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  1. #1
    Gird your loins Daisy Hill's Avatar
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    12.11.17 @ 07:55 PM
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    Default Committee recommends women should be allowed in combat units

    I think they should be allowed. If they went into the military, they went in to serve their country. If they don't want to serve in combat, they have the choice to not enlist. What I cannot believe is that it is 2011 and this is still an issue of debate.

    Committee says women should be allowed in combat units
    By Pauline Jelinek
    Associated Press / January 15, 2011

    Although thousands of women have been involved in the battles in Iraq and Afghanistan, they have done so while serving in combat support roles — as medics, logistics officers, and so on — because policy prohibits them from being assigned to any unit smaller than a brigade whose primary mission is direct combat on the ground. A special panel met yesterday to complete the final draft of a report that recommends the policy be eliminated “to create a level playing field for all qualified service members.’’

    If approved by the Defense Department, the change would be the latest sizeable social shift for the military, including allowing gays and lesbians to serve openly and allowing women to serve on submarines.

    The latest proposal comes from the Military Leadership Diversity Commission, a panel of retired and current military officers established by Congress two years ago. The commission is expected to send its report to Congress and President Obama in the spring. The Army is doing an internal study of the question as well.

    The new report said keeping women out of combat posts prohibits them from serving in roughly 10 percent of Marine Corps and Army occupational specialties and thus is a barrier to promotions.

    Since promotion to many senior positions in the military is dependent on combat experience, changing the policy is a matter of fairness, said Anu Bhagwati, former Marine captain and executive director of the rights group Service Women’s Action Network, said.

    “The Armed Forces have not yet succeeded in developing leaders who are as diverse as the nation they serve,’’ said the report, which also touched on recruiting and a range of other issues affecting the diversity of the force. “Minorities and women still lag behind white men in terms of number of military leadership positions.’’

    Women make up about 14 percent of the armed services. Of the roughly 2.2 million troops who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan, more than 255,000 have been women, said Pentagon spokeswoman Eileen Lainez.

    Opponents of having women in combat question whether they have the necessary strength and stamina.

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  2. #2
    Atomic Punk jrk5150's Avatar
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    12.11.17 @ 07:48 PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daisy Hill View Post
    Opponents of having women in combat question whether they have the necessary strength and stamina.
    I've heard plenty of arguments against women - and gays - in combat. Having not been in combat myself, I don't feel like I can sufficiently argue some of those cases. However - this one, I understand. There should be a minimum standard for physical and mental capability to serve in a combat role, period. Same for men, same for women. And if you meet it, you can serve. End of argument. Everything else, IMO, is about training.

    I heard - which means I could have it wrong - that it used to be SOP to have two men to a stretcher to carry the wounded out of combat. Now it's 4 soldiers to a stretcher, and the person that told me that said it was done to allow women to "pass" that test. To me, that's wrong. If two men can do it, and all male soldiers have had to pass that test, and it's relevant to the role of combat (and I would tend to think it is), then it's wrong to have changed it. I don't have any issue with women in combat, but they have to meet the same minimum standards men do.

  3. #3
    carpe damn diem billy007's Avatar
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    12.11.17 @ 08:10 PM
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    On the other side of the coin, if the enemy has women on the frontlines, this could put a whole new twist on the cat-fight!

  4. #4
    Atomic Punk Dave's Dreidel's Avatar
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    12.11.17 @ 05:21 PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daisy Hill View Post
    I think they should be allowed. If they went into the military, they went in to serve their country. If they don't want to serve in combat, they have the choice to not enlist. What I cannot believe is that it is 2011 and this is still an issue of debate.

    Committee says women should be allowed in combat units
    By Pauline Jelinek
    Associated Press / January 15, 2011

    Although thousands of women have been involved in the battles in Iraq and Afghanistan, they have done so while serving in combat support roles — as medics, logistics officers, and so on — because policy prohibits them from being assigned to any unit smaller than a brigade whose primary mission is direct combat on the ground. A special panel met yesterday to complete the final draft of a report that recommends the policy be eliminated “to create a level playing field for all qualified service members.’’

    If approved by the Defense Department, the change would be the latest sizeable social shift for the military, including allowing gays and lesbians to serve openly and allowing women to serve on submarines.

    The latest proposal comes from the Military Leadership Diversity Commission, a panel of retired and current military officers established by Congress two years ago. The commission is expected to send its report to Congress and President Obama in the spring. The Army is doing an internal study of the question as well.

    The new report said keeping women out of combat posts prohibits them from serving in roughly 10 percent of Marine Corps and Army occupational specialties and thus is a barrier to promotions.

    Since promotion to many senior positions in the military is dependent on combat experience, changing the policy is a matter of fairness, said Anu Bhagwati, former Marine captain and executive director of the rights group Service Women’s Action Network, said.

    “The Armed Forces have not yet succeeded in developing leaders who are as diverse as the nation they serve,’’ said the report, which also touched on recruiting and a range of other issues affecting the diversity of the force. “Minorities and women still lag behind white men in terms of number of military leadership positions.’’

    Women make up about 14 percent of the armed services. Of the roughly 2.2 million troops who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan, more than 255,000 have been women, said Pentagon spokeswoman Eileen Lainez.

    Opponents of having women in combat question whether they have the necessary strength and stamina.
    If a woman can make the basic requirements for strength and stamina required for combat, let them do it. Otherwise, hell no.

    The armed forces are not meant to be a social experiment, in the immortal words of my father in law, West Point, Vietnam, CIA, etc.

    "Our job is to kill as many enemy combatants as possible, as quickly and efficiently as possible."

    I have yet met a woman who could carry me over her shoulder to safety if I was shot in the leg. I am sure some exist, but they are few and far between.

    Allowing women in mass to serve in combat would lessen the efficiency and capabilities of our armed forces, period.

    I just don't believe that the defense of our country is a place where "equal rights" should be any concern at all, the concern should be can you do the job, and unfotunately per genetics, most women I know couldn't even carry the pack.
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  5. #5
    Atomic Punk ziggysmalls's Avatar
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    12.11.17 @ 04:50 PM
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    Well if they want to make everything equal then women should sign up for selective service. In the event of WW3, they should have the right to be drafted.

    I am so sick and tired of us having a politically correct armed forces. Yes there is a segment of women that can meet the physical standards of the average 20 year old man. However the vast majority of them can't. When I was serving I distinctly remember women having to do "women pushups" when doing the physical readiness test. Their runs for the same score were minutes slower than the guys. Whenever something heavy needed to be moved, guess who had to do it? The men because having women do it would require more resources and honestly would take more time.

    I don't have an issue with them being forward deployed but asking them to be your "brother" in combat puts a strain on the effectiveness of the unit. Being gay physically does not. I am all for equal rights and regarding support roles, women are just as good as men but being a grunt is a different story. If you think women are physically equal to men then look at the Olympic records.

    Anyway it is what it is so get them to sign up for selective service. They have earned the right to be drafted.

  6. #6
    Atomic Punk
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    07.24.11 @ 04:36 PM
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    So far all the talk has been about whether or not women, whether generally speaking or specific to particular ones, can handle the physical and mental challenges and obstacles of war.

    What about the idea that women should not have to bear the burdenous horrors of war and the ideas that, in both times of war and of peace, women should be protected?

    Is that just a bunch of old-fashioned chivalry nonsense that has no place in our modern times?

    I suppose if a woman wants to do it and has the physical ability to do so, and there are plenty...just look at some of the women involved in athletics and professional wrestling. Women who can carry the pack, grab the average soldier and toss him over her shoulder...they do exist.

    I have no practical problem with women on the frontlines...equality and all that jazz and if we're going to have it, then yes, all young ladies need to register with the government just like us boys do.

    That said, there is a part of me that thinks the honourable thing to do is to protect and cherish our women and part of that means not sending them to war.
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  7. #7
    Baluchitherium
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    12.11.17 @ 09:44 PM
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    I don't think they should be able to for a few reasons. First, I think it would be very hard on the male soldiers seeing a womans face ripped off and her screaming for mercy and would emotionally compromise them. Second, we (men) are conditioned to respond a certain way when a damsel is in distress and speaking for myself, I know it would affect me to see a female soldier gunned down more to the negative rather than if a man was. There are plenty of men in he military that will gladly be on the front lines in combat and until that changes I would leave the women to the more cerebral positions so as not to complicate things.
    Most women aren't for combat, even though they may be brave enough, they are inferior to men in that realm, and would be a deteriment on the battle field. You may say this is sexist and you are right, but some things just need to be left to the men and others to women because of the way we are wired.
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  8. #8
    Atomic Punk Wruff_ajax's Avatar
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    12.11.17 @ 10:29 PM
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    I agree there's many reasons women shouldn't be in direct combat, and you guys have hit the nail on the head in most of the reasons presented.

    A couple reasons that haven't been mentioned yet...

    Being out in the sticks and digging a foxhole with your foxy little "battle buddy" to hunker down in for the night presents certain issues,, issues that should not be introduced to the field of battle. Yes it could certainly make those long and monotonous hours out in the field go by quicker (huh huh), but that's just not the place for hooking up folks. We can't put our soldiers in those situations without compromising more than just security. Trust me we're just asking for trouble if we put our men and women soldiers in those situations together in that environment.

    Another thing that really needs to be considered is hygiene. I've never stank so much as when my unit was weeks into a field exercise without a shower. Everyone's way beyond filthy and living cheek to cheek. After a few days you're just festering in your own filth out there. Baby wipes only do so much good in these conditions. Hygiene is a very important aspect of a soldiers life in the field. And even more necessary for women. You're forced to live like a pig, and in very close quarters with everyone. If you've never been there then you cannot imagine the rankness of everyone's collective stink. It's not healthy, and naturally all the more unhealthy for women. And putting men and women together to live under those forced conditions is a really bad idea for everyone involved. Especially for the health of the women,, and the sanity of everyone in an already extremely stressful environment.

    All sorts of accommodations would need to be made in so many areas.

    You're adding all kinds of burdens to the fighting unit by introducing women into their ranks.

    If women are so equal in combat to men, as the proponents say, then why not create women-only combat battalions? But then you have an entire fighting force that's collectively far weaker and slower than the guy-only units. And that's completely unacceptable and putting everyone on the front at greater risk. As you're doing already if you introduce women to the front line fighting ranks.

    There's just so many reasons that this is a really bad idea.
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  9. #9
    Baluchitherium
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    12.11.17 @ 09:44 PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wruff_ajax View Post
    I agree there's many reasons women shouldn't be in direct combat, and you guys have hit the nail on the head in most of the reasons presented.

    A couple reasons that haven't been mentioned yet...

    Being out in the sticks and digging a foxhole with your foxy little "battle buddy" to hunker down in for the night presents certain issues,, issues that should not be introduced to the field of battle. Yes it could certainly make those long and monotonous hours out in the field go by quicker (huh huh), but that's just not the place for hooking up folks. We can't put our soldiers in those situations without compromising more than just security. Trust me we're just asking for trouble if we put our men and women soldiers in those situations together in that environment.

    Another thing that really needs to be considered is hygiene. I've never stank so much as when my unit was weeks into a field exercise without a shower. Everyone's way beyond filthy and living cheek to cheek. After a few days you're just festering in your own filth out there. Baby wipes only do so much good in these conditions. Hygiene is a very important aspect of a soldiers life in the field. And even more necessary for women. You're forced to live like a pig, and in very close quarters with everyone. If you've never been there then you cannot imagine the rankness of everyone's collective stink. It's not healthy, and naturally all the more unhealthy for women. And putting men and women together to live under those forced conditions is a really bad idea for everyone involved. Especially for the health of the women,, and the sanity of everyone in an already extremely stressful environment.

    All sorts of accommodations would need to be made in so many areas.

    You're adding all kinds of burdens to the fighting unit by introducing women into their ranks.

    If women are so equal in combat to men, as the proponents say, then why not create women-only combat battalions? But then you have an entire fighting force that's collectively far weaker and slower than the guy-only units. And that's completely unacceptable and putting everyone on the front at greater risk. As you're doing already if you introduce women to the front line fighting ranks.

    There's just so many reasons that this is a really bad idea.
    Solid reasoning. It's just bad idea and men have been in combat since the dawn of time with no issues, why introduce this now? The US military stands to gain ZERO from this social experiment. If it is not broken, don't fix it.
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  10. #10
    Atomic Punk stilleddiesangel's Avatar
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    08.25.17 @ 05:45 PM
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    My single point is this, if a 6'3" packed bloke fell in battle, would a woman be able to get him out of there. If not, then definately not. Your team-mates are your safety and the ability to rely on each other in difficult situations is paramount.
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  11. #11
    Damage your reputation seenbad's Avatar
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    11.30.17 @ 06:15 PM
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    I was concerned with this dialogue until I got to Billy, Shama and Wruff's additions.

    Absolutely not. No, women should not be in combat. We are a weaker force for many reasons if that were to happen.
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  12. #12
    Atomic Punk
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    07.24.11 @ 04:36 PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by stilleddiesangel View Post
    My single point is this, if a 6'3" packed bloke fell in battle, would a woman be able to get him out of there. If not, then definately not. Your team-mates are your safety and the ability to rely on each other in difficult situations is paramount.












    They should start a new "delta force" of sorts for the most "qualified" women soldiers.

    The first three should be Awesome Kong, Chyna and Isis.
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  13. #13
    Baluchitherium loveevhsince79's Avatar
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    As with any job, as long as women are able to meet the full requirements, then yes. If they have to lower the standards to allow women, then no. The military has been around for a very long time and the standards that are in place have been honed to the very last detail to make you the most efficient killing machine as possible. I was amazed to learned that even the way you lace your boots has been studied and there is a specific way to do it in case they have to cut it off. That being said, women can throw a lot of issues into the mix that have never been addressed such dealing with your TOM in the field. As mentioned, if you are in the field for weeks on end, exactly how is that managed?
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  14. #14
    Damage your reputation seenbad's Avatar
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    Every ounce of my being says women in combat is a horrible, horrible idea.
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    Sinner's Swing! Darkstar's Avatar
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    I have nothing constructive to add here...with no disrespect to the wonderful ladies here at the links.....I've known 3 or 4 women in my life that the thought of them getting shot at makes me smile.......
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