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  1. #1
    Atomic Punk
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    05.31.14 @ 08:17 PM
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    Default The UK Continues To Bend Over For Muslims

    As an Anglophile, the trend of constantly making concessions to their minority Mulim population has been a sad affair.

    Now, during special Muslim swimming sessions, non-Muslims are being forced to wear Burkinis or trunks that we haven't seen on the beaches in this country since 1914.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...-burkinis.html

    Croydon council in south London runs separate one-and-a half-hour swimming sessions for Muslim men and women every Saturday and Sunday at Thornton Heath Leisure Centre.

    Swimmers were told last week on the centre's website that "during special Muslim sessions male costumes must cover the body from the navel to the knee and females must be covered from the neck to the ankles and wrists".

    There are similar rules at Scunthorpe Leisure Centre, in North Lincolnshire, where "users must follow the required dress code for this session (T-shirts and shorts/leggings that cover below the knee)".

    In Glasgow, a men-only swimming session is organised by a local mosque group at North Woodside Leisure Centre, at which swimmers must be covered from navel to knee.
    After discovering the rules at Thornton Heath one Croydon resident, 34-year-old Alex Craig, said: "I think it is preposterous that a council should be encouraging this type of segregation over municipal facilities.

    "Surely if Muslims want to swim then they should just turn up with their modest swimwear at the same time as everyone else."

    Douglas Murray, director of the Centre for Social Cohesion, last night condemned the practice. He said: "This kind of thing is extremely divisive.

    "Non-Muslims see these extremist demands as an example of Muslims wanting things to fit into their lifestyle, when there aren't similar things organised for Hindus, Buddhists or Jews.

    "It also puts moderate Muslims in an awkward position as it suggests, wrongly, that they are not devout enough, simply because they choose not to cover themselves in a shroud in a pool."
    If you want to wear some non-modest swimwear to the pool that is your business, but if you make me dress a certain way I'm going to have a problem with it.

    If I were to move to England, I would accept the fact that I'm no longer in California and the US. It would never dawn on me to impose my values upon my new neighbors. There are places in the world that have cultures that I find offensive on many levels, I would never move to one of those places. I can tell you that if I tried to pull off the crap that the Muslims in GB are getting away with I would be lucky if all that happened to me was to be kicked out.
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  2. #2
    Sinner's Swing! graeme's Avatar
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    11.19.17 @ 09:41 AM
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    Default

    Whilst I do agree with your points here, once again, we do have some dívisive journalism going on.

    The key phrase here is "special sessions". At first glance, the article makes this seem much worse than it probably is. Short sessions have been organised to cater for a group that, in these particular areas, is quite possibly not the minority that it might initially appear. Such an idea would be preposterous if it were introduced in a town, for example, in the South west of the country, where the population is very much predominantly white English. Economics are at play here. Pools would not even consider offering these sessions unless it were financially viable. The demand is obviously there.

    However, like i said, I do agree that there is far too much pandering to groups in the wider scheme of things. If you move somewhere, it is important that you try to at least fit in with the general lifestyle and where that goes against your beliefs, unfortunately, you might miss out.

    Case in point: A family that I have become good friends with over the years are Muslim Bangladeshi. They do not drink alcohol. So they don't go to pubs. They don't demand that pubs close or that "non-alcohol pubs" are created just for them. They simply don't go because it does not fit with their world view. And they are absolutely reasonable about this. I would venture that the majority of people are just as reasonable. Shame is, we only hear about the ones who are not.

    Back to the article; If an area has a huge demand for segregated sessions and it makes both financial and market share sense to do so, there really isn't a problem in my opinion, but only if those two criteria are fulfilled. When I was kid, our local pool had mother and children only sessions - it made sense.

    A pool is offering a service, bottom line, one of which is actually a privately organised session by a mosque - I would guess that they hire the pool themselves, just as so many other groups do. I would have serious misgivings if a blanket requirement were placed on all pools to do this, but I doubt that would ever be the case.

    Also, whilst the Telegraph is considered an "intelligent" broadsheet, it does have a reputation for scare-mongering tactics from time to time, and I would bet that certain information has been excluded from this article. For a start, I would put serious money on the fact that these sessions are at absolute off peak times when the pool is virtually empty anyway.
    A man could lose himself in a country like this.

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  3. #3
    Good Enough brownnation's Avatar
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    Glad we have a big old ocean that separates us. Not that we are immune to these kinds of problems (the broader fundie Muslim problem, not necessarily the one outlined in this article), but at least we aren't experiencing the mass culture shock that continental Europe and Great Britain is getting.

    In my opinion they are handling it poorly and appeasing and making crazy concessions to these people. Sharia law and all that bullshit. Thankfully we have a constitution that would prevent that crap. Although, never say never, I suppose.

  4. #4
    Sinner's Swing! graeme's Avatar
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    11.19.17 @ 09:41 AM
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    Quote Originally Posted by brownnation View Post
    Glad we have a big old ocean that separates us. Not that we are immune to these kinds of problems (the broader fundie Muslim problem, not necessarily the one outlined in this article), but at least we aren't experiencing the mass culture shock that continental Europe and Great Britain is getting.

    In my opinion they are handling it poorly and appeasing and making crazy concessions to these people. Sharia law and all that bullshit. Thankfully we have a constitution that would prevent that crap. Although, never say never, I suppose.
    All countries have different problems with cultural migration I guess, but, like i said, this article is only a fraction of the truth on the matter. Obviously, not the whole article has been posted for space sake I would guess, but if you read even just the full text from the link you will see that mistakes had been made and that the "costume requirements" had been removed from websites.

    Europe does have a lot of migration from North Africa (thus mainly Muslim) just as the US does from Mexico. Integration is a problem which is being dealt with more or less well or badly depending on the situation. To the other side of the argument, France has banned the wearing of burkhas and the like in all it's state schools, so I don't think for one second that every country is capitulating to religious demands.

    And, this is nothing new anyway. I remember twenty years ago when (some) Sikhs were demanding that they be exempted from wearing crash helmets on motorbikes because they would have to remove their turbans.

    As for the recent scare about Sharia law being introduced in the UK - that was all so much bullshit. UK criminal law is upon all resident in the UK. That particular piece of hype was to do with civil cases where people had entered into contracts that had then been broken. It has long been the case in the UK that if two people agree, any form of body can deliver a final ruling if that body is the wish of both parties and that they desire the finding to be legally binding. That is what contract is all about.

    Like I said, a lot of overblown rubbish that does nothing to dispel a very serious undercurrent of unease and mistrust in Europe at the moment. In some countries it is better than others and within those countries, in some areas. Cities such as Marseille, Barcelona and Naples are having big problems (Naples has the army on the streets) yet others, such as where i live, seem to be surviving quite well.

    I really believe it is less about religion or nationality than it is about people disliking anything that is not theirs. A quick look at a domestic football match wher idiots beat each other up because they wear different shirts puts that into perspective.

    Not much hope for any of us.
    A man could lose himself in a country like this.

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  5. #5
    Atomic Punk
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    07.24.11 @ 04:36 PM
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    As Graeme says, it's probably not as huge a deal as we might immediately think. Public pools do these sort of segregated sessions based on all sorts of lines, whether they be adult only sessions, mother/daughters only, mothers/infants only whatever. It just strikes a bit of a sharper chord because this particular segregation is based on a racial/ethnic/religious line which always brings up people's shit.

    Tell you what I see as very problematic: letting women wear those bhurkas that cover every bit of their body except for their eyes. They can walk into banks, airports, day cares, anywhere dressed like that and I see that as quite the security issue. I'm actually amazed that more places AREN'T robbed by people wearing those things...which I guess shows that it's not that big a deal so what do I know?
    Stay out of it, dude.


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  6. #6
    Atomic Punk ziggysmalls's Avatar
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    12.14.17 @ 08:08 AM
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    I read a book by the supposed nut job Pat Buchanon back in the early 2000's prior to 9-11. Called Death of the West and it was a really good read. Dealt with the loss of culture that most likely would happen to Europe with the immigration of muslims into that area.

    One advantage the United States has is that the vast majority of its immigration are from Mexico which is predominantly catholic. Therefore they are able to integrate into our culture much easier than what is happening in Europe. Of course the book was ripped apart because this was after the 2000 elections in which Pat helped GW win Florida.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by ziggysmalls View Post
    I read a book by the supposed nut job Pat Buchanon back in the early 2000's prior to 9-11. Called Death of the West and it was a really good read. Dealt with the loss of culture that most likely would happen to Europe with the immigration of muslims into that area.

    One advantage the United States has is that the vast majority of its immigration are from Mexico which is predominantly catholic. Therefore they are able to integrate into our culture much easier than what is happening in Europe. Of course the book was ripped apart because this was after the 2000 elections in which Pat helped GW win Florida.
    Buchanan, for as much of a complete lunatic whackjob as he is, is actually pretty bright and has said somethings that I find myself agreeing with...frighteningly enough.
    Stay out of it, dude.


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  8. #8
    Hang 'Em High jetguy5150's Avatar
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    Here's a question...If I moved to a Muslim country would I be able to get a time at the local pool where I can wear what I consider to be an appropriate swim suit? Just curious what would happen to me.
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  9. #9
    Atomic Punk ziggysmalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetguy5150 View Post
    Here's a question...If I moved to a Muslim country would I be able to get a time at the local pool where I can wear what I consider to be an appropriate swim suit? Just curious what would happen to me.
    A speedo probably would be fine. Maybe a mankini would be stretching it.

    Just expect to maybe have a disagreement with some of the local clergy in some of the countries. However maybe you could convince them to hold a school dance a la Kevin Bacon in Footloose.

  10. #10
    Sinner's Swing! graeme's Avatar
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    11.19.17 @ 09:41 AM
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetguy5150 View Post
    Here's a question...If I moved to a Muslim country would I be able to get a time at the local pool where I can wear what I consider to be an appropriate swim suit? Just curious what would happen to me.
    Good question, which has two answers.
    The first depends on what you consider a Muslim country. The majority are far more moderate than we are led to believe.
    Secondly, there are so many European and US expats in most Mid-east countries that we have developed our own communities where most westerners do exactly as they would in their own countries.

    Funny, very few locals seem to complain.

    Perhaps those brush strokes are too broad but the facilities are in place for many westerners to live a western lifestyle in so many cities.

    ps. I'm not defending or promoting anyone or anyone's beliefs. Just making a point.
    A man could lose himself in a country like this.

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  11. #11
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    it's called "tolerance"...
























































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  12. #12
    Atomic Punk
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    Quote Originally Posted by graeme View Post
    Good question, which has two answers.
    The first depends on what you consider a Muslim country. The majority are far more moderate than we are led to believe.
    Secondly, there are so many European and US expats in most Mid-east countries that we have developed our own communities where most westerners do exactly as they would in their own countries.

    Funny, very few locals seem to complain.

    Perhaps those brush strokes are too broad but the facilities are in place for many westerners to live a western lifestyle in so many cities.

    ps. I'm not defending or promoting anyone or anyone's beliefs. Just making a point.
    pretty accurate post right here folks. Growing up in the shadows of the refineries here in the Houston area, my family knew a bunch of people who lived in the middle east for long stretches. Now, working for a consulting firm that deals with plastics and chemical companies with offices throughout the Muslim world, there are "little USAs" all over the place. Just like here in the US where we have little havanas, italies, polands, germanies, mexicos etc; there are places in UAE, Thailand, Saudi and other countries where you have entire areas that are dominated by westerners who live and dress surprisingly close to how they would stateside.
    Stay out of it, dude.


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  13. #13
    Good Enough brownnation's Avatar
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    Sorry, I just don't buy it. Reports like this aren't singling out or dealing in hyperbole. I know it's not "correct" to say shit like this these days, but the Muslim culture, especially the literalistic, fundamental (which is a good deal of the billion+ around the world) part of the Muslim culture is bullshit and destructive.

    http://abcnews.go.com/International/...8327666&page=1

    Muslim culture is anti-human rights and it is especially destructive to the Muslim women of the world. Our principles of human rights for all and equality and justice for women should supersede any desire to be "fair" to a culture stuck in the middle ages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brownnation View Post
    Sorry, I just don't buy it. Reports like this aren't singling out or dealing in hyperbole. I know it's not "correct" to say shit like this these days, but the Muslim culture, especially the literalistic, fundamental (which is a good deal of the billion+ around the world) part of the Muslim culture is bullshit and destructive.

    http://abcnews.go.com/International/...8327666&page=1

    Muslim culture is anti-human rights and it is especially destructive to the Muslim women of the world. Our principles of human rights for all and equality and justice for women should supersede any desire to be "fair" to a culture stuck in the middle ages.
    though I agree with you in general, I don't necessarily think it's our duty to force a woman to be liberated or accept right she has no interest in.

    Granted, I think all religions should take a backseat to the larger establishment of common sense and objective thinking but I tend to put it all on the individual. If that's the lot in life they're content with living, so be it. If they want to rise up and force social change in their culture, they have just as much right, ability and opportunity as any other second class in the history of the world. History has shown, time and time again, those willing to fight and sacrifice and struggle for "equality" and "rights" tend to receive them. I'm good with letting them work for it instead of the US deciding that our way is the right way and going into countries under the guise of liberating women. Which I think was the weakest most embarassingly pathetic reason given for going into Iraq.
    Stay out of it, dude.


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  15. #15
    Good Enough brownnation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by broken9500 View Post
    though I agree with you in general, I don't necessarily think it's our duty to force a woman to be liberated or accept right she has no interest in.

    Granted, I think all religions should take a backseat to the larger establishment of common sense and objective thinking but I tend to put it all on the individual. If that's the lot in life they're content with living, so be it. If they want to rise up and force social change in their culture, they have just as much right, ability and opportunity as any other second class in the history of the world. History has shown, time and time again, those willing to fight and sacrifice and struggle for "equality" and "rights" tend to receive them. I'm good with letting them work for it instead of the US deciding that our way is the right way and going into countries under the guise of liberating women. Which I think was the weakest most embarassingly pathetic reason given for going into Iraq.
    Yeah, I guess I disagree with you there. I think human rights and dignity are inalienable. I further disagree with your premise that it is the responsibility of a person who is being indoctrinated in a culture and/or religion, without the possibility of exposure to critical thinking or guided by other strands of philosophical beliefs are supposed to just inherently rise up against a system of life which is all they know.

    But we can disagree with all that and still agree that they should keep that backward-ass thinking contained within their own countries of governance. The second they bring that shit into "western" countries, that bullshit is no longer acceptable and they need to live under the law of their new home, not some antiquated horseshit.

    Edit: And furthermore, the western countries should have the courage of their convictions and principles that they are supposedly built on and reject these thoughts.
    Last edited by brownnation; 08.18.09 at 04:05 PM. Reason: addendum

 

 

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