lower gain amp models even better it seems.

    For me, it comes down to the fact that the tones I can get out of any of my real amps or Eleven Rack are so close in sound and feeling, that I like them all. The difference between the Elevenrack and say my 5150 is not like Tubes vs. Modeller. To me, it's more like the difference between 2 high end tube amps -- so more just a matter of preference for song or situation.

    So a lot of times, I'll opt to just take the Eleven Rack, because the tone is not worse than my 5150 (different, but not worse), and the portability and usability factor is about 100 times better. With the Eleven Rack, I send stereo balanced outputs to a PA or desk, and I can play silently. With my 5150, I have the head, an attenuator, cabs, microphone, mic stand, and I'm always louder than everyone else, no matter where the master volume is set.

    And then if someone moves the mic 2 millimeters, my tone completely changes... etc.
    Yes, the Eleven Rack is the best modeling amp thingy out there. I'd like to get one someday. I once heard some VH-type samples and I was amazed by the quality. It's great at saving space and all of that too.

    Do you get the chance to mess around with feedback (like in a Hendrix way) with that thing or what? Is there a special pedalboard you have to use with it and can you plug it into a regular amp cab?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjstudios View Post
    If you use something like an Eleven Rack (what I use a lot now) or an AxeFx correctly, no one will be able to tell that it's not real live or in the studio. In other words a 'high end' modeller that is not made by Line6 can get you 99.99999% of the way there, if not 100%. And trust me, I'm a tube gear snob! (or... should I say I WAS a tube gear snob...)

    For the record, I own an original block letter and bias modded 5150 that I love, I built a completely custom SLO-100-like 100 watt tube head, (and I've played many of the 'best' amp brands out there), and then I have my Eleven Rack. The Eleven Rack is amazing, and I can barely tell that it's not a real amp -- some settings I probably couldn't tell the difference in a blind test. Does it do the '5150 thing' 100%? Nope. (To be fair, it doesn't have a direct 5150 model -- the closest amp in the Eleven Rack is the SLO 100 model.) But does it do the high gain models it DOES have, like the SLO and Bogner extremely well? YES. Actually, it does the lower gain amp models even better it seems.


    For me, it comes down to the fact that the tones I can get out of any of my real amps or Eleven Rack are so close in sound and feeling, that I like them all. The difference between the Elevenrack and say my 5150 is not like Tubes vs. Modeller. To me, it's more like the difference between 2 high end tube amps -- so more just a matter of preference for song or situation.

    So a lot of times, I'll opt to just take the Eleven Rack, because the tone is not worse than my 5150 (different, but not worse), and the portability and usability factor is about 100 times better. With the Eleven Rack, I send stereo balanced outputs to a PA or desk, and I can play silently. With my 5150, I have the head, an attenuator, cabs, microphone, mic stand, and I'm always louder than everyone else, no matter where the master volume is set.

    And then if someone moves the mic 2 millimeters, my tone completely changes... etc.

    What I will venture to say is that it's a lot easier to sound bad on a Line6 if you don't know what your doing, than on a nice tube amp. Tubes are very forgiving in a lot of ways, where cheaper modellers (and even the best ones out there) are not. Also, you have to figure in the fact that a lot of people with the lower end modellers have them because they are just starting out and that is all they wanted to invest in gear or could afford. And consequently, a guitarist who is still using the line6 or similar unit they bought 3 years ago when they first started guitar, is likely not as good at tweaking it to sound good as someone who's been playing way longer. I've heard some pros get INSANELY good tones out of crappy modellers.... Johnny Beane comes to mind with his Pod or whatever he uses for demos .

    So like most things, I think it comes down to who and how they are using what they have. I guarantee you I could find a hundred people that could make a Diezel or Ed's 5150's sound like total crap. And by the same token, I've heard tons of people get insanely great sounds out of some of the 'crappiest' modeling gear imaginable.

    That's cool MRJ!
    That's what the lead guy had...The Eleven Rack. That's why I was a bit surprised at the overall sound. I've heard folks rave about them ,then hearing it live, I was less than overly impressed, but i guess it's in the tweaks and whatnot.
    The Pod just sounded terrible though, yet I have heard some people who make 'em sound good, but they always sound like a Pod.
    Now as far as modeling amps, I do have a little Vox AD50VT, and that thing actually sounds amazing. It has an SLO setting as well (called US High Gain), it uses a 12ax7 tube in the attenuation for the master, and I have recorded this amp and people have no idea it's not my regular 5150 or Marshalls.
    My only issue with it is the construction build quality.....namely the pots. They are on top of the amp like an AC-30, but they are far from sealed and they are scratchy as hell and sometimes the sound drops out altogether.
    Too bad cuz it's a handy little amp that pushes some real volume and has great feel for not a ton of dough. I've since cleaned the pots with contact cleaner, but replaceing them would be a major undertaking as they are all on a very delicate circuit board.

    So that's why I was asking about modelers like the Eleven as well as the Fractal....I know the Fractal is mucho expensive.....and that's about all I know about it! lol
    I'll have to check out the Eleven Rack though. I've not seen them in my local stores, so I'll have to do some digging.
    MRJ...You did a song a while back......Eight Pennies I think it was.....Was that on the Eleven Rack?
    Last edited by we die young; 09.06.11 at 02:24 PM.

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    Yep. " " is 100% Eleven Rack, and it was actually recorded pre-expansion pack, which adds new amps, effects, and a lot more tweakability.

    For all of the leads and obvious background guitars, I made my own preset, and used the Eleven Racks' 100 Watt Plexi model, which I think is fantastic. It really nails the FEEL of an old Marshall. I think I ran that into a Vintage 30 cab model, and added a little reverb and delay, all in the 11rack. I also used the 11Racks' Phase 90 model, which is incredibly accurate too. So much so that I don't think I'll be buying a real one. (To be fair, the flanger model is not as good, and I do own a EVH MXR Flanger which I use instead.)

    If you listen really carefully, the other guitars on the track are on a highly compressed and clean preset that I made on the 11Rack.
    Last edited by mrjstudios; 09.06.11 at 02:34 PM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjstudios View Post
    Yep. " " is 100% Eleven Rack, and it was actually recorded pre-expansion pack, which adds new amps, effects, and a lot more tweakability.

    For all of the leads and obvious background guitars, I made my own preset, and used the Eleven Racks' 100 Watt Plexi model, which I think is fantastic. It really nails the FEEL of an old Marshall. I think I ran that into a Vintage 30 cab model, and added a little reverb and delay, all in the 11rack. I also used the 11Racks' Phase 90 model, which is incredibly accurate too. So much so that I don't think I'll be buying a real one. (To be fair, the flanger model is not as good, and I do own a EVH MXR Flanger which I use instead.)

    If you listen really carefully, the other guitars on the track are on a highly compressed and clean preset that I made on the 11Rack.
    That song sounded great man!
    How do you find the Eleven's responsiveness to different guitars/pickups/tonal character? One beef I have with a lot of the modelers is like I said earlier.
    One humbucking guitar tends to sound almost exactly like the next pretty much regardless of wood type or other things that get picked up in a traditional tube or solid state amp.
    Reason I ask is my ax collection has been scaled back to each guitar being set up to sound a specific way, and it's taken me a long time to get it that way.

    For instance, my Danelectro DC59 reissue I retrofitted vintage electronics into and it sounds almost exactly like Pages through my old Marshall. It took much experimenting with various pots and pickups to get it bang on.

    I mention this guitar as the example because I've heard some modeling amps that turn that very distinctive Danny sound and make it sound more like a hollowed out Strat. So with all my other guitars going through the same numerous pickup and part swaps to get the best out of them, my requirement would be for a modeler that translated those attributes the same way as any of my "real" amps would.
    Dunno if this makes sense......I guess I mean to ask do you pickup the same things with your ear playing through the Eleven Rack between different guitar's tone or response that you know exists , playing through your traditional amps?
    Last edited by we die young; 09.06.11 at 03:13 PM.

  9. #9
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    Check out some of this guys videos with the Elevenrack, top stuff, really might get one of these.




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    Quote Originally Posted by we die young View Post
    That song sounded great man!
    How do you find the Eleven's responsiveness to different guitars/pickups/tonal character? One beef I have with a lot of the modelers is like I said earlier.
    One humbucking guitar tends to sound almost exactly like the next pretty much regardless of wood type or other things that get picked up in a traditional tube or solid state amp.
    Reason I ask is my ax collection has been scaled back to each guitar being set up to sound a specific way, and it's taken me a long time to get it that way.

    For instance, my Danelectro DC59 reissue I retrofitted vintage electronics into and it sounds almost exactly like Pages through my old Marshall. It took much experimenting with various pots and pickups to get it bang on.

    I mention this guitar as the example because I've heard some modeling amps that turn that very distinctive Danny sound and make it sound more like a hollowed out Strat. So with all my other guitars going through the same numerous pickup and part swaps to get the best out of them, my requirement would be for a modeler that translated those attributes the same way as any of my "real" amps would.
    Dunno if this makes sense......I guess I mean to ask do you pickup the same things with your ear playing through the Eleven Rack between different guitar's tone or response that you know exists , playing through your traditional amps?
    Thanks!

    And yes. I only bought the Eleven Rack because it does respond like a real amp to different guitars and pickups. It has an analog system they call a "True-Z" input, which lets your guitar see a real analog impedance just like a real amp. So when you go to the SLO-100 Model, your guitar's electronics are 'seeing' the actual impedance of an SLO-100, and so on. The input impedance of an amp has a HUGE effect on the amps' feel, responsiveness, tone, etc., and also how it will react to your particular guitar. The guys over at Digi must have realized this early on in development, and they nailed it. I started realizing how important it was when I was building my first tube amp... in fact, I had plans for a while to mod a 5150 so it would have 6-10 selectable input impedances for use with different guitars....

    The coolest part is that you can manually set the True-Z on the ElevenRack, so you could use a Mesa input impedance with an SLO-100, or a Matchless input stage with a Vox amp model, which yields amp tones and feels that don't even exist in the real world. Also gives you a nice option of still using an amp model that would otherwise sound like crap on a given guitar. (You can mellow out the SLO-100 model a lot with a lower impedance setting, etc.)
    Last edited by mrjstudios; 09.06.11 at 04:21 PM.

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    See I love these discussions because it also reminds me of the same arguments that photgraphers get into, which is my other hobby...digital vs analogue, or digital vs film. I'm a tech geek and I love all the digital devolopments, they've come a long way and the convenience of them is undeniable. There will always be a big place in my heart for old tech though (tubes and film), and I tend to favor old tech, it's just so good, and digital is simply trying to replicate what we've already learned how to do with analogue. So I'm torn between both worlds, love them both.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjstudios View Post

    What I will venture to say is that it's a lot easier to sound bad on a Line6 if you don't know what your doing, than on a nice tube amp. Tubes are very forgiving in a lot of ways, where cheaper modellers (and even the best ones out there) are not.
    Good point - I had a 2112 for years (a higher end modeller at the time) and it took me a while to get it to sound great in a live context (so the sound guys told me LOL) - It tried to help by having direct knobs at the front but it didnt change the eq as dramatically as I needed sometimes. I also played it into a tube poweramp and cab - unsure how it would have gone straight into desk. But the 2112 had a sound all its own - really miss it sometimes. Would love to play with an Axe-Fx or Eleven...

    For studio stuff I play & prototype songs with Guitar Rig & Logic (especially creating several amps/chains through Logic) - can get some great sounds. I'd still want to use some kind of dedicated modeller if playing live though - PC's are fragile and tempremental (and take a while to boot up mid show as I've seen!). Last live rig was a Marshall TSL602 60W (2 x 12") with a ME-70 in front - sounded stellar all the time and easy to fiddle with.

    I also remember when I first started playing live learning about frequency ranges for different instruments etc - great players with great equipment may still sound crappy with bad stage craft or a bad sound guy.

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    That sounds pretty cool. Gotta check the Eleven Rack out in the next while.
    The guys in the YT clips nailed the sound down real well too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joegrgas View Post
    Good point - I had a 2112 for years (a higher end modeller at the time) and it took me a while to get it to sound great in a live context (so the sound guys told me LOL) - It tried to help by having direct knobs at the front but it didnt change the eq as dramatically as I needed sometimes. I also played it into a tube poweramp and cab - unsure how it would have gone straight into desk. But the 2112 had a sound all its own - really miss it sometimes. Would love to play with an Axe-Fx or Eleven...

    I also remember when I first started playing live learning about frequency ranges for different instruments etc - great players with great equipment may still sound crappy with bad stage craft or a bad sound guy.
    Haha, nice man! I've got an old 2120! I still use it for 'clean' effects, like detunes, delays, reverbs, choruses, etc. The distortion models it has tend to be awful, but the pure effects are GREAT. I use an amp or my 11Rack to get the basic tones, then I use the 2120 for the effects a lot of times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjstudios View Post
    Haha, nice man! I've got an old 2120! I still use it for 'clean' effects, like detunes, delays, reverbs, choruses, etc. The distortion models it has tend to be awful, but the pure effects are GREAT. I use an amp or my 11Rack to get the basic tones, then I use the 2120 for the effects a lot of times.
    same here pretty much, 2112 for delay, DHP-55 for d-tune chorus, ENGL preamp for tone, and couple cheap carvin legacy amps for power.
    kinda overkill, but all racked and driven by one MIDI board, works nice for me.
    I have almost pulled trigger on a 11rack MANY times, but I'm just not recording or
    playing out enough to justify it right now.
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