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  1. #1
    Good Enough brownnation's Avatar
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    Default It appears that God in the pledge is safe

    http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/03/...giance/?hpt=T2

    Washington (CNN) -- Public schools in Western states can continue teacher-led reciting of the Pledge of Allegiance, after a federal court ruled against a group of atheist parents.

    The 9th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals, based in San Francisco, California, ruled 2-1 Thursday that the pledge does not represent a government endorsement of religion, prohibited by the Constitution.

    "The Pledge of Allegiance serves to unite our vast nation through the proud recitation of some of the ideals upon which our republic was founded and for which we continue to strive: one Nation under God," wrote the majority. "Millions of people daily recite these words when pledging allegiance to the United States of America."

    The ruling applies only to the 11 states and territories in the West covered by the 9th Circuit, but it reinforces other rulings from other courts upholding the pledge. The same appeals court also ruled separately Thursday, upholding the use of the words "In God We Trust" on U.S. money.

    The lawsuit was brought by several parents in the Sacramento, California, area who objected to the school policy.

    Among them is Michael Newdow, a prominent attorney and atheist, who had brought his long-standing dispute to the U.S. Supreme Court in 2004. The justices had dismissed that earlier appeal on purely technical grounds, over questions he lacking standing as a custodial parent to bring the lawsuit on behalf of his school-age daughter. Newdow then recruited other parents into the current case.

    Newdow said he would appeal Thursday's decision but acknowledged his dim prospects going forward. "This was the appeal and this is the end of the road in terms of what you're guaranteed," he said.

    Newdow said he'll ask for a rehearing and, if that fails, will appeal to the Supreme Court. "But they don't have to take it," he said, referring to the nation's high court, "and the odds are pretty good that they won't."

    A woman identified only as Jan Roe was a key plaintiff, arguing she did not believe in God. She claimed the daily recitation interfered with her right to direct her child's upbringing and that it indoctrinated her child with the belief that God exists.

    Children are not required to stand and repeat the pledge, but some parents said the social pressures to conform were an improper infringement of their rights. The plaintiffs now have the option of asking the Supreme Court to hear the case.

    The appeals court framed the issue as a dispute over whether was a traditional patriotic exercise or a blatant religious message. The same court in 2002 agreed with Newdow and other atheist parents.

    In dissent to Thursday's ruling, Judge Stephen Reinhardt said the pledge was an overtly religious message.

    "Carrying out such an indoctrination in a public school classroom unconstitutionally forces many young children either to profess a religious belief antithetical to their personal views or to declare themselves through their silence or nonparticipation to be protesting nonbelievers, thereby subjecting themselves to hostility and ridicule," he wrote.

    The Supreme Court previously has ruled the mere mention of God or religion by the government in a public setting does not necessarily mean a violation of the "Establishment Clause" of the Constitution, which ensures the separation of church and state.

    Examples that have met high court scrutiny include Ten Commandments or Chanukah menorah displays in a public park; opening a legislative session with a prayer; granting tax breaks for religious organizations; and reimbursing transportation costs for parents whose end their children to parochial schools.

    The pledge was written in 1892 by Baptist minister and educator Francis Bellamy, who made no reference to religion in his version. It was originally worded: "I pledge allegiance to my flag and the republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." It quickly became a part of public school programs.

    In 1954, Congress added the words "under God," at the urging of the Knights of Columbus and other groups. Another modification was to change "my flag" to "the flag of the United States of America."

    "This decision is a victory for common sense," Supreme Knight Carl A. Anderson of the Knights of Columbus said in a news release. "Today, the court got it absolutely right: Recitation of the pledge is a patriotic exercise, not a religious prayer. ... Every reasonable person knows that, and today's decision is a breath of fresh air from a court system that has too often seemed to be almost allergic to public references to God."
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  2. #2
    Baluchitherium
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    12.17.17 @ 02:05 PM
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    Good. Finally someone told them atheist liberals to shut the fuck up.
    "Alcoholism, is like, the only disease you can get yelled at for having" - Mitch
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  3. #3
    On Fire Eddie's Littler Monster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shamalama View Post
    Good. Finally someone told them atheist liberals to shut the fuck up.
    Yes, tell them, so that one segment of the population can continue to push it's beliefs on the the rest of population, in a country that specifically requests that the 2 areas be separated, in the founding documents of the country.

    It's very hypocritical that (usually ) the same group of people who claim that they'll fight to the death to keep there guns because it's in the constitution, completely ignore the separation of church and state which, by the way is there too.

  4. #4
    Atomic Punk ziggysmalls's Avatar
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    12.17.17 @ 05:21 AM
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    I don't care either way. How much does it impact one's life if "One nation under God" is in the pledge or if "God we Trust" is on money?

    It has no bearing and honestly if you get upset at seeing than you have bigger issues. Spend a little more time fighting for causes that can actually improve ones life.

    At least if one takes away guns, it affects people's security or belief of personal security. I buy that argument much more than saying "God" is not separation of Church and State.

    I also would love to know how many people who are against saying "God" say it while having sex.

  5. #5
    Good Enough brownnation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ziggysmalls View Post
    I don't care either way. How much does it impact one's life if "One nation under God" is in the pledge or if "God we Trust" is on money?

    It has no bearing and honestly if you get upset at seeing than you have bigger issues. Spend a little more time fighting for causes that can actually improve ones life.

    At least if one takes away guns, it affects people's security or belief of personal security. I buy that argument much more than saying "God" is not separation of Church and State.

    I also would love to know how many people who are against saying "God" say it while having sex.
    A couple things about that. There is a broader issue than that simple word "God" in the pledge of allegiance. So you're kind of poo-pooing someone's convictions about constitutional rights by saying it's all about the pledge of allegiance. Pledge of allegiance and money is just symptomatic of the larger issue, so I don't agree with your reasoning.

    I also think that people always say "oh there's better causes" or "they can spend their money in a more effective way" when it doesn't coincide with a belief that they hold (I don't know if you're doing this now or not, I'm just saying in general). Everyone has a finite amount of resource of both capital and time, that's a human reality. If you are going to make an economic argument based on the resources people waste then I think you'll find the resources theists use in making sure silly things like this get into the pledge (and stay there forever) or commandments in the courthouse, or washington lobbyists, advertising campaigns, etc. (the list is too great to keep going) by far exceed any time and resource atheists use.

    There are always "better causes" and "more important" things to worry about. But sometimes you have to take care of the nuisances and sweep up before you can take out the trash. These are big issues being fought case by case. Just because you may think something is "more important" doesn't negate the importance of smaller issues. I think I would turn it around and say that if it weren't for the believers trying to make the U.S. some kind of quasi-theocracy, then unimportant shit like this stupid court case wouldn't be necessary because there wouldn't be anyone trying to shove theist ideology down the throats of U.S. citizens.
    Last edited by brownnation; 03.12.10 at 11:27 AM. Reason: didn't finish a sentence
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  6. #6
    Hot sauce on everything Red's Avatar
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    12.17.17 @ 07:07 PM
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    I believe God is perfectly safe, in or out of the pledge. No force necessary.

  7. #7
    Atomic Punk ziggysmalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brownnation View Post
    A couple things about that. There is a broader issue than that simple word "God" in the pledge of allegiance. So you're kind of poo-pooing someone's convictions about constitutional rights by saying it's all about the pledge of allegiance. Pledge of allegiance and money is just symptomatic of the larger issue, so I don't agree with your reasoning.

    I also think that people always say "oh there's better causes" or "they can spend their money in a more effective way" when it doesn't coincide with a belief that they hold (I don't know if you're doing this now or not, I'm just saying in general). Everyone has a finite amount of resource of both capital and time, that's a human reality. If you are going to make an economic argument based on the resources people waste then I think you'll find the resources theists use in making sure silly things like this get into the pledge (and stay there forever) or commandments in the courthouse, or washington lobbyists, advertising campaigns, etc. (the list is too great to keep going) by far exceed any time and resource atheists use.

    There are always "better causes" and "more important" things to worry about. But sometimes you have to take care of the nuisances and sweep up before you can take out the trash. These are big issues being fought case by case. Just because you may think something is "more important" doesn't negate the importance of smaller issues. I think I would turn it around and say that if it weren't for the believers trying to make the U.S. some kind of quasi-theocracy, then unimportant shit like this stupid court case wouldn't be necessary because there wouldn't be anyone trying to shove theist ideology down the throats of U.S. citizens.
    Believers are not trying to make this country into a theocracy. That argument is no different than the far right thinking that we are going communist. It's fear mongering. Just another example of our country losing its common sense.

    Having state religion dictating policy or creating our laws was the reason for separation of church and stage. They didn't want clergy running the country but the founding fathers didn't feel the need to exclude every nuance about religion from our government. Yes I know they were not all Christians like the far right makes them to be. Some like Jefferson were agnostics or athiests and others like Adams were more pragmatic with their beliefs.

    What the left and right does is akin of saying if you have a beer, you are an alcoholic. There is no moderation of beliefs. That is why I was saying that what fucking difference does it make in a persons life if God is used in the pledge or is on money? It doesn't and honestly how much money has been spent in Federal court fighting this?

    Now if somebody comes along and says we should have forced prayer in school or they decide to create the National Religion of Obama, well I would have issue with it but this is not even worthy of a day in court.

  8. #8
    Eruption lacy_vious's Avatar
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    Wasn't the phrase "under God" added to the pledge in the 1950s? I recall reading that somewhere.

    LV

  9. #9
    Good Enough brownnation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ziggysmalls View Post
    Believers are not trying to make this country into a theocracy. That argument is no different than the far right thinking that we are going communist. It's fear mongering. Just another example of our country losing its common sense.

    Having state religion dictating policy or creating our laws was the reason for separation of church and stage. They didn't want clergy running the country but the founding fathers didn't feel the need to exclude every nuance about religion from our government. Yes I know they were not all Christians like the far right makes them to be. Some like Jefferson were agnostics or athiests and others like Adams were more pragmatic with their beliefs.

    What the left and right does is akin of saying if you have a beer, you are an alcoholic. There is no moderation of beliefs. That is why I was saying that what fucking difference does it make in a persons life if God is used in the pledge or is on money? It doesn't and honestly how much money has been spent in Federal court fighting this?

    Now if somebody comes along and says we should have forced prayer in school or they decide to create the National Religion of Obama, well I would have issue with it but this is not even worthy of a day in court.
    Seems reasonable. I would just ask then, if it doesn't mean anything, then we should be able to get rid of it pretty easily then. Somehow, I don't think that's the case. If it doesn't mean anything to have God in the pledge and on the money, then let's error on the side of not giving any indication that the government is supporting either belief or non-belief. If it doesn't mean anything, then there should be no fight: let's just get rid of it.

    It may not mean anything to you one way or the other, but I can guarantee if we went with the other, then there'd be a lot bigger and more furious stink about getting rid of something (that wasn't even there in the first place - strictly a mid-20th century installment) as the atheists are making now with their court cases. If we just "rolled back" God on our money and in our pledge, since the word wasn't there in the first place, the Christians in this country would absolutely flip.
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  10. #10
    Good Enough brownnation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lacy_vious View Post
    Wasn't the phrase "under God" added to the pledge in the 1950s? I recall reading that somewhere.

    LV
    Yeah. I believe it was 1954. The Congress was lobbied by the Knights of Columbus to add "under God".
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  11. #11
    Hang 'Em High RRMB's Avatar
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    05.21.17 @ 06:42 PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by brownnation View Post
    Yeah. I believe it was 1954. The Congress was lobbied by the Knights of Columbus to add "under God".
    OMG...we need to get rid of the Pledge of Allegiance...it was written by, by, by, by....a Socialist:

    The Pledge of Allegiance was written in August 1892 by the socialist minister Francis Bellamy (1855-1931). It was originally published in The Youth's Companion on September 8, 1892. Bellamy had hoped that the pledge would be used by citizens in any country.

    In its original form it read:

    "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
    In 1923, the words, "the Flag of the United States of America" were added. At this time it read:

    "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
    In 1954, in response to the Communist threat of the times, President Eisenhower encouraged Congress to add the words "under God," creating the 31-word pledge we say today. Bellamy's daughter objected to this alteration. Today it reads:

    "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."


    Section 4 of the Flag Code states:

    The Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag: "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.", should be rendered by standing at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. When not in uniform men should remove any non-religious headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should remain silent, face the flag, and render the military salute."


    http://www.ushistory.org/documents/pledge.htm
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    the pledge is fascist.
    Stay out of it, dude.


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    Quote Originally Posted by broken9500 View Post
    the pledge is fascist.
    "Jesus, that fucker just crawled out of his hen house that was destroyed by the Alabama tornados. Fucking 280mph plus winds sucked the gleam off this bitch and passed it on to a bird in Rhoad Island." - Hurricane Halen 5/3/11 (about my birthday chicken from seenbad)

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    Hang 'Em High Wray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by broken9500 View Post
    the pledge is fascist.
    That's quite an accurate statement--putting the State above the people.

    The Pledge itself is really quite antithetical to what our founders envisioned for this country. The likes of Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine would have had an absolute fit regarding the people pledging allegiance to the government. In all actuality, considering the type of government that they had in mind, it would be much more appropriate for the President and members of Congress to pledge allegiance to the people every morning.

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    I don't know if someone here's already said it, but does the idea of God denote RELIGION in a sense of an organized group of people, or theology itself? I'm somewhere in the middle of atheist/agnostic/deist, but it seems that those claiming the God mentioned in the Pledge is strictly Christian, and therefore wrong, are out looking to bring down Christians. I feel the same way about the opposite, claiming it IS strictly Christian, and trying to bring down atheists and other non-Christians.
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