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  1. #1
    Atomic Punk
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    Default Santa Claus ousted, "rebranding" of a YMCA...

    He's a lost Claus.

    A politically correct West Village YMCA has fired Ol' St. Nick in favor of Frosty.

    Kids who once thrilled at sitting on Santa's lap at the 14th Street McBurney YMCA's wildly popular annual holiday luncheon will now suffer the icy embrace of a talking snowman and his sidekick, an anonymous penguin, at today's event.

    Forget about bringing a list or checking it twice -- Frosty doesn't take gift requests, and doesn't care if you're naughty or nice.

    YMCA officials, who say they are in the midst of "rebranding" the Young Men's Christian Association to "The Y," defended their decision.

    "It wasn't replacing; it was transitioning," said John Rappaport, executive director of the McBurney YMCA. "We realized that change is sometimes good, and that Frosty is a great winter character who would appeal to a broader number of kids."

    The decision to ditch Father Christmas came down from McBurney branch administration, not the Y's Chicago headquarters.

    A chilly reception greeted the news that the YMCA -- an organization founded to spread Christian values in 1844 -- was replacing the Christmas icon with a secular cartoon character.

    "Christmas is not about Jack Frost; it's not about snowmen," fumed Bill Donohue of the Catholic League. "We're not talking about some secular organization that has no religious roots. If they can't celebrate Christmas, then they should check out. What a bunch of cowards."

    "Santa belongs to all the people," added Ed Bobrow, who has played Santa at Central Park's Belvedere Castle for years. "He represents openness and an invitation for anyone and everyone to celebrate good will toward man."

    Bobrow, who is Jewish, says it's the kids who will miss out. "Try to see it through the eyes of the children," he said.

    "It's sad that people are so offended by a man in a red suit," said Taylor Patterson, an 18-year-old member of the McBurney Y. "It's not a Christian thing. It is the spirit of the holiday that counts. I think the Y is well intended, but misguided."

    Director Rappaport offered an olive branch to critics, insisting that everyone is welcome today -- even "Santa . . . if he's in town."
    "Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.” -- Gen. George S. Patton

  2. #2
    Baluchitherium loveevhsince79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voivod View Post
    He's a lost Claus.

    A politically correct West Village YMCA has fired Ol' St. Nick in favor of Frosty.

    Kids who once thrilled at sitting on Santa's lap at the 14th Street McBurney YMCA's wildly popular annual holiday luncheon will now suffer the icy embrace of a talking snowman and his sidekick, an anonymous penguin, at today's event.

    Forget about bringing a list or checking it twice -- Frosty doesn't take gift requests, and doesn't care if you're naughty or nice.

    YMCA officials, who say they are in the midst of "rebranding" the Young Men's Christian Association to "The Y," defended their decision.

    "It wasn't replacing; it was transitioning," said John Rappaport, executive director of the McBurney YMCA. "We realized that change is sometimes good, and that Frosty is a great winter character who would appeal to a broader number of kids."

    The decision to ditch Father Christmas came down from McBurney branch administration, not the Y's Chicago headquarters.

    A chilly reception greeted the news that the YMCA -- an organization founded to spread Christian values in 1844 -- was replacing the Christmas icon with a secular cartoon character.

    "Christmas is not about Jack Frost; it's not about snowmen," fumed Bill Donohue of the Catholic League. "We're not talking about some secular organization that has no religious roots. If they can't celebrate Christmas, then they should check out. What a bunch of cowards."

    "Santa belongs to all the people," added Ed Bobrow, who has played Santa at Central Park's Belvedere Castle for years. "He represents openness and an invitation for anyone and everyone to celebrate good will toward man."

    Bobrow, who is Jewish, says it's the kids who will miss out. "Try to see it through the eyes of the children," he said.

    "It's sad that people are so offended by a man in a red suit," said Taylor Patterson, an 18-year-old member of the McBurney Y. "It's not a Christian thing. It is the spirit of the holiday that counts. I think the Y is well intended, but misguided."

    Director Rappaport offered an olive branch to critics, insisting that everyone is welcome today -- even "Santa . . . if he's in town."
    I think cowards is the best way to describe it when it's a private organization founded on Christian principals. I think they will offend a lot more people doing something stupid like this change than a few who might be offended by Santa. Who exactly is so offended is what I would like to know. The Jewish people I know have no problem with Christmas the same as Christians have no problem with Hanukkah. It's not even about the Nativity, it's Santa.
    Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we are here we might as well dance.

    Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly.

  3. #3
    Atomic Punk
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    I'd kinda like to see a bunch of Pagans start making a bunch of noise about taking Christ the fuck back out of Christmas.
    Stay out of it, dude.


    I am Van Halen.

  4. #4
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    It's sad but it doesn't surprise me.
    I was reading the paper on Friday, and read a report of an elementary school teacher in Vancouver who is on suspension for going ahead with putting on a "Christmas" play with his class, as opposed to putting on a "Winter Festival" play.
    Here's the clincher though. The teacher is Jewish!!!
    Here's what he said to reporters:

    "That's what I can't understand" said the teacher. They had the Santa's, nativity pictures, and even menorah pictures removed from my classroom that the children drew. I was sent an email stressing me to stop teaching religious based lessons. I refused saying that I was not limiting my teaching to religion or a particular faith, and was also teaching about tradition, and world events affected by Christmas.

    I came into school Thursday, only to be informed that my services were not required until further notice." Jackson said. "It's an assault on culture. This particular celebration; what we gear up for IS Christmas. It's part of Canada's history. More than ever it seems the PC movement is trying harder to remove it from the fabric of Canada's heritage, and it's wrong. The Jewish faith has been marginalized for a long time as well, but it too is being assaulted more than ever.
    At city hall, the Christmas and Hanukkah displays have been moved to a single foldup table near the rear entrance of the building. In the lobby, what takes it's place is a "winter display" with the words Happy Holidays." say's Jackson.
    "I find it hypocritical that in this nation, the U.S. as well, our base laws are founded on Christian Biblical references. What's next? Retract those laws because of their Christian origin?"

    Jackson says he does not know if he still has a job. "at this point, I don't know what the future holds." He goes on. "I'm not sure if I want to go back after the criminal treatment I received. Being escorted off the school grounds for teaching...Maybe I was wrong, but it's funny because even some of my Sikh and Muslim students are celebrating Christmas in some form at home yet the school has a policy to reprimand those uttering the words "Merry Christmas. It's ridiculous!
    I've gotten a great deal of support from parents, and students, and that's very much appreciated. "

    I'm not religious, myself, but this story got to me. It's pretty freaky actually. So much for free speech.

  5. #5
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
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    my son's preschool is doing a Christmas play and in some of his recent work there was actual mention of Jesus and Mary and all that stuff I was pleasantly surprised. It's not a "Christian" preschool, just being run by reasonable people it appears.

  6. #6
    carpe damn diem billy007's Avatar
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    If anything makes me sick of Christmas, it's probably this (along with the over-commercialisation). Fuckwads have just taken all of the joy out of the holidays.

  7. #7
    Atomic Punk
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    Quote Originally Posted by billy007 View Post
    If anything makes me sick of Christmas, it's probably this (along with the over-commercialisation). Fuckwads have just taken all of the joy out of the holidays.
    Even as a non-christian, it's the over-commercialization that I find offensive and very self-defeating.

    More than wanting schools and stores and radio stations and companies to say "christmas" instead of "holidays" I think Christians who care about this sort of thing need to send messages to retailers and businesses that they will not participate in crazy sales and will not dump their millions into purchasing Christmas presents.

    But, more importantly than that, if spirituality is really what you want out of the holiday season (yes I said holiday season because this time of year does in fact have more than one holy day) then it starts with the individual and with the home.

    Seems that too many people want to see spirituality where it has never really been...and where I'm not sure it needs to be.

    I never see my spirituality or world view reflected in stores, schools, public parks, outside government buildings or on TV. Never. It doesn't matter because I see when I look in the mirror and when I look around my home and look into my soul.

    Honestly, I think the whole "put Christ back in Christmas" thing is as cheesy and counter-productive as any silly commercial jingle using a carol to sell cheap shoes or LCD tvs.
    Stay out of it, dude.


    I am Van Halen.

  8. #8
    Atomic Punk
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    AND yet, if so many people are concerned with what the future holds, how do we change the tide and stop the ridiculous nature of this PC culture?

    Who are the people making these decisions for us?

    How do they, the supposed minority have the power to do such to the majority?
    "Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.” -- Gen. George S. Patton

  9. #9
    Atomic Punk
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    Quote Originally Posted by voivod View Post
    AND yet, if so many people are concerned with what the future holds, how do we change the tide and stop the ridiculous nature of this PC culture?

    Who are the people making these decisions for us?

    How do they, the supposed minority have the power to do such to the majority?
    ah yes..."They." So ubiquitous...so powerful...yet no one knows who the hell they are.

    It's the conservatives! No it's not! It's the liberals!! Bullshit! It's college educated yuppie bastards! My ass! It's the damn know-it-all baby boomers! Oh blow it out your ass it's those left coast busy bodies in San Francisco! You don't know anything! It's those middle american freaks clinging to their guns and bible!
    Stay out of it, dude.


    I am Van Halen.

  10. #10
    carpe damn diem billy007's Avatar
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    That's the thing with Christmas - I don't see Santa Claus as a religious symbol. That's the thing about Christian holidays - they have been co-opted by the masses with things like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny and all that, and I don't think most Christians really mind - hell, a lot of us use those images as well. But these two preceding articles - you have the "Y" removing Santa Claus and you have teachers unable to put on Christmas plays, whether they stress the religious nature of the holiday or not. No one ever said you had to be a Christian to say "Merry Christmas", and yet because someone, somewhere finds it "offensive", people are urged or demanded to say "happy holidays". I just don't get it. If someone came up to me and wished me "Happy Channukah" or "Happy Kwanza" or whatever, I'd be okay with that. It's not like Christmas is celebrating some great war where one culture wiped out another culture. Christmas is a peaceful holiday - ostensively celebrating the birth of a baby. And it's been co-opted as a day where a fat man in a red suit rides around the world handing out gifts. What the fuck is peoples' problem?

  11. #11
    Baluchitherium loveevhsince79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by we die young View Post
    It's sad but it doesn't surprise me.
    I was reading the paper on Friday, and read a report of an elementary school teacher in Vancouver who is on suspension for going ahead with putting on a "Christmas" play with his class, as opposed to putting on a "Winter Festival" play.
    Here's the clincher though. The teacher is Jewish!!!
    Here's what he said to reporters:

    "That's what I can't understand" said the teacher. They had the Santa's, nativity pictures, and even menorah pictures removed from my classroom that the children drew. I was sent an email stressing me to stop teaching religious based lessons. I refused saying that I was not limiting my teaching to religion or a particular faith, and was also teaching about tradition, and world events affected by Christmas.

    I came into school Thursday, only to be informed that my services were not required until further notice." Jackson said. "It's an assault on culture. This particular celebration; what we gear up for IS Christmas. It's part of Canada's history. More than ever it seems the PC movement is trying harder to remove it from the fabric of Canada's heritage, and it's wrong. The Jewish faith has been marginalized for a long time as well, but it too is being assaulted more than ever.
    At city hall, the Christmas and Hanukkah displays have been moved to a single foldup table near the rear entrance of the building. In the lobby, what takes it's place is a "winter display" with the words Happy Holidays." say's Jackson.
    "I find it hypocritical that in this nation, the U.S. as well, our base laws are founded on Christian Biblical references. What's next? Retract those laws because of their Christian origin?"

    Jackson says he does not know if he still has a job. "at this point, I don't know what the future holds." He goes on. "I'm not sure if I want to go back after the criminal treatment I received. Being escorted off the school grounds for teaching...Maybe I was wrong, but it's funny because even some of my Sikh and Muslim students are celebrating Christmas in some form at home yet the school has a policy to reprimand those uttering the words "Merry Christmas. It's ridiculous!
    I've gotten a great deal of support from parents, and students, and that's very much appreciated. "

    I'm not religious, myself, but this story got to me. It's pretty freaky actually. So much for free speech.
    This is censorship, plain and simple. It ignores history as though it never happened. This isn't about instilling one religion over another, it is talking about the cultural differences and traditions of multiple religions. Whether you believe in a religion yourself or not, it has shaped the world as we know it. It's why I don't have a problem with schools offering different view points on evolution. How is it requiring anyone to believe anything when having open discussions that some groups of people believe such and such? It's like putting your head in the sand and acting like it doesn't exist. I find it funny that science can embrace alien life forms "seeding" the earth easier that they can the possibility that at one point, life began from nothing possibly by intelligent design. Since we don't know for sure, 100% without a doubt because science has yet to prove their theory of a single cell created from nothing, there still could be a chance. It's how you prove a hypothesis is by eliminating all variables, testing and retesting but if you eliminate a possible answer, how can it ever be true?
    Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we are here we might as well dance.

    Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly.

  12. #12
    Atomic Punk
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    Quote Originally Posted by billy007 View Post
    That's the thing with Christmas - I don't see Santa Claus as a religious symbol. That's the thing about Christian holidays - they have been co-opted by the masses with things like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny and all that, and I don't think most Christians really mind - hell, a lot of us use those images as well. But these two preceding articles - you have the "Y" removing Santa Claus and you have teachers unable to put on Christmas plays, whether they stress the religious nature of the holiday or not. No one ever said you had to be a Christian to say "Merry Christmas", and yet because someone, somewhere finds it "offensive", people are urged or demanded to say "happy holidays". I just don't get it. If someone came up to me and wished me "Happy Channukah" or "Happy Kwanza" or whatever, I'd be okay with that. It's not like Christmas is celebrating some great war where one culture wiped out another culture. Christmas is a peaceful holiday - ostensively celebrating the birth of a baby. And it's been co-opted as a day where a fat man in a red suit rides around the world handing out gifts. What the fuck is peoples' problem?
    Years ago, I went through a phase where I practically deleted "Merry/Happy Christmas" from my vocabulary.

    I felt like everytime I said it I was excluding myself or marginalizing myself, my heritage, my beliefs.

    A little personal growth later I came to realize that if I'm greeting someone, I prefer to individualize it to THEM. My greeting isn't about me, it's about them. So, for my many Christian friends it's "Happy or Merry Christmas." For my Jewish friends and coworkers it's "Happy Chanukah" and for those who are ambiguous or not affiliated to anything in particular, it's a simple "Happy Holidays" or a "Have a great Christmas" or "Enjoy the season."

    As for the symbols, there are those that are overtly religious like the cross and those that, though rooted in Christian mythology/lore/history have become quite secular, like Santa Clause. I dig Santa...who wouldn't? A fat guy, obviously hopped up on blow, (how else would he get so much done in one night? and why else would he even want to try?) sneaks into your house while you sleep, eats some cookies and milk and drops off some toys.

    Even as an atheist Jew I can get behind that!

    Same with the Easter bunny. How can you not love the idea of Christianity adopting a very pagan symbol of fertility and rebranding the little guy as a symbol of the Christian resurrection? Come on man...that's marketing GENIUS right there.

    I don't have a problem with schools putting on plays that talk about Christ, that's what Christmas is about. I don't see it as a breach of seperation of church and state, of which I am a big fan of. I see it as an exploration of what the big deal is this time of year. I think schools should also be able to roll with other plays that deal with other topics too, even if they are religion.

    One thing is teaching religion and inculcating children into a religion and another thing is teaching kids about religion.
    Stay out of it, dude.


    I am Van Halen.

  13. #13
    Atomic Punk
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    Quote Originally Posted by loveevhsince79 View Post
    This is censorship, plain and simple. It ignores history as though it never happened. This isn't about instilling one religion over another, it is talking about the cultural differences and traditions of multiple religions. Whether you believe in a religion yourself or not, it has shaped the world as we know it. It's why I don't have a problem with schools offering different view points on evolution. How is it requiring anyone to believe anything when having open discussions that some groups of people believe such and such? It's like putting your head in the sand and acting like it doesn't exist. I find it funny that science can embrace alien life forms "seeding" the earth easier that they can the possibility that at one point, life began from nothing possibly by intelligent design. Since we don't know for sure, 100% without a doubt because science has yet to prove their theory of a single cell created from nothing, there still could be a chance. It's how you prove a hypothesis is by eliminating all variables, testing and retesting but if you eliminate a possible answer, how can it ever be true?
    The only problem I have with teaching biblical creation stories in school is that fundamentalist groups want it taught in the same class as actual science. I think a distinction should continue to be made between philosophy and religion and science. Once that delination is no longer understood (and it doesn't mean one is better or more valid) then we run the risk of losing a great deal of what has made this country strong in so many ways.

    Teach Adam and Eve in comparitive religion, teach it in courses that study myth (again not the connotative definition of myth but the academic one) and creation. Talk about Genesis in the same class you would teach the Navajo's creation story, Hindi mythology about the earth's origin etc. Give it the respect AND THE CONTEXT it deserves.

    I would no sooner want Genesis taught in science than I would the Navajo's Turtle Island story taught in science class....nor would I want science class taught in a comparative religion course. As I said, give each the respect and the context they deserve.

    Now then, back to jesus candy and buying gifts!
    Stay out of it, dude.


    I am Van Halen.

  14. #14
    Baluchitherium loveevhsince79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by broken9500 View Post
    The only problem I have with teaching biblical creation stories in school is that fundamentalist groups want it taught in the same class as actual science. I think a distinction should continue to be made between philosophy and religion and science. Once that delination is no longer understood (and it doesn't mean one is better or more valid) then we run the risk of losing a great deal of what has made this country strong in so many ways.

    Teach Adam and Eve in comparitive religion, teach it in courses that study myth (again not the connotative definition of myth but the academic one) and creation. Talk about Genesis in the same class you would teach the Navajo's creation story, Hindi mythology about the earth's origin etc. Give it the respect AND THE CONTEXT it deserves.

    I would no sooner want Genesis taught in science than I would the Navajo's Turtle Island story taught in science class....nor would I want science class taught in a comparative religion course. As I said, give each the respect and the context they deserve.

    Now then, back to jesus candy and buying gifts!
    I knew you couldn't resist responding.

    Actually, I'm for the mention of intelligent design, not the Adam and Eve story. It is not specific to one religion and yet could be mentioned in the same vein as the possiblity of alien life forms seeding the earth. To me, it's all the same, having open discussions of the possibilities that are still viable until proven 100% wrong. Create something from absolute nothing then we have proof and the possibilities have been eliminated.
    Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we are here we might as well dance.

    Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly.

  15. #15
    Atomic Punk
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    Quote Originally Posted by loveevhsince79 View Post
    I knew you couldn't resist responding.

    Actually, I'm for the mention of intelligent design, not the Adam and Eve story. It is not specific to one religion and yet could be mentioned in the same vein as the possiblity of alien life forms seeding the earth. To me, it's all the same, having open discussions of the possibilities that are still viable until proven 100% wrong. Create something from absolute nothing then we have proof and the possibilities have been eliminated.

    ahh...loevevhsince...you know me so well.

    I was using "Adam and Eve" in that generic sense of referring to Genesis.

    I'm right there with you on the aliens though. I do think that should be mentioned in school as well. It's as viable as any other theory and so often gets pushed aside as Coast to Coast lat night radio conspiracy nonsense.
    Stay out of it, dude.


    I am Van Halen.

 

 

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