Follow us on...
Follow us on Twitter Follow us on Facebook Watch us on YouTube
Register
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 32
  1. #1
    Atomic Punk Wruff_ajax's Avatar
    Join Date
    03.15.03
    Location
    US of America
    Posts
    8,892
    Favorite VH Album

    =VH= II
    Last Online

    12.17.17 @ 09:22 AM
    Likes
    747
    Liked 797 Times in 382 Posts


    Premium Member

    Obama and Alinsky's "Rules For Radicals". Know the Enemy.



    I've been hearing a lot these past 18 months or so about a Marxist/Communist revolutionary named Saul Alinsky and our President Barack Hussein Obama's study, teaching, dedication to, and appreciation and practice of Alinsky's ideologies and methods for radical revolution, or as they both call it "community organizing". What's also known today as "the Alinsky concepts of mass organization for power".

    Alinsky wanted a radical change of America's social and economic structure, and he planned to achieve that through creating public discontent and moral confusion (sound familiar?). Alinsky developed strategies to achieve power through mass organization. Organizing was admittedly his word for revolution.

    Alinsky was a bluff iconoclast who's approach to social justice relied on generating conflict to mobilize the dispossessed.

    In Rules for Radicals, he argued that the most effective means are whatever will achieve the desired ends. In other words, the ends justify the means.

    Alinsky's own words from Rules for Radicals...
    "Any revolutionary change must be preceded by a passive, affirmative, non-challenging attitude toward change among the mass of our people. They must feel so frustrated, so defeated, so lost, so futureless in the prevailing system that they are willing to let go of the past and change the future. This acceptance is the reformation essential to any revolution."


    This morning I purchased Alinsky's book "Rules for Radicals, A Pragmatic Primer for Realistic Radicals" ($14 Barnes & Noble) so that I may better understand exactly what influences our current President (and those in his administration) and drives his actions to, in his own words, "Fundamentally change the United States of America".

    What exactly are we dealing with here?

    _________________

    Take notice of Alinsky's very first words in his book "Rules for Radicals"...

    Lest we forget at least an over-the-shoulder acknowledgment to the very first radical: from all our legends, mythology, and history, the first radical known to man who rebelled against the establishment and did it so effectively that he at least won his own kingdom - Lucifer.

    -Saul Alinsky

    __________________


    Barack Obama arrived in Chicago in 1985 to work for Gerald Kellman’s Developing Communities Project, an offshoot of the Alinsky network.
    Obama stepped into the Alinsky tradition after deciding "mainly on impulse," he has said, at age 21 to become a community organizer. His passion ran to romantic visions of the civil rights struggle.

    The Alinsky method, which Obama taught long afterward, relies on on the organizers ability to, as Alinsky states, begin the task of agitating: "rubbing resentments, fanning hostilities, and searching out controversy".



    Obama Teaching Alinsky's Power Analysis


    Here's just a few of Alinsky's rules...

    - Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon. It’s hard to counterattack ridicule, and it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage.

    - Whenever possible, go outside the experience of an opponent. Here you want to cause confusion, fear, and retreat.

    - The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative. Avoid being trapped by an opponent or an interviewer who says, “Okay, what would you do?”

    - Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, polarize it.

    - Power is not only what you have, but what an opponent thinks you have. If your organization is small, hide your numbers in the dark and raise a din that will make everyone think you have many more people than you do. (Deception is essential.)

    Through a process combining hope and resentment, the organizer tries to create a “mass army” that brings in as many recruits as possible from local organizations, churches, services groups, labor unions, corner gangs, and individuals.

    - Keep the pressure on. Use different tactics and actions and use all events of the period for your purpose.


    According to Alinsky, the main job of the organizer is to bait an opponent into reacting. “The enemy properly goaded and guided in his reaction will be your major strength.”

    His motto was, "The most effective means are whatever will achieve the desired results."



    In a letter to the editor of the Boston Globe, the son of radical socialist community organizer Saul Alinsky praised Barack Obama for stirring up the masses at the Democratic National Convention “Saul Alinsky style,” saying, “Obama learned his lesson well.”

    The letter signed L. David Alinsky closed by saying, “I am proud to see that my father’s model for organizing is being applied successfully. … It is a fine tribute to Saul Alinsky as we approach his 100th birthday.”



    This is only scratching the surface. I hope that more and more Americans become aware and wake up to what's happening in this country. Wake up to reality and quit being lured by appearances and lies about "Hope and Change". Our country is being duped every hour and is being intentionally and systematically destroyed from within by those holding it's highest offices. Beware the students of radical revolutionaries and their promises of "fundamental change" for the United States.


    In addition -
    Also look into Secretary of State Hillary Clinton's relationship with Saul Alinsky and her great admiration for him. As well as his own attraction, for political purposes, towards her.

    Alinsky thought highly of then 21-year-old Rodham, the student government president who grew up in the Chicago suburbs, and offered her a job. The job offer to "Miss Hillary Rodham, Wellesley College" was dated Oct. 25, 1968, and signed by Saul D. Alinsky, the charismatic community organizer.

    She was at the time in the midst of a year-long analysis of Alinsky's aggressive mobilizing tactics, and Alinsky was searching for "competent political literates" to move to Chicago to build grass-roots organizations.

    Hillary's praise and admiration for Saul Alinsky is no secret as she's been heard repeatedly praising Alinsky and his methods. Though she's quiet about this now, and even in 1993 by request of the Clinton White House ordered that her 92-page senior thesis for Wellesley College titled "There Is Only the Fight: An Analysis of the Alinsky Model." be suppressed, and remains suppressed to this day by request of Hillary Clinton.
    _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_

  2. #2
    Baluchitherium
    Join Date
    06.02.09
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    4,751
    Favorite VH Album

    Fair Warning
    Favorite VH Song

    Respect my Wind
    Last Online

    12.16.17 @ 09:35 PM
    Likes
    143
    Liked 1,140 Times in 650 Posts

    Default

    Earth FAIL.
    "Alcoholism, is like, the only disease you can get yelled at for having" - Mitch
    Hedberg

  3. #3
    Hang 'Em High Wray's Avatar
    Join Date
    08.17.03
    Posts
    6,596
    Last Online

    08.16.15 @ 10:29 PM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Ummm...ok.

    And Alinsky was neither a Marxist nor a Communist. Anyone that has studied Mr. Alinsky's work knows better.

    "Not at any time. I've never joined any organization—not even the ones I've organized myself. I prize my own independence too much. And philosophically, I could never accept any rigid dogma or ideology, whether it's Christianity or Marxism. One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're right.' If you don't have that, if you think you've got an inside track to absolute truth, you become doctrinaire, humorless and intellectually constipated. The greatest crimes in history have been perpetrated by such religious and political and racial fanatics, from the persecutions of the Inquisition on down to Communist purges and Nazi genocide." -Saul Alinksy

    Just like any other activist/philosopher, Alinsky made many good points and many off points. It's really all relative and subjective. But to paint the man as a communist is dishonest.

  4. #4
    Atomic Punk Little Dreamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    12.25.99
    Age
    45
    Location
    Pasadena, CA, USA
    Posts
    8,944
    Favorite VH Album

    Fair Warning
    Favorite VH Song

    Hear About It Later
    Last Online

    12.15.17 @ 11:35 PM
    Likes
    1,014
    Liked 1,390 Times in 763 Posts

    Default

    Which no one on the right is ever guilty of being, right?

    Radicals are dangerous, but hey, what about the "radicals" who wanted to abolish slavery? What about the "radicals" who were in favor of women having the right to vote?

    Back then "conservatives" wanted to "conserve" things the way they were, wanted to keep slavery and have only white men vote. Thank God for the courageous "radical" men and women who stood up to the powers that be and changed things. The founding fathers were radicals, conservative leaders back then wanted to keep paying English taxes!

    I don't know how long we will need to hear about Obama's radical agenda. If only he was MORE radical to change things for the better!
    Little Dreamer

  5. #5
    Atomic Punk Wruff_ajax's Avatar
    Join Date
    03.15.03
    Location
    US of America
    Posts
    8,892
    Favorite VH Album

    =VH= II
    Last Online

    12.17.17 @ 09:22 AM
    Likes
    747
    Liked 797 Times in 382 Posts


    Premium Member

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wray View Post
    Ummm...ok.

    And Alinsky was neither a Marxist nor a Communist. Anyone that has studied Mr. Alinsky's work knows better.

    "Not at any time. I've never joined any organization—not even the ones I've organized myself. I prize my own independence too much. And philosophically, I could never accept any rigid dogma or ideology, whether it's Christianity or Marxism. One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're right.' If you don't have that, if you think you've got an inside track to absolute truth, you become doctrinaire, humorless and intellectually constipated. The greatest crimes in history have been perpetrated by such religious and political and racial fanatics, from the persecutions of the Inquisition on down to Communist purges and Nazi genocide." -Saul Alinksy

    Just like any other activist/philosopher, Alinsky made many good points and many off points. It's really all relative and subjective. But to paint the man as a communist is dishonest.
    So predictable. I was certain that you would be the first to defend Alinsky. I almost put a liner note in my post that Wray would be the first to deny that Alinsky was in any way a Communist or Marxist. So saying that he was is "dishonest"? That's funny. It is true Alinsky didn't officially join the communist party. In fact he joined NO organizations whatsoever, Wray. He even says in the quote which you posted that he doesn't join even his own organizations. That he "prizes his own independence too much". So then what does it say that he never officially joined the communist party? Says very very little to nothing at all, obviously. In fact, even by your own example. Do read on...

    Alinsky, born in Chicago (birthplace of the American Communist Party) to Russian immigrant parents was a lifelong ally of the Stalin-controlled Communist Party at a time when Stalin was known to have murdered tens of millions of people. Alinsky's tactics were based, however, not on Stalin's revolutionary violence, but on the Neo-Marxist strategies of Antonio Gramsci, a founding member and one-time leader of the Communist Party of Italy. Relying on gradualism, infiltration and the dialectic process rather than a bloody revolution. Transformational Marxism.

    Alinsky, Marxism, and Communism. In page 10 of Rules for Radicals, for one of many examples, Alinski states that "A Marxist begins with his prime truth that all evils are caused by the exploitation of the proletariat by the capitalists. From this he logically proceeds to the revolution to end capitalism, then into the third stage of reorganization into a new social order of the dictatorship of the proletariat, and finally the last stage -- the political paradise of communism."

    Take it from Alinsky himself, Wray. In the same playboy interview, which you yourself quoted from, Alinsky also states that though never an official member of the communist party that "I knew plenty of Communists in those days, and I worked with them on a number of projects. Back in the Thirties, the Communists did a hell of a lot of good work…. Anybody who tells you he was active in progressive causes in those days and never worked with the Reds (communists) is a goddamn liar."

    In fact, in that interview, Alinsky gives a detailed description of his 1930s life as a communist fellow-traveler. Does the term communist fellow-traveler suit you, Wray? It should. After all it suited Saul Alinsky.

    If you wish to defend Alinsky, his teachings, and our own presidents discipleship thereof, Wray, then that's fine for you. A spade is indeed a spade. Most people that defend these things in America at least have an excuse, as pathetic as the excuse is. They're simply ignorant (see previous poster). I'm afraid, however, that you can claim no such pardon on the matter. You, I suspect, do know quite well.

    Anyway. Aside from your interpretations of what constitutes a communist, is there anything else in the first post of this thread that you'd like to attempt to refute?
    Last edited by Wruff_ajax; 06.28.10 at 07:06 PM.
    _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_

  6. #6
    Baluchitherium
    Join Date
    06.02.09
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    4,751
    Favorite VH Album

    Fair Warning
    Favorite VH Song

    Respect my Wind
    Last Online

    12.16.17 @ 09:35 PM
    Likes
    143
    Liked 1,140 Times in 650 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Norma Stitz View Post
    Welcome to VHlinks, you have a long bright future here. Have you been drinking?
    Last edited by Down In Flames; 06.29.10 at 08:52 PM. Reason: Troll Content = Deleted
    "Alcoholism, is like, the only disease you can get yelled at for having" - Mitch
    Hedberg

  7. #7
    Baluchitherium
    Join Date
    06.02.09
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    4,751
    Favorite VH Album

    Fair Warning
    Favorite VH Song

    Respect my Wind
    Last Online

    12.16.17 @ 09:35 PM
    Likes
    143
    Liked 1,140 Times in 650 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Norma Stitz View Post

    I love Kool aid, it's sugary, cool and it come in a funny shaped glass and a LOT of my friends drink it.
    Last edited by Down In Flames; 06.29.10 at 08:53 PM. Reason: Troll Content = Deleted
    "Alcoholism, is like, the only disease you can get yelled at for having" - Mitch
    Hedberg

  8. #8
    Atomic Punk Wruff_ajax's Avatar
    Join Date
    03.15.03
    Location
    US of America
    Posts
    8,892
    Favorite VH Album

    =VH= II
    Last Online

    12.17.17 @ 09:22 AM
    Likes
    747
    Liked 797 Times in 382 Posts


    Premium Member

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Norma Stitz View Post
    Think I hit a nerve.
    Last edited by Down In Flames; 06.29.10 at 08:54 PM. Reason: Troll Content = Deleted
    _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_

  9. #9
    Atomic Punk Little Dreamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    12.25.99
    Age
    45
    Location
    Pasadena, CA, USA
    Posts
    8,944
    Favorite VH Album

    Fair Warning
    Favorite VH Song

    Hear About It Later
    Last Online

    12.15.17 @ 11:35 PM
    Likes
    1,014
    Liked 1,390 Times in 763 Posts

    Default

    I donno what you guys are really suggesting.

    America is threatened by communism? In 2010, that's the threat? But there's no more communist party, Russia's not communist and China is only communist by name.

    A single payer healthcare system is not communism, regulating banks is not communism. This is really insane!
    Little Dreamer

  10. #10
    Good Enough Rocket's Avatar
    Join Date
    02.06.00
    Age
    49
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    1,727
    Favorite VH Album

    Fair Warning & 1984
    Favorite VH Song

    Girl Gone Bad
    Last Online

    12.13.17 @ 08:48 AM
    Likes
    1
    Liked 109 Times in 44 Posts

    Default

    Of course the Van Halen "I'm gonna fuck your girlfriend" links web site is where the political scholars should all be deep in study, thought and debate.

    What's next, an all out argument over who came first - the chicken or the egg?

  11. #11
    Atomic Punk Wruff_ajax's Avatar
    Join Date
    03.15.03
    Location
    US of America
    Posts
    8,892
    Favorite VH Album

    =VH= II
    Last Online

    12.17.17 @ 09:22 AM
    Likes
    747
    Liked 797 Times in 382 Posts


    Premium Member

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Norma Stitz View Post
    Sure got your ass outta bed, didn't it.

    Welcome.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rocket View Post

    Of course the Van Halen "I'm gonna fuck your girlfriend" links web site is where the political scholars should all be deep in study, thought and debate.

    What's next, an all out argument over who came first - the chicken or the egg?
    Thata way > > > http://www.vhlinks.com/vbforums/main...ussion-f8.html

    Hollar back if you find any news about that new VH record over there Rocket.
    Last edited by Down In Flames; 06.29.10 at 08:55 PM. Reason: Troll Content = Deleted
    _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_

  12. #12
    Hang 'Em High Wray's Avatar
    Join Date
    08.17.03
    Posts
    6,596
    Last Online

    08.16.15 @ 10:29 PM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wruff_ajax View Post
    So predictable. I was certain that you would be the first to defend Alinsky. I almost put a liner note in my post that Wray would be the first to deny that Alinsky was in any way a Communist or Marxist.
    So, in essence, what you're really saying is that nothing has changed. That's really quite unfortunate. I though that, just maybe, we had turned a corner here.

    So saying that he was is "dishonest"? That's funny. It is true Alinsky didn't officially join the communist party. In fact he joined NO organizations whatsoever, Wray. He even says in the quote which you posted that he doesn't join even his own organizations. That he "prizes his own independence too much". So then what does it say that he never officially joined the communist party? Says very very little to nothing at all, obviously. In fact, even by your own example. Do read on...

    Alinsky, born in Chicago (birthplace of the American Communist Party) to Russian immigrant parents was a lifelong ally of the Stalin-controlled Communist Party at a time when Stalin was known to have murdered tens of millions of people. Alinsky's tactics were based, however, not on Stalin's revolutionary violence, but on the Neo-Marxist strategies of Antonio Gramsci, a founding member and one-time leader of the Communist Party of Italy. Relying on gradualism, infiltration and the dialectic process rather than a bloody revolution. Transformational Marxism.

    Alinsky, Marxism, and Communism. In page 10 of Rules for Radicals, for one of many examples, Alinski states that "A Marxist begins with his prime truth that all evils are caused by the exploitation of the proletariat by the capitalists. From this he logically proceeds to the revolution to end capitalism, then into the third stage of reorganization into a new social order of the dictatorship of the proletariat, and finally the last stage -- the political paradise of communism."

    Take it from Alinsky himself, Wray. In the same playboy interview, which you yourself quoted from, Alinsky also states that though never an official member of the communist party that "I knew plenty of Communists in those days, and I worked with them on a number of projects. Back in the Thirties, the Communists did a hell of a lot of good work…. Anybody who tells you he was active in progressive causes in those days and never worked with the Reds (communists) is a goddamn liar."

    In fact, in that interview, Alinsky gives a detailed description of his 1930s life as a communist fellow-traveler. Does the term communist fellow-traveler suit you, Wray? It should. After all it suited Saul Alinsky.

    If you wish to defend Alinsky, his teachings, and our own presidents discipleship thereof, Wray, then that's fine for you. A spade is indeed a spade. Most people that defend these things in America at least have an excuse, as pathetic as the excuse is. They're simply ignorant (see previous poster). I'm afraid, however, that you can claim no such pardon on the matter. You, I suspect, do know quite well.

    Anyway. Aside from your interpretations of what constitutes a communist, is there anything else in the first post of this thread that you'd like to attempt to refute?
    Why is it always an all or nothing approach with you, Wruff? It's quite simplistic, and you're only doing yourself a disservice. Not only does it serve for bad debating, but it blocks any attempt at constructively addressing the core issues at hand.

    You fall into the exact mold that Mr. Alinsky refused to fall into himself--the personality of the self-debilitating ideology. The self-debilitating ideological process automatically dismisses all ideas, theories and hypotheses from a person or group of people when it doesn't agree with the general dogma. It's a fallacy that creates an even stronger polor dogma. It is the precise reason that we have the strong ideological divide in this country between conservatives and liberals. The fact that one may not necessarily disagree with all Marxist ideas doesn't make that person a Marxist any more than not disagreeing with all conservative ideas makes that person a conservative. That's the beauty of being of an independent mind. It's nearly impossible to label a person when they are not chained to the bondage of ideology and doctrine, even if you try in all the futile ways.

    You can agree or disagree with the ideas and writings of Saul Alinsky (and it's easy to do both), but attempting to pigeon hole the man into a neat, convenient philosophical and sociopolitical category is something that you will inevitably fail at. He didn't allow for it, naturally, and he lived up to that until the day he died. You won't find anyone that has studied Alinsky and his work that will deny the fact that he worked with Marxist groups, because he did. He also worked with Martin Luther King Jr. and Cesar Chavez and preached the thinking of Abraham Lincoln and Henry David Thoreau. Those are hardly your blood-red Marxist devils. The point is that the man was a social genius. He worked with whomever would further his cause. He realized quite early in his activist works that alienating every person that you disagree with will most certainly end your endeavors before they even begin.

    Alinsky made plenty of statements that I disagree with and proposed an array of ideas that I don't particularly suscribe to, however, I won't digress; that doesn't mean that I don't immensely respect the man, because I do. Not necessarily because of what the man stood for (but that is the case in particular cases), but because of what his mind stood for. He was intellectually independent, but most of all, he fought to uproot all ideological dogmas, from Communism to Christian Conservatism.

    In the end though, I'll let him tell you himself:

    "Believing in people, the radical has the job of organizing them so that they will have the power and opportunity to best meet each unforeseeable future crisis as they move ahead in their eternal search for those values of equality, justice, freedom, peace, a deep concern for the preciousness of human life, and all those rights and values propounded by Judaeo-Christianity and the democratic political tradition. Democracy is not an end but the best means toward achieving these values. This is my credo for which I live and, if need be, die."

    That's on page 12. I'm sure that you are there by now.

  13. #13
    Good Enough Rocket's Avatar
    Join Date
    02.06.00
    Age
    49
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    1,727
    Favorite VH Album

    Fair Warning & 1984
    Favorite VH Song

    Girl Gone Bad
    Last Online

    12.13.17 @ 08:48 AM
    Likes
    1
    Liked 109 Times in 44 Posts

    Default

    You are clearly passionate and you have to respect passion, however, did you ever see the guy standing on the street corner with a sign that says something about repenting and the end of the world coming?

  14. #14
    Good Enough
    Join Date
    07.07.08
    Location
    Shanghai
    Posts
    1,772
    Favorite VH Album

    Fair Women Down
    Favorite VH Song

    How Now Brown Sound
    Last Online

    12.12.17 @ 06:31 AM
    Likes
    30
    Liked 342 Times in 192 Posts

    Default

    What is dishonest is drawing the parallels to Obama, making bold claims about communist euphemisms ("comunity oraganizing"?), and assuming a thesis is true without any citations and merely by advancing said thesis with little merit in attendance. FOX News much?

    One thing I have noticed about neocons is they are the first to accuse the 'enemy' of exactly the the dubious tactics they themselves are perpetrating.

    Provide something of substance in how Obama is currently enacting any of these principles, philosophies, or ideals and maybe you'll have an argument. Otherwise, this is just more baiting and straw man bullshit. And who was being predictable again?

  15. #15
    Good Enough
    Join Date
    07.07.08
    Location
    Shanghai
    Posts
    1,772
    Favorite VH Album

    Fair Women Down
    Favorite VH Song

    How Now Brown Sound
    Last Online

    12.12.17 @ 06:31 AM
    Likes
    30
    Liked 342 Times in 192 Posts

    Default

    I've been hearing a lot these past 18 months or so...
    Source?

    What is dishonest is drawing the parallels to Obama, making bold claims about communist euphemisms ("comunity oraganizing"?), and assuming a thesis is true without any citations and merely by advancing said thesis. FOX News much?

    One thing I have noticed about neocons is they are the first to accuse the 'enemy' of exactly the the dubious tactics they themselves are perpetrating.

    Provide something of substance in how Obama is currently enacting any of these principles, philosophies, or ideas and maybe you'll have an argument. Show us where Obama is - in your lone and vague semi-citation - "rubbing resentments, fanning hostilities, and searching out controversy". It seems to me he actively avoids all of the above. Otherwise, this is just more baiting and straw man bullshit. And who was being predictable again?
    Last edited by E-roc; 06.29.10 at 01:40 AM.

 

 

Similar Threads

  1. President Obama in the 1993 Tag Team video "Whoomp There It Is"
    By voivod in forum VH Fans Meeting Place (Non-Music)
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 06.14.10, 10:02 PM
  2. Facebook: "Should President Obama be assassinated?"
    By Wray in forum VH Fans Meeting Place (Non-Music)
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 09.30.09, 08:27 AM
  3. Jackie Mason calls Obama a "schwartza"
    By broken9500 in forum VH Fans Meeting Place (Non-Music)
    Replies: 37
    Last Post: 03.18.09, 11:56 PM
  4. anyone play "Enemy Territory" ?
    By voivod in forum VH Fans Meeting Place (Non-Music)
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 01.27.05, 07:13 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •