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  1. #1
    Atomic Punk
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    Default ‘67 borders in Israel

    WASHINGTON — President Obama, seeking to capture a moment of epochal change in the Arab world, began a new effort on Thursday to break the stalemate in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, setting out a new starting point for negotiations on the region’s most intractable problem.

    A day before the arrival in Washington of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel, Mr. Obama declared that the prevailing borders before the 1967 Arab-Israeli war — adjusted to some degree to account for Israeli settlements in the West Bank — should be the basis of a deal. While the 1967 borders have long been viewed as the foundation for a peace agreement,

    Mr. Obama’s formula of land swaps to compensate for disputed territory created a new benchmark for a diplomatic solution.

    Mr. Obama’s statement represented a subtle, but significant shift, in American policy. And it thrust him back into the region’s most nettlesome dispute at a time when conditions would seem to make reaching a deal especially difficult.

    The Israeli government immediately protested, saying that for Israel to return to its pre-1967 borders would leave it “indefensible.” Mr. Netanyahu held an angry phone conversation with Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton on Thursday before the speech, officials said, in which he demanded that the president’s reference to 1967 borders be cut.

    Israeli officials continued to lobby the administration until right before Mr. Obama arrived at the State Department for the address. White House officials said he did not alter anything under Israeli pressure, though the president made changes in the text that delayed his appearance by 35 minutes.

    Mr. Obama’s reference to Israel’s borders came toward the end of a somber, 45-minute address that sought to articulate an overarching framework for the disparate American responses to the Arab Spring, which has taken a dark turn as the euphoria of popular revolutions in Tunisia and Egypt has given way to violent crackdowns in Bahrain and Syria, a civil war in Libya and political stalemate in Yemen.

    The president offered a blunt critique of Arab governments and, without promising any changes in policy to confront repressive ones more aggressively, sought to assure protesters that they were squarely aligned with democratic American values in a region where the strategic interests of the United States have routinely trumped its values.

    Those issues are delicate enough, but the diplomatic row with Israel highlighted the acute sensitivities that Mr. Obama faces as he seeks to link the changes in the Middle East with the conflict at the region’s heart.

    “At a time when the people of the Middle East and North Africa are casting off the burdens of the past, the drive for a lasting peace that ends the conflict and resolves all claims is more urgent than ever,” he said.

    At one level, by putting the United States on record as supporting the 1967 borders as the starting point for negotiations over a Palestinian state, Mr. Obama was simply endorsing reality: Middle East analysts say a new state would inevitably be drawn on the basis of Israel’s boundaries before the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, which created the contours of today’s Middle East.

    Israel’s victory over Egypt and other Arab neighbors in that war expanded its control over territory in the West Bank and Gaza inhabited by millions of Palestinians, creating a greater Israel — including all of the capital, Jerusalem — but one that oversees a resentful occupied population.

    Mr. Obama also noted that Israel and the Palestinians would have to swap territory on either side of that border to account for large Jewish settlements that have taken root in the West Bank since 1967.

    But the shift moves the United States a step closer to the position of the Palestinians, and is viewed as vital to them because it means the Americans implicitly back their view that new Israeli settlement construction will have to be reversed, or compensated for, in talks over the borders for a new Palestinian state.

    Some analysts said Mr. Obama’s shift was less strategic than tactical, seeking to lure the Palestinians back to the negotiating table, as a way of heading off their campaign to seek international recognition of a Palestinian state at the United Nations General Assembly in September.
    "Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.” -- Gen. George S. Patton

  2. #2
    Atomic Punk
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    12.11.17 @ 04:37 PM
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    KISS rock star, Israeli-born Gene Simmons, tells the CNBC Christian network that U.S. President Barack Obama “has no idea of what the world is like." He also calls the United Nations “the most pathetic body on the face of the earth.”



    Jane Wells interviewed Simmons on CNBC and asked him what he thinks of President Obama, for whom Simmons voted and now regrets it. He answered, “If you have never been to the moon, you can’t issue policy about the moon. For the president to be sitting in Washington D.C. and saying, ‘Go back to your ‘67 borders in Israel' – how abut you live there and try to defend an indefensible border – nine miles wide?"

    “On one side, you got hundreds of millions of people who hate your guts. On the other side you got the Mediterranean. Unless you control the Golan Heights, it is an indefensible position. it is a nice idea, [but] when you grow up, you find out that life is not the way you imagine it.

    “President Obama means well - I think he actually is a good guy, He has no idea of what the world is like because he does not have to live there."

    Simmons also told the interviewer that “women are much brighter than we are. You should have thousands of babies.”

    He was born in Israel in 1949 as Chaim Witz and moved with his family to New York when at the age of eight. His Polish mother survived the Holocaust.

    He has written about the United States, "I wasn't born here. But I have a love for this country and its people that knows no bounds. I will forever be grateful to America for going into World War II, when it had nothing to gain, in a country that was far away... and rescued my mother from the Nazi German concentration camps. She is alive and I am alive because of America. And, if you have a problem with America, you have a problem with me.”
    "Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.” -- Gen. George S. Patton

  3. #3
    Master Bluesman Elwood P.'s Avatar
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    12.12.17 @ 10:03 PM
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    Get 'em Gene!
    "I'm the opposite of Bill Cosby. Diamond Dave always gets your approval." (DLR)

    "Kids, just say NO to marriage". (Al Bundy)

    Rawhide in "A"

    OAA

  4. #4
    Atomic Punk ziggysmalls's Avatar
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    12.12.17 @ 08:24 AM
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    Last time I checked, the country that wins a war with a bordering state can determine whether or not to annex parts of it to their country. How do you think we got the Southwest? Shouldn't Mexico have the right to say "give us our land back?" How about the Native Americans? Probably every country has the right to reclaim some borders that were lost in various skirmishes. Anyway I agree with Gene on this one. Can't believe I said that either.

  5. #5
    Atomic Punk edwardv's Avatar
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    12.12.17 @ 05:40 PM
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    Axxman wrote a month or so ago that we should leave Iraq and Afaganastan but leave written warnings carved in granite that if we ever have to come back again we will destroy every living thing. I think Isreal should do the same thing call the Arabs and Obamas bluff and agree to pull back the few miles or so in question with the same caveat and WW3 will erupt within a year. Put this on the stones. We tried to coexist with you since being attacked in 1967. That was a war we did not start but it was meant to push us into the sea. We have wanted to live here in peace since the time of Moses. However, if you ever again commit any act of terror or war against Isreal we will destroy all of you and your shrines too.
    EVH 1979: Well, actually it's not much of a vacation, because we run everything ourselves. We design our own album cover, we have to be in the office every day to sign checks - the whole corporation revolves around us. Nothing can be done without our approval. We even have photo approval.

  6. #6
    Atomic Punk
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    Washington (CNN) -- President Barack Obama said Sunday that any controversy over his remarks last week that Israel-Palestinian negotiations should start from pre-1967 borders and include land swaps was "not based in substance."

    In his first speech as president to the main American-Israeli advocacy group, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), Obama sought to reassure the vital U.S. Jewish lobby of his administration's commitment to Israel's security while also making clear his desire to kick-start the stalled Israeli-Palestinian peace talks at a time when the entire Middle East landscape is changing amid the so-called Arab Spring demonstrations.

    Obama acknowledged that he expected some controversy from his call last Thursday for negotiations to be based on border demarcations from before the six-day war of 1967, in which Israel seized the West Bank, Gaza Strip and other territory.

    However, he said, his policy on the border issue "means that the parties themselves -- Israelis and Palestinians -- will negotiate a border that is different than the one that existed on June 4, 1967," the eve of the war. Those negotiations will involve "mutually agreed-upon" land swaps to deal with changing conditions of recent decades, he said.

    "That's what mutually agreed-upon swaps means. It is a well-known formula to all who have worked on this issue for a generation," Obama said to applause. "It allows the parties themselves to account for the changes that have taken place over the last 44 years," including the new demographic realities on the ground and the needs of both sides.

    His proposal contained "nothing particularly original," he said, adding that "this basic framework for negotiations has long been the basis for discussions among the parties, including previous U.S. administrations."

    "If there is a controversy, then, it's not based in substance," Obama said.

    The Thursday remarks drew a chilly response from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who used a joint appearance with Obama on Friday to reject any possibility that Israel could return to its pre-1967 borders. Netanyahu said such borders would be "indefensible" and noted that major Israeli population centers now lie outside them.

    On Sunday, a statement by Netanyahu responding to Obama's AIPAC speech was more conciliatory, saying: "I share the president's will to promote peace and I value his current and past efforts to achieve this goal."

    "I am determined to act together with President Obama in order to find ways to resume the negotiations for peace," Netanyahu's statement said. "Peace is a vital need for all of us."

    Maen Areikat, the chief Palestinian representative to the United States, told CNN on Sunday that his Palestine Liberation Organization also welcomed the U.S. support for restarting the peace talks.

    At the same time, Areikat called for concrete steps by Israel that showed "they are genuine and sincere about the ending the conflict with us," instead of what he labeled "nationalist, ideological" slogans and steps such as continuing to expand housing settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

    In his speech Sunday, Obama repeated a line from Thursday that the "status quo" in the Israel-Palestinian conflict is unsustainable. He listed a series of reasons why conditions on the ground dictated the need for a revitalized peace effort now.

    "First, the number of Palestinians living west of the Jordan River is growing rapidly and fundamentally reshaping the demographic realities of both Israel and the Palestinian Territories," Obama said. "This will make it harder and harder -- without a peace deal -- to maintain Israel as both a Jewish state and a democratic state."

    He also cited the increasing difficulty for Israel to defend itself against regional enemies, and the "new generation" of Arabs reshaping the entire region through the protest movement that already has toppled governments in Tunisia and Egypt.

    "A just and lasting peace can no longer be forged with one or two Arab leaders. Going forward, millions of Arab citizens have to see that peace is possible for that peace to be sustained," Obama said, adding that a growing regional and international impatience with the Israel-Palestinian peace process is leading some to look for other options, such as a U.N. resolution in September to recognize an independent Palestinian state.

    Even though such a U.N. General Assembly resolution would be non-binding, Obama told the AIPAC meeting that the United States would oppose any effort to isolate Israel in international forums.

    He also repeated U.S. criticism of Hamas, the Palestinian group that governs the Gaza Strip and is considered a terrorist organization by Washington.

    Hamas and the other main Palestinian group, the Fatah party of Mahmoud Abbas that heads the governing authority in the West Bank, agreed on May 4 to work together to set up unifying elections in May 2012.

    Areikat said that under the agreement, Fatah would continue to negotiate on behalf of the Palestinians until they can elect their own leaders and representatives next year.

    "Hopefully, come May 2012, the Palestinian people will be able to choose those people who are committed to negotiating a peaceful resolution with Israel," Areikat said, conceding that Hamas would be a voice in any Palestinian unity government that emerges from next year's vote.

    Obama said Israel cannot be expected to negotiate with Hamas until it renounces violence and recognizes Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state. The audience applauded loudly when Obama called for Hamas to release Gilad Shalit, an Israeli soldier captured five years ago.

    In response, Hamas Spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri told CNN that the U.S. government has "a clear preference for Israel" at the expense of freedom for the Palestinian people and their right to establish a sovereign state.

    In the United States, political opponents criticized Obama for what they described as harming Israel's negotiating position with the Palestinians.

    Republican presidential hopeful Newt Gingrich labeled the Obama policy a "disaster" and "extraordinarily dangerous" in an appearance Sunday on the CBS program "Face the Nation."

    "A president who can't control his own border probably shouldn't lecture Israel about their border," Gingrich said.

    While a few boos and groans were heard in the AIPAC crowd when Obama raised the border issue Sunday, he received consistent applause throughout the speech and a vigorous standing ovation at the end.

    In Israel, about 150 right-wing activists protested Sunday against Obama's policy in front of the American Embassy in Tel Aviv, with some bearing slogans that declared: "Obama, Israelis are not willing to commit suicide."
    Last edited by voivod; 05.23.11 at 07:06 AM.
    "Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.” -- Gen. George S. Patton

  7. #7
    Hang 'Em High sickman's Avatar
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    Why not tell Jordan to fork over some land to the Palestinians. They've got a lot more to give than Israel. The president should just keep out of it, not just Obama but any US president. The job of the US president should be to back whatever the fuck it is that Israel wants to do in keeping it's current border and defending themselves against the terrorist attacks they receive daily.
    I used to jog but the ice cubes kept falling out of my glass.

  8. #8
    Atomic Punk Wruff_ajax's Avatar
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    Here we go again. Only this time with some Obama antisemitism sprinkled in. This will bear no good fruit.
    _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_

  9. #9
    Good Enough pal1800's Avatar
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    Well, I am confused because so many Jews supported and still support Obama. Maybe they are just Liberal first and Jewish second. That's my best guess.

  10. #10
    Sinner's Swing! ED-A-HOLIC's Avatar
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    12.05.17 @ 03:49 PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wruff_ajax View Post
    Here we go again. Only this time with some Obama antisemitism sprinkled in. This will bear no good fruit.
    agreed!
    "I could call it anything, but the only word I can think of is Brown. It's just a warm sound. Warm, big, majestic" - Eddie Van Halen on his Tone

    "Van Halen is definitely a ladies band, and I´ve got the Polaroids to prove it". - David Lee Roth

    WOLFGANG did the IMPOSSIBLE, he brought back VAN HALEN, DEAL WITH IT.

  11. #11
    Atomic Punk Little Dreamer's Avatar
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    Jewish doesn't mean Israeli or pro-Israel. Israel has its best interest at heart. But they are not always the same as the interest of Jewish people not living in Israel. It's not like supporting a sports team. And I don't get the part of Obama's antisemistism?? Hello, his main adviser is David Axelrod and former chief of staff Rahm Emmanuel. What a jew hater, gee!

    A lot of jews have been against colonization for decades in other countries. America itself was created as a rejection of colonialism. So it's logical those same jews would be against colonization in Israel. It's not because your own people do something bad that it suddenly becomes good.
    Little Dreamer

  12. #12
    Atomic Punk Little Dreamer's Avatar
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    And I think a lot of "liberal" jews remember one thing: blacks, or even arabs for that matter, are not the ones who killed the most jews. Their damage to the jewish people is minuscule in comparaison to what we have suffered from white christians throughout history. Fact. So maybe this explains why there are so many liberal jews. Including yours truly.
    Little Dreamer

  13. #13
    Atomic Punk lovemachine97(Version 2)'s Avatar
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    Are these people prepared to call out Clinton and Bush as well as Obama, because this was their policy as well?

    I suppose I shouldn't be surprised--Obama's "change" continues to be recycling previous failed policies.

  14. #14
    Atomic Punk Wruff_ajax's Avatar
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    Default Obama/Netanyahu Press Conference

    Interesting press conference. Netanyahu gets his turn and takes Obama to school @ 7:10.



    Obama scolded by Netanyahu on plan for '67 borders
    Just who does Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu think he is to be lecturing the president of the United States.....
    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...67borders.html
    Last edited by Wruff_ajax; 05.23.11 at 07:31 PM.
    _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_

  15. #15
    Hang 'Em High sickman's Avatar
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    Funny comparison of both men in their 20's



    I still can't believe this asshole is President. I guess I now know what it felt like to be a democrat from 2000-2008.
    I used to jog but the ice cubes kept falling out of my glass.

 

 

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