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Thread: Paint Problem

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    Good Enough Ace Ventura's Avatar
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    Default Paint Problem

    I have recently begun a 5150 replica project and I have encountered a paint problem. I found a 1984 Kramer Striker in a pawn shop and decided to turn it into a 5150.

    I have encountered a strange thing with regards to the paint. It seems that when I cover paint with another coat, and the previous layer has been sanded or has a tape edge, I ma getting this "bubbling" or "curdling" of the new layer of paint.

    I am using Krylon Banner Red, White and Black spray paint. Can someone help????

    Thanks!

    -Ace
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    That's your problem right there Krylon sucks! Go to an autozone or auto parts and buy dupli-color paint.

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    Check the label...sometimes you have to re-apply within an hour, or wait 24 hours to re-apply. The paint will curdle if you don't follow the label instructions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Ventura View Post
    I have recently begun a 5150 replica project and I have encountered a paint problem. I found a 1984 Kramer Striker in a pawn shop and decided to turn it into a 5150.

    I have encountered a strange thing with regards to the paint. It seems that when I cover paint with another coat, and the previous layer has been sanded or has a tape edge, I ma getting this "bubbling" or "curdling" of the new layer of paint.

    I am using Krylon Banner Red, White and Black spray paint. Can someone help????

    Thanks!

    -Ace
    Did you strip the body down to the bare wood or did you paint over the exisiting paint?
    If it's the latter, chances are the two different paints are reacting adversly to eachother. And if you did strip it down, how did you do it? With a chemical solvent or sandpaper? There could still be trace elements of the solvent remaining on the body. That would definitely cause bubbling.

    Quote Originally Posted by smme5150 View Post
    That's your problem right there Krylon sucks!
    Bullshit. I painted everyone of these guitars and at least a dozen more using Krylon and I've never had any problems...
    Last edited by jimi11580; 01.13.11 at 02:51 PM.
    WGAF?!!

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    Good Enough 5150rob's Avatar
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    12.10.17 @ 04:04 PM
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    agreed...

    I have painted hundreds of guitars with Krylon through the years. Are you sure its the exact same paint just in different colors?

    I have had this happen to me over the years but only when I mix brands.

    Rob

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Ventura View Post
    I have recently begun a 5150 replica project and I have encountered a paint problem. I found a 1984 Kramer Striker in a pawn shop and decided to turn it into a 5150.

    I have encountered a strange thing with regards to the paint. It seems that when I cover paint with another coat, and the previous layer has been sanded or has a tape edge, I ma getting this "bubbling" or "curdling" of the new layer of paint.

    I am using Krylon Banner Red, White and Black spray paint. Can someone help????

    Thanks!

    -Ace
    what's the ambient temperature where you're spraying? Do you start off with a light tack coat? Has your tape been contaminated in anyway - either by handling or airborne sprays.

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    Before you blame your technique, here's a possibility, that has affected people all over.

    Krylon WAS good paint. Unfortunately over the last 2 years, government legislation from the EPA's urging forced Sherwin-Williams, (the parent company of Krylon, as well as Duplicolor) to change their formula for Krylon, considered a general purpose hobby paint, from an acrylic lacquer to an enamel. Other than a can top redesign, there was virtually no mention of this change other than on the label it now says "Dries in ten minutes or less" from the old "Dries in 12 minutes or less".

    Now that said, there are still the occasional can of the old formula on the shelves. So if one of your cans had a squared top as opposed to the more rounded, then there's your problem. Lacquer and enamel don't mix, especially lacquer over enamel. The acetone in the lacquer, eats the oil based enamel, causing the bubbling.

    ...Or.....Enamel has a different 'window" than lacquer. It is not as forgiving with not adhering to the instructions for top coats, so read the instructions carefully.

    It's not over guys...If you still love the ease of krylon, then you simply have to switch to Duplicolor. It is still legal for sale to the public as a lacquer because it is a specific purpose product, with a theoretically lower exposure.
    I guess the EPA figure, You fix a dent in your car, and you won't use it again, where is Krylon is marketed as a quick fix paint for everything, and everyone.

    Duplicolor are also in the process of offering the old Krylon colors, is the same size cans as Krylon, though the names are different, so you'll have to do some research at your autoparts store.

    Here's some complaints that have come up:

    Warning for those that use Krylon paints
    A year and a half ago Krylon changed their product lineup and they now have all of these fancy indoor/outdoor colors. They also changed their clear coats to and acrylic based clear and did not inform the public that this new clear is not compatible with all of the new pretty colors. The only clear coat that they offer now is the triple coat clear which is a very thick clear that make your painted item look like it is sinking in a pool of clearcoat, or the low odor clear that will wash off when it rains. I have used Krylon for ever, but it stops today. The new clear will lift and wrinkle the paint no matter how long it has cured. Basically there is no clear coat offered anymore by them.
    Thomas


    Another:

    I have used Krylon paints since I was little with no problems at all. Within the past year I have nothing but problems with applying the acrylic clears coats to the indoor/outdoor finishes. Not matter how many day I wait to apply the clear it will still lift and wrinkle the color coat. I called the 1-800 number and have found out that the acrylic clear is not compatible with the indoor/outdoor colors. Why is this clear even offered? Every store that I have went to that sells krylon offers the acrylic clear as a clearing option. If its not compatible why offer it. I have been all over the web reading story's of peoples misadventures using this option because that is all that is offered now. Since the product line up switch you guys are screwing up everyone's projects. There should be a label on the cans saying what works with what. So tell me what kind of clear I can use over the indoor/outdoor colors other than that low odor crap and why it isn't offered in stores......


    Jimmy,


    This link was the very first thing I came across when I had the same issue as you last year.
    Please read.

    http://www.ipmsusa2.org/reviews2/mis...of_changes.pdf

    In summary, If you stay withing the specific formula, follow the directions, and not possibly mixing old stock and the new formula (which happened in my case as there was no recall of the old formula; just a phase out) then you shouldn't have the issue again. Just a pain in the ass to resand your project...especially if the paint didn't cure due to the mismatch. You may go through a lot of paper if it loads up. If you use krylon again, just make sure, to remove all doubt that ALL the cans you use have the same advertised drying time on the front of the can.
    Hope this helps.
    Last edited by we die young; 01.14.11 at 06:35 AM.

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    01.01.13 @ 04:06 PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAD-1972 View Post
    what's the ambient temperature where you're spraying? Do you start off with a light tack coat? Has your tape been contaminated in anyway - either by handling or airborne sprays.

    That could be the problem as well. I am not sure if the previous layer is actually dry yet. I am in New England and there is like 8 feet of snow on the ground so I am doing this in my basement. Which isn't heated. Could that cause the bubbling?

    In any case, I appreciate all of the feedback. All I have left to do are the black stripes and I may just paint them by hand using another type of paint.
    "It doesn't mean that much to me to mean that much to you..." -Neil Young

    "The sun's not yellow, it's chicken." -Bob Dylan

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    Sheriff of Nottingham: Because it's DULL, you twit!!! It'll HURT MORE!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by we die young View Post
    Before you blame your technique, here's a possibility, that has affected people all over.

    Krylon WAS good paint. Unfortunately over the last 2 years, government legislation from the EPA's urging forced Sherwin-Williams, (the parent company of Krylon, as well as Duplicolor) to change their formula for Krylon, considered a general purpose hobby paint, from an acrylic lacquer to an enamel. Other than a can top redesign, there was virtually no mention of this change other than on the label it now says "Dries in ten minutes or less" from the old "Dries in 12 minutes or less".
    Actually, for as long as I can remember using Krylon - back into the 80's - it has always been an Acrylic Enamel. It's never been 100% compatible with true lacquer based paint like duplicolor. I'm sure I have evidence of the bubbling that it caused somewhere. What's really bizarre is that Krylon Crystal Clear IS lacquer based. Those who have experienced the crazing months later on their factory finish Krylon guitar, know firsthand that it doesn't work well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smme5150 View Post
    That's your problem right there Krylon sucks! Go to an autozone or auto parts and buy dupli-color paint.
    Nonsense I've painted three guitars with Krylon, never had a problem at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAD-1972 View Post
    Actually, for as long as I can remember using Krylon - back into the 80's - it has always been an Acrylic Enamel. It's never been 100% compatible with true lacquer based paint like duplicolor. I'm sure I have evidence of the bubbling that it caused somewhere. What's really bizarre is that Krylon Crystal Clear IS lacquer based. Those who have experienced the crazing months later on their factory finish Krylon guitar, know firsthand that it doesn't work well.
    Partially true. I used to work for a paint supplier for a number of years, and our bread and butter was professional lacquer based finishes for the furniture and restoration trade which required those finishes for authenticity, and am well versed in paint technology. I took the BASF accreditation course, and advise and order for my current employer, which are heritage millwork restorers. That said we never used Krylon, but we were surprised that Sherwin Williams were singled out by the EPA. To find out after the fact of a project gone wrong, and finding out the way others did, was real bush league. Since then, I did research on the Krylon brand history.
    Keep in mind, I too used Krylon for years on Eddified guitars without ANY problems whatsoever. So here's the deal. The clears they offered, and continue to have had compatibility problems for some time because they conmtinue to be acrylic lacquer based to maintain the desired clarity, and that's why I posted the two complaints on them. Prior to the formula change the main complaint was crazing, or a lack of full cure.....ever! Krylon's color selection was an ACRYLIC LACQUER. Meaning not nitrocellulose. The reason they switched from nitrocellulose is that it became an obsolete system due to it's tendency to break down or degrade over time from the elements. It's still available, as it does have some desirable qualities for specific applications, but for longevities sake, acrylic is the way to go.

    Any paint Nitro or not, containing acetone, or methyly ethyl ketone, and or isopropyl is classified as a lacquer. Anything containing mineral spirits or petroleum derived carrier agents are enamel.
    Krylon did always have the thickness of say an enamel for ease of application, and that's what made it such a popular formulation, but rest assured it WAS an acrylic lacquer. The new formulation is an alkyd enamel. It's still good, and all, but if you're trying to apply it to a different finish type, or don't follow the directions to the letter, by allowing previous coats to dry in the directed manner, you will run into issues.
    Take a look at Jimi's guitars. They look awesome, and If I'm not mistaken has done recent projects with the new formulation.
    Last edited by we die young; 01.14.11 at 08:28 AM.

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    Ok, so all of that being said, if I try to clear coat this guitar, should I be worried? Or should I coat it with another brand of clear?

    Sorry to be such a pain but this thing is coming out waaaay better than I thought and I want it to look great.
    "It doesn't mean that much to me to mean that much to you..." -Neil Young

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Ventura View Post
    Ok, so all of that being said, if I try to clear coat this guitar, should I be worried? Or should I coat it with another brand of clear?

    Sorry to be such a pain but this thing is coming out waaaay better than I thought and I want it to look great.
    Ace, this same scenario was discussed last summer. Please take the info at your own risk - no guarantees. I would try it on scrap first.

    http://www.vhlinks.com/vbforums/show...6&postcount=60

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    Quote Originally Posted by LAD-1972 View Post
    Ace, this same scenario was discussed last summer. Please take the info at your own risk - no guarantees. I would try it on scrap first.

    http://www.vhlinks.com/vbforums/show...6&postcount=60
    Exactly. I would check out Krylon's website as well as current active forums to see what others successes have been.
    Testing on a piece of wood is the best thing to do once you get some solid info just to make sure.
    The golden rules in paint though as far as lacquers and enamels in particular is:
    Always stay with a similar formulation.
    You CAN apply an enamel based paint over a fully cured lacquer finish, as the solvents have evaporated. Like a minimum 1 to 3 month cure time.
    You CAN NOT apply a Lacquer based paint over an enamel finish at any time. The aggressive solvents will attack the oils or alkyd base of it, bubble it, or worse case scenario turn it into a soft sticky mess.

    If you have any doubts about what the underlying finish and you want to apply another finish over top, then you must use a relatively inert sealer, ideally a shellac.

    Good luck with your project man!
    JJ
    Last edited by we die young; 01.14.11 at 12:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimi11580 View Post
    Did you strip the body down to the bare wood or did you paint over the exisiting paint?
    If it's the latter, chances are the two different paints are reacting adversly to eachother. And if you did strip it down, how did you do it? With a chemical solvent or sandpaper? There could still be trace elements of the solvent remaining on the body. That would definitely cause bubbling.



    Bullshit. I painted everyone of these guitars and at least a dozen more using Krylon and I've never had any problems...
    While you call "bullshit" there is an enormous amount of evidence to the contrary. Your work looks great and I am happy for all you guys that have had no problems at all but many, many people including myself have and I know what I am doing.

    When I say Krylon sucks, I don't mean from the beginning but the last few years as WE DIE just laid out here in this thread in great detail. Everything he said was spot-on in his explanation of why Krylon sucks. Besides... you guys own stock in Krylon or what? Easy there...

 

 

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