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    Atomic Punk Wruff_ajax's Avatar
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    Default Third Secret of Fatima

    Some subject matter that I've been studying lately which has raised more questions than answers. I though maybe some Catholic linkers or any of you familiar with the subject might give some input.

    For those not too familiar, here's some background on this subject and the controversy which surrounds the Third Secret...

    The Three Secrets of Fátima consist of a series of visions and prophecies allegedly given by an apparition of the Blessed Virgin Mary to three young Portuguese shepherds, Lúcia Santos and her cousins Jacinta and Francisco Marto, starting on 13 May 1917. The three children claimed to have been visited by a Marian apparition six times between May and October 1917. The apparition is now popularly known as Our Lady of Fátima.

    According to the official, orthodox interpretation, the three secrets involve; Hell, World War I and World War II, and the shooting of Pope John Paul II.

    On 13 July 1917, around noon, the lady is said to have entrusted the children with three secrets. Two of the secrets were revealed in 1941 in a document written by Lúcia, at the request of José da Silva, Bishop of Leiria, to assist with the publication of a new edition of a book on Jacinta. When asked by the Bishop of Leiria in 1943 to reveal the third secret, Lúcia struggled for a short period, being "not yet convinced that God had clearly authorized her to act." However, in October 1943 the bishop of Leiria ordered her to put it in writing. Lucia then wrote the secret down and sealed it in an envelope not to be opened until 1960, when "it will appear clearer." The text of the third secret was officially released by Pope John Paul II in 2000, although some claim that it was not the entire secret revealed by Lucia, despite repeated assertions from the Vatican to the contrary.


    Here's the secrets...

    First secret

    The first secret was a vision of Hell:

    Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent. This vision lasted but an instant. How can we ever be grateful enough to our kind heavenly Mother, who had already prepared us by promising, in the first Apparition, to take us to heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of fear and terror.

    Second secret

    The second secret was a statement that World War I would end and goes on to predict another war, World War II during the reign of Pope Pius XI, should men continue offending God and should Russia not convert. The second half requests that Russia be consecrated to the Immaculate Heart:

    "You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end: but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the Pontificate of Pope Pius XI. When you see a night illumined by an unknown light*, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father. To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the Consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of reparation on the First Saturdays. If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world."


    Third secret (Where the controversy begins)....

    The third part of the secret was written down "by order of His Excellency the Bishop of Leiria and the Most Holy Mother" on 3 January 1944. In 1943, Lúcia fell ill with influenza and pleurisy, which had killed her cousins. For several months, she was sure she was going to die. Bishop Silva, visiting her on 15 September 1943 while she was bed-ridden, first suggested that she write the third secret down to ensure that it would be recorded in the event of her death. Lucia was hesitant to do so, however. Finally, in mid-October, Bishop Silva sent her a letter containing a direct order to record the secret, and Lúcia obeyed. In June 1944, the sealed envelope containing the third secret was delivered to Silva, where it stayed until 1957, when it was finally delivered to Rome.

    It was announced by Cardinal Sodano on 13 May 2000, 83 years after the first apparition of the Lady to the children in the Cova da Iria, that the Third Secret would finally be released. In his announcement, Cardinal Sodano implied that the secret was about the persecution of Christians in the 20th century that culminated in the failed assassination attempt on Pope John Paul II on 13 May 1981.

    The text of the Third Secret was published on 26 June 2000:

    "J.M.J.

    The third part of the secret revealed at the Cova da Iria-Fátima, on 13 May 1917.

    I write in obedience to you, my God, who command me to do so through his Excellency the Bishop of Leiria and through your Most Holy Mother and mine.

    After the two parts which I have already explained, at the left of Our Lady and a little above, we saw an Angel with a flaming sword in his left hand; flashing, it gave out flames that looked as though they would set the world on fire; but they died out in contact with the splendour that Our Lady radiated towards him from her right hand: pointing to the earth with his right hand, the Angel cried out in a loud voice: 'Penance, Penance, Penance!'. And we saw in an immense light that is God: 'something similar to how people appear in a mirror when they pass in front of it' a Bishop dressed in White 'we had the impression that it was the Holy Father'. Other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious going up a steep mountain, at the top of which there was a big Cross of rough-hewn trunks as of a cork-tree with the bark; before reaching there the Holy Father passed through a big city half in ruins and half trembling with halting step, afflicted with pain and sorrow, he prayed for the souls of the corpses he met on his way; having reached the top of the mountain, on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions. Beneath the two arms of the Cross there were two Angels each with a crystal aspersorium in his hand, in which they gathered up the blood of the Martyrs and with it sprinkled the souls that were making their way to God.

    Tuy-3-1-1944."

    Along with the text of the secret, then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, (now Pope Benedict XVI), published a theological commentary, in which he states that:

    "A careful reading of the text of the so-called third 'secret' of Fatima ... will probably prove disappointing or surprising after all the speculation it has stirred. No great mystery is revealed; nor is the future unveiled."



    The Holy See withheld the Third Secret until 26 June 2000, despite Lúcia's declaration that it should be released to the public at the time of her death or 1960, whichever comes first. Some sources, including Canon Barthas and Cardinal Ottaviani, said that Lúcia insisted to them it must be released by 1960, saying that, "by that time, it will be more clearly understood", and, "because the Blessed Virgin wishes it so."
    When 1960 arrived, rather than releasing the Third Secret, the Vatican published an official press release stating that it was "most probable the Secret would remain, forever, under absolute seal."


    Some high ranking church officials who have seen the actual third secret (single sheet of paper written in the form of the first two) say that the church kept the true secret hidden from public because it told of the Antichrist and Satan's infiltration of the church at the highest levels, the abomination of desolation, and the End Times.
    People also believe that the Sister Lucia seen since around 1960 until her death in 2005 was an imposter. That the real Sister Lucia died before 1960 or was even killed then to keep the true secret from being revealed.


    Look at the pre-1960 Lucia and the post-1960.

    Are they the same person?









    Any opinions about what's going on here?
    Last edited by Wruff_ajax; 06.07.11 at 10:39 AM.
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    Little Dreamer
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    Did the Blessed Virgin reveal any 2011 Van Halen tour dates?

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    Being Catholic and acknowledging the power-hungry within the Vatican, I can believe it hasnt been told in full and that some things were kept under wraps. I can even believe that she may have been killed because early Lucia and later Lucia dont look the same... that is unless someone paid for her to have extensive cosmetic dental work.

    In my book, if someone as blessed as this woman is believed to be says reveal the secrets at my death they they should be revealed. But then, she's female and the Vatican has no respect for females in any shape or form either.
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    Hot For Teacher drummr's Avatar
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    What an odd topic to appear here on the Van Halen forums. I am not a practicing Catholic so I don't really keep up with stories like this, but this post brings back memories of my mom talking about this stuff and as a child I always found it quite intriguing.

    Just think it's funny that of all places that I would be reminded of this it would be here on the vhlinks.: )

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    Atomic Punk Wruff_ajax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stilleddiesangel View Post
    Being Catholic and acknowledging the power-hungry within the Vatican, I can believe it hasnt been told in full and that some things were kept under wraps. I can even believe that she may have been killed because early Lucia and later Lucia dont look the same... that is unless someone paid for her to have extensive cosmetic dental work.

    In my book, if someone as blessed as this woman is believed to be says reveal the secrets at my death they they should be revealed. But then, she's female and the Vatican has no respect for females in any shape or form either.
    Agreed. And Lucia getting major dental work and plastic surgery involving the restructuring of the bone structure and musculature of her face seems extremely unlikely. These are clearly two different people.


    Interesting analysis I read today...

    Two Sister Lucys of Fatima?
    Marian T. Horvat, Ph.D.


    I recently came upon some seldom seen pictures of Sister Lucy of Fatima, who was born in 1907. In the first photo below left, she is visiting the Chapel of the Apparition in Fatima. She looks like a nun in her early 30s, but the Fatima Archives report the date of the visit as 1946, so she would be 39-years-old. In the second photo, she poses near a statue of the Immaculate Heart of Mary sculpted for the Chapel of the Apparitions. She appears older in this picture, but since she still wears the habit of the Sisters of St. Dorothy, at most she could be age 41, since she left that Order in 1948 to become a Carmelite in the Convent in Coimbra, Portugal.

    At left, Sister Lucy at the Chapel of the Apparitions in 1946;
    at right, viewing a statue of Our Lady for the Chapel

    Sister Lucy at age 10, and around age 40


    In these photos, one can see in Sister Lucy some traces of the child Lucy who was favored with the visit of the Mother of God at age 10 in 1917.
    The same flat face, the same chin, the same thick lips, the same broad nose and small eyes under heavy brows that make a straight line separating the eyes from the forehead. One has no difficulty believing that these pictures of Sister Lucy are, in fact, of the same person as the child Lucia de Santos.

    Having recently carefully examined these pictures of Sister Lucy, I was truly taken aback to see a photo representing Sister Lucy published in the March 2006 issue of Inside the Vatican. The caption reads, “Here, a rare photo of her as a young nun.” (below right)
    This nun is dressed in a Carmelite habit; therefore, she would have to be at the very least 41-years-old since Sister Lucy only entered the Carmel in 1948 at age 41. My inquiry to Inside the Vatican about the exact age of Sister Lucy in this photo still has not received a response. Therefore, one can suppose that she is in her 40s.

    The first point that catches one’s attention is the difference of age of both persons. At left above Sister Lucy I is at an age that cannot be older than 41. At right above is Sister Lucy II, at an age that cannot be younger than 41. However, the person on the left looks older than the one on the right. It is difficult to imagine that with a few years of difference, the suffering somber face of the Dorothean Sister at left could have changed into the cheerful, positive countenance of the young Carmelite at right.

    But the age is not the only point of discrepancy.

    - Analyzing the faces, one can see that Sister Lucy I has an oval face with high cheekbones and a concave chin; Sister Lucy II has a squarer face and jaw.
    - The lips of Sister Lucy I are thick and generous; the lips of Sister Lucy II are very thin and tight.
    - When Sister Lucy I smiles, below left, one can see that the mouth forms the shape of a U with the edges pointing upward. When Sister Lucy II smiles, the edges of the lips point downward in the shape of an upside-down U.
    - The nose of Sister Lucy I is broad. The nose of Sister Lucy II is longer and more narrow, with a rounding curve that turns under at its tip forming a lobe, as can be seen above right.
    - Sister Lucy I has small eyes that normally squint. Very little of the white of the eyes appears. Sister Lucy II has large, bulging eyes with a good amount of white appearing.
    - The eyebrows of Sister Lucy I are straight and very heavy from one end to the other, coming together closely in the middle of her forehead. Sister Lucy II has lighter arched eyebrows that taper off in width at the ends. It is clear that there is a large space over her nose without any eyebrows. This notorious difference between the brows of the two persons is slightly disguised by the use of large glasses.


    When Sister Lucy I smiles her mouth forms a U. When Sister Lucy II smiles her mouth forms an inverted U


    These are the physical features that, as far as I can judge, are different in the two persons.

    The appearance of glasses on Sister Lucy II also raises a question. The glasses of Sister Lucy II seem to have thick lenses, which speaks of nearsightedness. However, Sister Lucy I never appeared with glasses up to her 40s. It is worth considering that most serious cases of nearsightedness show up before this age. Furthermore, if one observes the pictures of the down-to-earth peasant family of Sister Lucy I, there is no one using eyeglasses. It would not seem to be a problem that runs in the family.

    One could also consider the postures and gestures of the two Lucys. Sister Lucy I stands in a collected way, her hands in a discrete gesture. Her posture and demeanor are quite composed, as befitting a religious woman.

    The pose of Sister Lucy II as a young nun is in many senses different. She rests her face on her hand as if she were in a classroom listening to a lecture. Her somewhat artificial air catches one’s attention. Her wrists are deliberately showing, as well as a small bit of her hair at the top and side of the habit, more in keeping with the manner of a progressivist nun, clashing with the extreme discretion of Sister Lucy I.

    Sister Lucy II’s glasses are very modern in style for a nun of the 1950s. One can certainly say that it reflects a person sensitive to the appeals of fashion. Again, an attitude foreign to Sister Lucy I.

    These are the comparisons I would like to offer to my reader. My conclusion is simple: the face, the features, the gestures, and the spirit of the two Sister Lucys are dissimilar. It would seem, then, that we are looking at two different persons.

    If this is true, we would have been duped by some impostor who was presented as the authentic witness of the visions of Our Lady.

    In this case, some hypothetical questions arise. What happened to the true Sister Lucy? When was the replacement made? And more importantly, why was such an exchange necessary?

    Perhaps if we ask the classical question – Qui bono? [Who benefits?] – the answer emerges. The retirement of Sister Lucy I and introduction of Sister Lucy II before 1960, the year the secret was to have been revealed, would prevent the true witness from telling the world the full content of the Third Secret. This could only have been to the benefit of the progressivist wing that is dominating the Church in our days.
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    Atomic Punk stilleddiesangel's Avatar
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    I absolutely agree. And I also believe that the Catholic Church is ruthless when it wants to protect itself from anything which may question it's total authority. With the Fatima children and Bernadette Soubirous, they had little patience for a very long time with the fact that these apparitions happened rarely to boys but more often girls. If Lucia could in fact, give witness to something that caused the Vatican any embarrassment or major issues, she would be silenced without remorse.

    Throughout the centuries, women have been treated as second class within the Church, going as far in it's time to paint Magdelene as a prostitute, that coming from an edict of one of the early Pope's and only being rectified in the 60's. There is no place for women of higher stature than men with in the structure of this church whatsoever.

    Although fiction, and I think a grand movie, Stigmata does reveal the true nature of the church in it's complete strive to protect itself. The truth, what ever that may be in this case, doesn't matter, as long as the divinity of the Roman Catholic Church and it's power and riches remains intact. Many believe there is great evil working within the Vatican... I dont discount that theory at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stilleddiesangel View Post
    I absolutely agree. And I also believe that the Catholic Church is ruthless when it wants to protect itself from anything which may question it's total authority.

    Many believe there is great evil working within the Vatican... I dont discount that theory at all.
    Agreed.

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    They look like the same person to me. You have to consider that A) the two side by sides are taken at completely different angles and B) different lighting conditions and C) different ages and D) different quality cameras. You ever look at a picture taken of you and go "whoah, I look terrible" but the next picture looks better? Kind of the same thing. This "Phd's" analysis is pretty poor when you closely examine it. His first point about her face being "oval shaped" is not because of bone structure, it's because her face is framed in by the oval habit. Look at the "child" picture then look at the color photo from later in the series. Same person. Square jaw.

    As for the "secrets," I'm a lifelong Catholic, but I don't put much weight into these types of accounts. To me, if God (or Mary) really wanted to send a messge, He (or She) would not do so in such vague terms. He knows that humans are fallible, so why give a vague description and hold a "secret" from the world....but entrust it into three small children?

    It just doesn't pass the 21st century sniff test. Besides, if it were released in 1960, it wouldn't have been any clearer than it is today. How would you read a papal assassination attempt from that in 1960? Sounds a lot like Nostradamus bullshit to me. Give people something nice and vague, then watch the idiots a century later drool over "prophecy" and stretch to make associations well after the fact.

    If the third secret was indeed about the Antichrist infiltrating the Vatican, then I guess we should all be happy that paradise is just around the corner, right?
    CNN may think my opinion matters, but you shouldn't.

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    Atomic Punk LLFHS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wruff_ajax View Post




    Any opinions about what's going on here?
    Possibly......

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsbll4 View Post


    It just doesn't pass the 21st century sniff test.
    Any of the world's faiths wouldnt pass the 21st century sniff test.
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    Well fuck it then. I'm off to Hedonism II!!!
    CNN may think my opinion matters, but you shouldn't.

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    Sorry but the pictures are the same person.
    You can tell she had her over bite corrected and a bit of dental work done,and than the visible weight gain in the second photo.

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    If there was dental work done then they also changed the shape of the teeth and filed them down to be shorter

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    Sinner's Swing! VH122's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daisy Hill View Post
    If there was dental work done then they also changed the shape of the teeth and filed them down to be shorter
    In Michigan we call them there teeth shapers braces.
    We Catholics are allowed and encouraged to see doctors and dentists regularly.

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    Atomic Punk stilleddiesangel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VH122 View Post
    In Michigan we call them there teeth shapers braces.
    We Catholics are allowed and encouraged to see doctors and dentists regularly.
    She must have had whole new teeth then cos hers were almost horselike and these second ones are stumpy. Bracers dont shorten the length of the teeth, just straiten them and even then they did a shit job cos theyre gappy in the second one too.

    It aint the same woman!
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