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Thread: EVH - "Fire"

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    12.14.17 @ 01:39 PM
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    Default EVH - "Fire"

    From the Jason Becker tribute:



    end solo is quite good
    Little Dreamer

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    Not bad, but I don't enjoy Ed in this format. His "vocabulary" so to speak is very repetitive. He has all the tricks he does I just wish he would play more straight forward without all the flash. I know, let the flaming begin, and it's his style blah..blah...When he just phrases with blues licks it sounds great!

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    Quote Originally Posted by smme5150 View Post
    Not bad, but I don't enjoy Ed in this format. His "vocabulary" so to speak is very repetitive. He has all the tricks he does I just wish he would play more straight forward without all the flash. I know, let the flaming begin, and it's his style blah..blah...When he just phrases with blues licks it sounds great!
    Believe me when I tell you this. Those little "tricks" you speak of. Are not TRICKS in regards to Ed's playing.

    I thought along the same lines as well becase up until 2004 I only saw him live in videos (like the US Festival or LRHRN)....UNTIL I saw Ed in soundcheck. All those squeals and tricks are part of his vocabulary. He plays like that even when he is noodling around. Their not TRICKS.

    Sorry but it IS part of his style. You might not like it, and I understand that. I LOVE Ed's bluesier side as well. But their simply not tricks.
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    Eddie is really no different than Yngwie because no matter what style of music he is playing, you can tell it's him. That is what makes him unique. His personality comes through and while not polished like other guitarists, what he plays is coming from his soul.

    Sure it would be nice for him to expand his vocabulary but then you would lose Eddie Van Halen.

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    That was cool. I dug this one more. Thanks for posting!
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    Quote Originally Posted by smme5150 View Post
    Not bad, but I don't enjoy Ed in this format. His "vocabulary" so to speak is very repetitive. He has all the tricks he does I just wish he would play more straight forward without all the flash. I know, let the flaming begin, and it's his style blah..blah...When he just phrases with blues licks it sounds great!
    I agree with you 100% This started in the Sam years. It's not Sam's fault. Ed fell into a thing where his solos started to sound the same or used the same exact "Tricks" in a lot of them almost verbatim. Those "tricks" are part of his style and he has expressed himself in many unique ways using the techniques however here and in the Sam years and other places like on the Letterman solo appearances Ed resorts to the tricks and lets face it because it works, impresses people, sounds cool and likely is easier than truly coming up with a unique phrase or expression during that jam. Early ED seemed to not repeat himself nearly as much imo. This isn't a slam of Ed. It's the truth though imo. Imo some of that stuff became a crutch for him that he relied on too much. It stopped becoming innovative and expressed in unique ways considering the song and started to become standard runs, licks and tricks he would repeat time and time again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by At0micPunk View Post
    I agree with you 100% This started in the Sam years. It's not Sam's fault. Ed fell into a thing where his solos started to sound the same or used the same exact "Tricks" in a lot of them almost verbatim. Those "tricks" are part of his style and he has expressed himself in many unique ways using the techniques however here and in the Sam years and other places like on the Letterman solo appearances Ed resorts to the tricks and lets face it because it works, impresses people, sounds cool and likely is easier than truly coming up with a unique phrase or expression during that jam. Early ED seemed to not repeat himself nearly as much imo. This isn't a slam of Ed. It's the truth though imo. Imo some of that stuff became a crutch for him that he relied on too much. It stopped becoming innovative and expressed in unique ways considering the song and started to become standard runs, licks and tricks he would repeat time and time again.
    I respect your opinion. But it's 100% inaccurate. They're not TRICKS or CRUTCHES.

    It's SIMPLY HOW HE PLAYS. IT'S PART OF HIS STYLE.

    Just like sweep picking is a part of Malmsteen's style. Just like the wah is a part of Hendrix's style.

    They're not TRICKS or CRUTCHES. It's a PART OF THEM.

    And by the way.....It's the truth though imo????? Really? I know what you meant. But really that makes no sense. It's either the truth. Or not the truth. Opinion can't be involved.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvH_316_5150 View Post
    I respect your opinion. But it's 100% inaccurate. They're not TRICKS or CRUTCHES.

    It's SIMPLY HOW HE PLAYS. IT'S PART OF HIS STYLE.

    Just like sweep picking is a part of Malmsteen's style. Just like the wah is a part of Hendrix's style.

    They're not TRICKS or CRUTCHES. It's a PART OF THEM.

    And by the way.....It's the truth though imo????? Really? I know what you meant. But really that makes no sense. It's either the truth. Or not the truth. Opinion can't be involved.
    It's the truth. I'm not misleading you or talking mindless shit.lol Copying and pasting the same licks note for note into other songs isn't being creative it's being stagnant, lazy and relying on them as a crutch. Using those techniques to do something unique is part of how Ed plays/played for sure. For example the difference of the hammer pull offs between Eruption, Spanish Fly or the intro for HFT. The same technique used in different tunes and with a totally different feel and vibe. That's not the case here. It's copy and paste the same ole tired phrases used before and again and again. This became a crutch, or laziness, or just having fun and not trying to be creative just throwing your shit out there....or having a brain fart so throwing in old faithful. I would not suggest I am something so special I am the authority to marvel over but I've been around, been playing and studying long enough to know when someone has repeated themselves to death to the point where it's a crutch(and disappointing as a guitar playing fan). I think Ed got to that point to a degree with his soloing somewhere in the Sam years. Maybe he just thought he could get away with it, or wasn't inspired enough to work out better solos, or just settled, or hit a wall, or just didn't care, who knows. How many times can you do the high tremolo picking where you end up bending up on the highest note. How many solos can that be used in the exact same way playing the same exact notes before it's not a crutch, not repetitive and not lazy? Thats one of a few he fell on often but was rarely heard in the day.

    I'm not busting on Ed. I think he's a genius and all that stuff. I'm obviously a fan and some would consider me the biggest EVH schlong pulling apologist around lol but I just speak what I think. Ed got lazy and dialed up a lot of the same licks over and over too much at a point in his career. So much so it's obvious. Hendrix is a terrible example, he died before becoming so repetitive. Malmsteen is a better example but imo his crutches are in a way more impressive at least because they are hard to pull off correctly and Yngwie has always been that way. The Ed crutches clichéd licks are kinda silly things he seemed to have gotten stuck in his mind and thought was cool to play EVERY TIME he solos outside of VH and even on post 6 pack VH records. This is not the creativity Ed displayed on the 6 pack FW or 1984 for example ..or even on his quick side projects with M. Jackson, B. May or the Wild Life. Ed never truly got stale imo with his rhythm work and compositions but his solos definitely rehashed a lot of note for note clichéd licks later in his career and every time he was on letterman solo or in some superstar band thing.

    For your average great guitarists this isn't such a noticeable thing but for EVH who started out so creative and innovative it's easy to tell when he started to do this way too much. I'm surprised anyone would argue against it.

    This is all off topic anyway. These are cool vids of a jam Ed had some 13 years ago. Not all is clichéd stuff. Also it's not that the same ole stuff sounds bad it's just, "there he goes again with that same lick" instead of the old Ed where you'd think.."whoa that was fking awesome he's so damn creative and amazing with his unorthodox techniques..that was unique".

    Peace
    Last edited by At0micPunk; 08.21.09 at 08:19 PM.
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    Let's face it, Ed was never the greatest improviser and why his jams are
    usually kind of lacking. I mean, VH the band hardly ever stretches out like
    I would like and expect them to. Tired setlists, anyone? But some of these
    clips are cool, and you gotta hand it to him for giving it shot. Esp. when it's
    the thought that counted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by E-roc View Post
    Let's face it, Ed was never the greatest improviser and why his jams are
    usually kind of lacking. I mean, VH the band hardly ever stretches out like
    I would like and expect them to. Tired setlists, anyone? But some of these
    clips are cool, and you gotta hand it to him for giving it shot. Esp. when it's
    the thought that counted.
    Ed was never the greatest improviser?

    God where some of you come up with these notions is simply UNBELIEVABLE.
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    Quote Originally Posted by At0micPunk View Post
    It's the truth. I'm not misleading you or talking mindless shit.lol Copying and pasting the same licks note for note into other songs isn't being creative it's being stagnant, lazy and relying on them as a crutch. Using those techniques to do something unique is part of how Ed plays/played for sure. For example the difference of the hammer pull offs between Eruption, Spanish Fly or the intro for HFT. The same technique used in different tunes and with a totally different feel and vibe. That's not the case here. It's copy and paste the same ole tired phrases used before and again and again. This became a crutch, or laziness, or just having fun and not trying to be creative just throwing your shit out there....or having a brain fart so throwing in old faithful. I would not suggest I am something so special I am the authority to marvel over but I've been around, been playing and studying long enough to know when someone has repeated themselves to death to the point where it's a crutch(and disappointing as a guitar playing fan). I think Ed got to that point to a degree with his soloing somewhere in the Sam years. Maybe he just thought he could get away with it, or wasn't inspired enough to work out better solos, or just settled, or hit a wall, or just didn't care, who knows. How many times can you do the high tremolo picking where you end up bending up on the highest note. How many solos can that be used in the exact same way playing the same exact notes before it's not a crutch, not repetitive and not lazy? Thats one of a few he fell on often but was rarely heard in the day.

    I'm not busting on Ed. I think he's a genius and all that stuff. I'm obviously a fan and some would consider me the biggest EVH schlong pulling apologist around lol but I just speak what I think. Ed got lazy and dialed up a lot of the same licks over and over too much at a point in his career. So much so it's obvious. Hendrix is a terrible example, he died before becoming so repetitive. Malmsteen is a better example but imo his crutches are in a way more impressive at least because they are hard to pull off correctly and Yngwie has always been that way. The Ed crutches clichéd licks are kinda silly things he seemed to have gotten stuck in his mind and thought was cool to play EVERY TIME he solos outside of VH and even on post 6 pack VH records. This is not the creativity Ed displayed on the 6 pack FW or 1984 for example ..or even on his quick side projects with M. Jackson, B. May or the Wild Life. Ed never truly got stale imo with his rhythm work and compositions but his solos definitely rehashed a lot of note for note clichéd licks later in his career and every time he was on letterman solo or in some superstar band thing.

    For your average great guitarists this isn't such a noticeable thing but for EVH who started out so creative and innovative it's easy to tell when he started to do this way too much. I'm surprised anyone would argue against it.

    This is all off topic anyway. These are cool vids of a jam Ed had some 13 years ago. Not all is clichéd stuff. Also it's not that the same ole stuff sounds bad it's just, "there he goes again with that same lick" instead of the old Ed where you'd think.."whoa that was fking awesome he's so damn creative and amazing with his unorthodox techniques..that was unique".

    Peace
    I have one question. Have you ever seen Ed play in a private setting? Have you ever seen him noodle around? Not worrying about pleasing an audience or pleasing a producer?

    I HAVE. It was Ed, a guitar, and 60 of us. He barely knew we were there while he was playing. He wasn't doing the squeals, the whammy bar dives, the tapping to WOW us.

    He was doing it as an extension of his playing.

    Spanish Fly, Hot for Teacher and Eruption...The tapping sections are VASTLY different. Sorry if you disagree but that is fact.


    And EVERY guitarists have signature licks they play. Ed too.

    And in regards to Malmsteen why does difficulty determine how impressive it is? I much prefer 3 notes that tell a story than 25 notes that ramble on.

    I did not disagree that Ed repeats certain things. But every guitarist does. But in regards to Ed, what you call TRICKS...Are what I call an extension of his playing.

    It's not a crutch. It's simply how he plays. He uses the whammy bar to express himself. He taps on the fret board to express a feeling at that very instant. He makes the guitar squeal because it fits at that very moment.

    NONE of it is for show or WOW factor. If you want to believe that, that's fine. I respect your right to do so. But you're mistaken in that belief.

    ---

    And btw...Saying that something is the truth, in your opinion, is not correct. It's ridiculous. An opinion is just that...an OPINION. Truth is FACT. Truth and OPINION don't go together.
    Last edited by MF5150; 08.21.09 at 11:03 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvH_316_5150 View Post
    I have one question. Have you ever seen Ed play in a private setting? Have you ever seen him noodle around? Not worrying about pleasing an audience or pleasing a producer?

    I HAVE. It was Ed, a guitar, and 60 of us. He barely knew we were there while he was playing. He wasn't doing the squeals, the whammy bar dives, the tapping to WOW us.

    He was doing it as an extension of his playing.

    Are you talking about the 04 soundcheck? No I haven't seen that or sat in front of Ed personally etc.
    That really has no bearing though.Check the Letterman solo performances, check that als tribute, the jan hammer thing, check every all star band thing hes ever done. Listen to his solos one after another. It's not thats he's using similar techniques in creative ways to express himself. He's playing the same exact licks note for note intertwined with a few bits that are more fitting for the song or spontaneously fresh. If that was the only place I noticed it I'd say"Well Ed falls on old hat some when improvising, on the spot but is much more creative in the studio when he can think it out and take his time"...but he did this on many Sam era records too..repeated many "catch phrases" to the point it was noticeable and I wondered why Ed (while still sounding great) was stuck on those licks after being so innovative, non repetitive and creative for many years prior.


    Spanish Fly, Hot for Teacher and Eruption...The tapping sections are VASTLY different. Sorry if you disagree but that is fact.

    They are very different that was my point dude..I pointed them out as examples of how Ed has used his techniques in creative, unique and original ways in the past often. (Re read my wordy post. lol) Unlike the rehashed catch phrases he's repeated OVER AND OVER as I pointed out previously. I'm not saying every single EVH solo Sam era and beyond is like that but many fall into that category.

    And EVERY guitarists have signature licks they play. Ed too.

    I agree but at some point ED got a mental block with a few that he plays all the time. This wasn't the case early in his career. It's not a cool thing he did this. IMO it became a bad habit or sorts. It's fact he became reptitive in his solos. It's imo it's a crutch of his...not the techniques but the note for note licks he insists on repeating.


    And in regards to Malmsteen why does difficulty determine how impressive it is? I much prefer 3 notes that tell a story than 25 notes that ramble on.

    Because Yngwie has done the same stuff since day one and it's difficult to pull off. EVH was never so repetitive early on but in this regard, in many of his solos and live non VH performances he became not only repetitive but predictable. EVH was anything but predictable early on. As far as 3 notes and 25 notes it's a matter of what those notes sound like and how they fit. I agree often less is more.

    I did not disagree that Ed repeats certain things. But every guitarist does. But in regards to Ed, what you call TRICKS...Are what I call an extension of his playing.

    It's not a crutch. It's simply how he plays. He uses the whammy bar to express himself. He taps on the fret board to express a feeling at that very instant. He makes the guitar squeal because it fits at that very moment.

    NONE of it is for show or WOW factor. If you want to believe that, that's fine. I respect your right to do so. But you're mistaken in that belief.

    ---

    And btw...Saying that something is the truth, in your opinion, is not correct. It's ridiculous. An opinion is just that...an OPINION. Truth is FACT. Truth and OPINION don't go together.
    lol dude! Ok how's this. At a certain point Ed began rehashing a handful licks note for note way to often. Thats the truth.

    Another thing you have wrong. I'm not saying Ed's "tricks" or techniques are crutches. There is a handful of clichéd licks he's repeated way too often beginning in the hagar era on. Note for note pretty much. This was not the case early but he fell into a comfort zone with a few guitar "catch Phrases". If you don't know what I'm talking about, can't differentiate then we can agree to disagree. It's not about me being right with a stranger on the internet but I whole heartedly stand by what I say here. I'm not saying I'm better, I wish I had Ed's creativity and direct link or whatever it is but I'm experienced enough to know this is the truth. I agree guitarists repeat things and I don't expect Ed to have the ability to make every solo he plays a unique and fresh composition that bears no resemblance to anything he's done before. What stood out to me though was at a certain point ED rehashed many catch phrases note for note in way too many settings. Why I don't know. I'm a broken record now so believe what you want. I speak the truth.
    Last edited by At0micPunk; 08.22.09 at 12:21 AM.
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    I'm not a guitarist but I understand where both of you are coming from. I understand because I'm a huge jam band fan. However, one of the highlights on the last tour was the outro solo/jam on "Cradle will Rock"- no tapping, squeals, etc- just flat out jamming/guitar proficiency that led into the Smoke on the Water riff. I also looked forward to all of the other outros albeit some were very short- on So this is love, unchained, Mean Street, etc- they were played differently each time I saw them. Eddie does have it in him to improvise well- the type of band he's in just doesn't allow for it or he chooses not to all the time
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    I fall in between the two opposing opinions.
    I'd say the solo on "When It's Love," albeit during the Sam years, shows a return to the Clapton influence that wasn't present before. I'd also say the song "5150" as a whole shows some innovation with the long development of a melodic phrase.
    "Finish What You Started" sees Eddie borrowing country techniques and putting them to good use. During the 5150 tour, he incorporated bit of "Fur Elise" from Beethoven in his unnacompanied solo. The solo breaks on "Judgment Day" were quite new and the minimalism of "316" was great as well. On some of the faster tunes, he did rely on his established techniques.
    But take the outro of "Me Wise Magic" - the melody there is quite touching and unlike anything EVH ever recorded. The octave run at the end of "Crossing Over" is quite different than anything EVH has ever done as well.
    But I think the repetition comes form his lack so self-confidence. Those techniques had made him king of the hill, so in doubt he started to revert to them, since he knew that's what people want. In the early days, there was no throne to fall from, nothing to lose, so he could take risks all the time. It also didn't help that 1993 - 1997 were the grunge years where solos were frowned upon. Hence no solo on "Seventh Seal."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Dreamer View Post
    I fall in between the two opposing opinions.
    I'd say the solo on "When It's Love," albeit during the Sam years, shows a return to the Clapton influence that wasn't present before. I'd also say the song "5150" as a whole shows some innovation with the long development of a melodic phrase.
    "Finish What You Started" sees Eddie borrowing country techniques and putting them to good use. During the 5150 tour, he incorporated bit of "Fur Elise" from Beethoven in his unnacompanied solo. The solo breaks on "Judgment Day" were quite new and the minimalism of "316" was great as well. On some of the faster tunes, he did rely on his established techniques.
    But take the outro of "Me Wise Magic" - the melody there is quite touching and unlike anything EVH ever recorded. The octave run at the end of "Crossing Over" is quite different than anything EVH has ever done as well.
    But I think the repetition comes form his lack so self-confidence. Those techniques had made him king of the hill, so in doubt he started to revert to them, since he knew that's what people want. In the early days, there was no throne to fall from, nothing to lose, so he could take risks all the time. It also didn't help that 1993 - 1997 were the grunge years where solos were frowned upon. Hence no solo on "Seventh Seal."
    I agree with most of that. I'd even say he showed a lot of creativity on VH3. We are pretty much on the same page with this. I'm not saying Ed became nothing but a repetitive rehash of "tricks". Thats definitely not the case. It's that he seemed to fall into a comfort zone with specific licks he would repeat often...especially when playing outside of VH. I think out of a little complacency or laziness...it may be a subconscious thing. It's not so much the techniques he's using as how he's using them...by repeating the same recognizable licks and pasting them all over the place without variation.
    A lick is different than a technique. You could have hammer pull offs in every solo you write and they all have a variation and not be a repeat of another lick.

    For one example of the "problem"...he's used the end ascending tremolo picking run that he ends the solo for Dancing In the Streets and Beat it and tossed it in all over the place(in basically the same position and playing it the same way). Sure that technique is in other songs CVH and beyond in different positions and thats fine but he started repeating it way to often in the same position and always ending on the highest note you can fret and bending it higher. There are others too he's over used. All guitarist repeat themselves but IMO Ed should dial some of those back a little or add a little variation to them cause as it is he's abusing them and sounding repetitive when doing so.

    He's as repetitive at times as my posts have been in this thread. lol
    Last edited by At0micPunk; 08.23.09 at 11:15 PM.
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