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  1. #1
    Atomic Punk
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    The College Scam

    What do Michael Dell, Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates and Mark Cuban have in common?

    They're all college dropouts.

    Richard Branson, Simon Cowell and Peter Jennings have in common?

    They never went to college at all.

    But today all kids are told: To succeed, you must go to college.

    Hillary Clinton tells students: "Graduates from four-year colleges earn nearly twice as much as high school graduates, an estimated $1 million more."

    We hear that from people who run colleges. And it's true. But it leaves out some important facts

    That's why I say: For many people, college is a scam.

    I spoke with Richard Vedder, author of "Going Broke by Degree: Why College Costs Too Much," and Naomi Schafer Riley, who just published "Faculty Lounges and Other Reasons Why You Won't Get the College Education You Paid For."

    Vedder explained why that million-dollar comparison is ridiculous:

    "People that go to college are different kind of people ... (more) disciplined ... smarter. They did better in high school."

    They would have made more money even if they never went to college.

    Riley says some college students don't get what they pay for because their professors have little incentive to teach.

    "You think you're paying for them to be in the classroom with you, but every hour a professor spends in the classroom, he gets paid less. The incentives are all for more research."

    The research is often on obscure topics for journals nobody reads.

    Also, lots of people not suited for higher education get pushed into it. This doesn't do them good. They feel like failures when they don't graduate. Vedder said two out of five students entering four-year programs don't have a bachelor's degree after year six.

    "Why do colleges accept (these students) in the first place?"

    Because money comes with the student — usually government-guaranteed loans.

    "There are 80,000 bartenders in the United States with bachelor's degrees," Vedder said. He says that 17 percent of baggage porters and bellhops have a college degree, 15 percent of taxi and limo drivers.


    It's hard to pay off student loans with jobs like those. These days, many students graduate with big debts.

    Entrepreneur Peter Thiel, who got rich helping to build good things like PayPal and Facebook, is so eager to wake people up to alternatives to college that he's paying students $100,000 each if they drop out of college and do something else, like start a business.

    "We're asking nothing in return other than meetings so we make sure (they) work hard, and not be in school for two years," said Jim O'Neill, who runs the foundation.

    For some reason, this upsets the left. A Slate.com writer called Thiel's grant a "nasty idea" that leads students into "halting their intellectual development ... maintaining a narrow-minded focus on getting rich."

    But Darren Zhu, a grant winner who quit Yale for the $100,000, told me, "Building a start-up and learning the sort of hardships that are associated with building a company is a much better education path."

    I agree. Much better. Zhu plans to start a biotech company.

    What puzzles is me is why the market doesn't punish colleges that don't serve their customers well. The opposite has happened: Tuitions have risen four times faster than inflation.

    "There's a lot of bad information out there," Vedder replied. "We don't know ... if (students) learned anything" during their college years.

    "Do kids learn anything at Harvard? People at Harvard tell us they do. ... They were bright when they entered Harvard, but do ... seniors know more than freshman? The literacy rate among college graduates is lower today than it was 15 or 20 year ago. It is kind of hard for people to respond in market fashion when you don't have full information."

    Despite the scam, the Obama administration plans to increase the number of students getting Pell grants by 50 percent. And even a darling of conservatives, New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie, says college is a must: "Graduating from high school is just the first step."

    We need to wake people up.

    John Stossel is host of "Stossel" on the Fox Business Network. He's the author of "Give Me a Break" and of "Myth, Lies, and Downright Stupidity."

    http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/st...lege-necessary
    "Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.” -- Gen. George S. Patton

  2. #2
    Atomic Punk
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    "Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.” -- Gen. George S. Patton

  3. #3
    carpe damn diem billy007's Avatar
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    12.11.17 @ 09:09 AM
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    I've felt this way for a long time - probably since within a few years after I graduated! College was pushed on us back then, too - "You have to go to college if you're going to succeed" - so this is not a new thing. But I definitely think it's a good message that needs to have a few more voices behind it. So many kids starting life in debt so they can go clean toilets at McDonald's? Of course, what they don't blow on college they'd probably blow on a wedding reception anyway, so it probably evens out!

  4. #4
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
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    it's not a scam.

  5. #5
    Atomic Punk edwardv's Avatar
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    12.11.17 @ 11:21 AM
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    I went to College with this guy who was there because dad wanted him to go. He was always cheating on tests and buying term papers. He used to tell me that he was going to get rich in the fitness business and that school was bullshit. He droped out after the second year. Fast forward 30 years and I come accross his name on Google. Seems he
    hooked up with the guy that invented the BOWFLEX machine and is involved with its production thru his own company. I gave him a call and talked with him it was kind of a mini Bill Gates story to itself. Bottom line its all about being in the right place at the right time with an idea and lots of long hours but you have to start young.
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  6. #6
    Atomic Punk ziggysmalls's Avatar
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    Honestly outside of very technical positions or ones that deal with complex numbers, why do you require 4 years at a college or university? Yes I would love it for my doctor to go to med school or the engineer who designed my brakes to have a few degrees. Look at corporate America (or Canada) and do any of them actually require you to have studied at a University? Project Management? If you are not organized no amount of classroom experience is going to assist you. Sales and Marketing? Unless you are able to communicate verbally you will not make it in Sales. How many car salesmen have S&M degrees? IT or programming? Shit you do not need four years of college for that. You need practical experience plus the ability to read documentation. You can't learn troubleshooting in a school.

    Most jobs out there can be prepped by an associates degree. We have about 10 people with MBA's at our company making about 35k a year. My ex makes double that and attended university for about 30 minutes and is their manager. My co-worker's wife and her sister both graduated with Social Services degrees. Put their dad in hock for 200k. One is a part time maid and the other works at Starbucks.

    I understand that some positions demand extra schooling however I think our countries would survive if they went back to apprenticeships for various positions. It would surely have a better ROI than sending kids to school for bullshit degrees.

  7. #7
    Gird your loins Daisy Hill's Avatar
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    12.11.17 @ 11:06 AM
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    I think it is unfair to use those examples...Gates, Dell, Zuckerberg? they all had unique talents and the pursuit of those talents offered them more opportunity than a college education.

    most people would benefit from some kind of training after high school sonce so many district seem to be cutting out their vocational programs,

    but the idea of going to college because you don't know what else to do and funds are available is a problem...it kind of creates a college welfare program

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    She was warned. She was given an explanation. Nevertheless, she persisted.

  8. #8
    Hang 'Em High sickman's Avatar
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    It all depends on what you major in. If you major in something that you can actually use once out of college, than more power to you.
    I used to jog but the ice cubes kept falling out of my glass.

  9. #9
    Baluchitherium Mikey Metalhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sickman View Post
    It all depends on what you major in. If you major in something that you can actually use once out of college, than more power to you.
    I agree, it just all depends, and yes, depends more than it used too.
    However, my daughter got a teaching degree... with her grade point average, got a job a week after graduation with a hell of a salary compared to my first job. If you have followed teaching jobs lately, its a pretty big thing she got the exact job in the exact location she wanted.

    My degree is in EET and I was making more in computers when I graduated then I could with electrical eng... but... What I got from it was still well worth it, I learned how to learn... something I never got in highschool.
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  10. #10
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ziggysmalls View Post
    Honestly outside of very technical positions or ones that deal with complex numbers, why do you require 4 years at a college or university? Yes I would love it for my doctor to go to med school or the engineer who designed my brakes to have a few degrees. Look at corporate America (or Canada) and do any of them actually require you to have studied at a University? Project Management? If you are not organized no amount of classroom experience is going to assist you. Sales and Marketing? Unless you are able to communicate verbally you will not make it in Sales. How many car salesmen have S&M degrees? IT or programming? Shit you do not need four years of college for that. You need practical experience plus the ability to read documentation. You can't learn troubleshooting in a school.

    Most jobs out there can be prepped by an associates degree. We have about 10 people with MBA's at our company making about 35k a year. My ex makes double that and attended university for about 30 minutes and is their manager. My co-worker's wife and her sister both graduated with Social Services degrees. Put their dad in hock for 200k. One is a part time maid and the other works at Starbucks.

    I understand that some positions demand extra schooling however I think our countries would survive if they went back to apprenticeships for various positions. It would surely have a better ROI than sending kids to school for bullshit degrees.
    i guess it depends on how you want to look at a college education. It's not the end, it's more of the middle. I've been studying something ever since. Some of it useful only at the time, some still useful. I graduated with an Ecnomics degree and don't use it all the time but use it sometimes. It really is more about teaching you about how to learn than anything else. An educated society is a better one. Do some get little out of it? Sure, for them its almost worthless. For most it's very useful and hardly a scam.

  11. #11
    Wear the fox hat... Filthy 150's Avatar
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    I know I must have told this story on here before but I will again.

    Back when I was in college an athlete (star football player) got in an argument with the professor of the english class we were taking because he was not doing the work, thus not passing...which made him inelligible to play football. I believe his argument was 'just pass me...I ain't here to learn no english, I'm here to play football!' The prof. calmly told him that he would do no such thing. Colleges exist to make better human beings...better educated in specific areas of course, but better overall. If you want to be trained in one specific area only, trade schools are what you need.

    Somewhere in the past the concept of what a college degree is has been misunderstood. It isn't necessarily a ticket to a higher paying job. It CAN work that way and alot of times it does. But this is also part of the problem with society right now.
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  12. #12
    Sinner's Swing!
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    I went to pharmacy school and I don't think it was a waste. If you are going to get a degree required to get a professional license (doctor, nurse, lawyer, pharmacist, etc.) it's certainly not a waste.

    Going 4-5 years and getting an MBA or liberal arts degree, it could be a waste, depends on the person.

  13. #13
    Baluchitherium Mikey Metalhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Filthy 150 View Post
    I know I must have told this story on here before but I will again.

    Back when I was in college an athlete (star football player) got in an argument with the professor of the english class we were taking because he was not doing the work, thus not passing...which made him inelligible to play football. I believe his argument was 'just pass me...I ain't here to learn no english, I'm here to play football!' The prof. calmly told him that he would do no such thing. Colleges exist to make better human beings...better educated in specific areas of course, but better overall. If you want to be trained in one specific area only, trade schools are what you need.

    Somewhere in the past the concept of what a college degree is has been misunderstood. It isn't necessarily a ticket to a higher paying job. It CAN work that way and alot of times it does. But this is also part of the problem with society right now.
    I agree 100%.... and any secondary schooling is good as far as I am concerned... and some will not even need that...

    and regardless how much it helps your career, to dedicate yourself for 4 years is an accomplishment that still means something to employers and something to be very proud of

    but too many youngsters want the easy way out.. things handed to them
    Last edited by Mikey Metalhead; 07.08.11 at 08:57 AM.
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  14. #14
    Atomic Punk ziggysmalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel View Post
    I went to pharmacy school and I don't think it was a waste. If you are going to get a degree required to get a professional license (doctor, nurse, lawyer, pharmacist, etc.) it's certainly not a waste.

    Going 4-5 years and getting an MBA or liberal arts degree, it could be a waste, depends on the person.
    No issues with professional degrees as you stated. I am simply stating that being in debt for 200k is not worth a liberal arts degree. It may not be worth that and more for an MBA when you are going to be making 35k a year.

    I know having a diploma is a status symbol but knowledge isn't a piece of paper. It's what you have inside your head. Sure there is the commitment but you have enlisted personnel signing up for six years of advance programs in the military. Putting your life on the line for six years should mean just as much as a kid going to school for four don't you think?

  15. #15
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ziggysmalls View Post
    No issues with professional degrees as you stated. I am simply stating that being in debt for 200k is not worth a liberal arts degree. It may not be worth that and more for an MBA when you are going to be making 35k a year.

    I know having a diploma is a status symbol but knowledge isn't a piece of paper. It's what you have inside your head. Sure there is the commitment but you have enlisted personnel signing up for six years of advance programs in the military. Putting your life on the line for six years should mean just as much as a kid going to school for four don't you think?
    what's the average tuition at a college in your state?

 

 

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