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  1. #1
    Atomic Punk Wruff_ajax's Avatar
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    Default Violence Absolute - War in Afghanistan/Pakistan

    Afghanistan has stymied would-be conquerors since Alexander the Great. I remember watching what happened to the Soviet Union when I was a kid. It’s always the same story; the invaders — British, Soviets — control the cities, but not the countryside. And eventually, the invaders don’t even control the cities, wind up broke and broken.
    The 21st century's brought more of the same, only on a grander scale than ever before.

    Now it's Obama's war. He's sent in more troops and we're on the offensive again in Afghanistan and Pakistan now too. Can he succeed in that long-lamented “graveyard of empires” — a place that has crushed foreign occupiers for more than 2,000 years?
    The war is only spreading, and as you can see from the video posted below I don't think our methods are exactly winning the hearts and minds of the local populations.


    Warning - Extreme violence. Holy shit.
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  2. #2
    Atomic Punk
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    07.24.11 @ 04:36 PM
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    now why are we at war in the middle east again?
    Stay out of it, dude.


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  3. #3
    Sinner's Swing! graeme's Avatar
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    11.19.17 @ 09:41 AM
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    I'll stay out of politics on this one...

    I'm not sure but I think that the British forces have had their worst month of casualties since the invasion - seems like at least one or two a day are announced dead on the news lately.

    They are woefully under-manned and under-equipped (helicopters being the big problem recently) and there seems to be no overall strategy.

    I saw a documentary on UK TV where an embedded journo went with a British contingent to some pretty front line hell hole. They fought for a week. Then when they had secured "the vital town", losing a comrade or two (at least badly injured) they were told to pull out and return back, leaving the town undefended and ready to welcome it's former occupants back.

    There must be a word that sums up disbelief, shock, anger, desperate unhappiness and frustration but I can't think of it offhand. The looks on the soldiers faces when they received their orders would make such a word redundant, anyway.

    If I can remember the name of the doc, I will post a link.

    And no. We will never win in Afghanistan. Regardless of anyone's opinions about them as men, these guys are the bravest, most resourceful and resilient fighters on the planet and they absolutely do not give a fuck about dying. I think Prince Harry made a similar remark on his return.

    He would have used more swear words than me though.
    A man could lose himself in a country like this.

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  4. #4
    Atomic Punk
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    07.24.11 @ 04:36 PM
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    way I see it, as long as they have Rambo on their side, I don't see how anyone can win...better to just wait for him to die...on his own. If Rambo doesn't die, perhaps we need to enlist Chuck The Norris to go in...though doing so may cause a black hole to appear when the two of them face off.
    Stay out of it, dude.


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  5. #5
    Atomic Punk Wruff_ajax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by broken9500 View Post

    now why are we at war in the middle east again?

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  6. #6
    Atomic Punk
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    05.31.14 @ 08:17 PM
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    This is going to be interesting.

    A large force in Afghanistan isn't the way to go when you consider that our objectives in that country are to stand up a government and an army that can defend itself. A large force means that Afghans see Americans more often, and that reminds them that there are occupation forces in their land. That starts to wear thin.

    We need to tread lightly, and to keep our forces out on the frontier deep in the mountains out of sight of most of the population. We guard the remote mountain passes and valleys along the Pakistan border and hit Taliban and Al Qaeda bases in that country.

    The problem with the Soviets was that they were their own worst enemy. The Red Army taking fire from a remote Afghan village? No problem, level it and kill everyone who lives there. Problem solved. What? The dead villagers belong to a larger tribe up the valley, and their pissed off? Fuck'em, level their villages too, kill their live stock and poison their drinking water. Hmm? Too harsh? Okay, pull the village elder down to the road and run his ass over with a tank, if the tribe still doesn't get the message then kill all the males who are between 10 and 30 (military age). If the women have a problem with that, rape 'em...or shoot them, I don't care.

    The Soviets were a walking recuitment advertisement for Jihad. They were so bad that the Saudis were willing to work with Israel to arm the Mujahideen.

    On the flip side, Afghanistan sucks, the people of Afghanistan suck, and it's only a matter of time before it gets ugly for US forces there. I have met a lot of military folks as they come into town to attend DLI. Most say that they would rather go to Iraq than Afghanistan because you can trust Iraqis more than than you can Afghanis. US soldiers become quickly frustrated by the locals because they say one thing to your face, and another behind your back. Read "Not a Good Day to Die" by Sean Naylor, or "Kill Bin Laden" by Dalton Furry, or "Jawbreaker", by Gary Berntsen. You'll flip when you read how the local scumbag warlords and tribal leaders undermine our efforts at almost every turn.

    Now we are not there to bring Afghanistan under US control, but that message is being lost to the message of the Taliban. The Taliban has free reign inside of Pakistan because (in spite of all their lies about helping us), they would rather have the Taliban in Afghanistan than in their own country. Pakistan is fucking us, but we can't do much about it because that would mean invading that country too. So we hit AQ and Taliban targets with drones, and Pakistan pretends to be upset about it.

    So the ultimate questions become: Is Afghanistan worth more American lives? If so, how many? What will success look like? How many Afghans and Pakistanis are we willing to kill before we start to feel bad about it?


    You cannot compare the US/NATO experience in Afghanistan to the Soviet Invasion or the English adventures. Read Kipling, it's all about the British in Afghanistan and India. They are ill-equipped and their officer corps was largely a bunch of drunks. The British did okay, but in the era that they were there their forces had to move on foot or by horseback, as did their Afghan enemies, and the landscape of that country favors the locals. The Soviets just used brute force because dead people don't resist.

    REMEMBER: We are in Afghanistan because Al Qaeda was able to set up sophisticated training camps to train operators in the balck arts of terror. We told the Taliban to give up Al Qaeda members to US authorities. The Taliban told us to shove it, so we did - right up their ass.
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  7. #7
    Atomic Punk ziggysmalls's Avatar
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    12.13.17 @ 05:06 AM
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    The problem is that we are not fighting a war. We are nation building and there is no blueprint to do that successfully. After WW2, Japan and Germany were so pissed off at their previous management, they pretty much welcomed us with open arms. Same goes for the Kurds and the majority of the Sunni's in Iraq. Shiites are a different story since they are aligned with Iran. With Afghanistan, they don't care. They think in the short term so one day the Taliban are ok and then next, they are friends with NATO.

    It's a losing cause because outside of the involvement in 9-11, there is nothing to be gained from being there outside of disrupting potential terror cells.

  8. #8
    Atomic Punk Wruff_ajax's Avatar
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    12.12.17 @ 11:14 PM
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    Nation building. Strange how the US gov has rewritten the rules of war and sovereignty. How kind. Now invading foreign lands and waging war isn't war, it's nation building.
    Nation building used to be the agenda of a developing nation to build it's infrastructure and establish its national identity after a war or colonial powers had withdrawn. Now it's simply the means of foreign invaders to wage war and establish their own centers of power in regions through warfare, overthrow, and complete and permanent military control.


    Militaristic exploitation colonialism or imperialism or nation building or whatever. Our military rule and executives and agents and laws and twisted justice and power structure are permanent. Not to mention the killing and the dead and scars and the wounds that never heal.
    Nation building. And that's what we're doing in Afghanistan and Pakistan now. Who the hell are we kidding. We've been killing with little prejudice in Afghanistan for 8 years now, not to mention Iraq, and Pakistan now too. We've gone mad.


    I caught this short video about nation building last night.



    And 1!!



    We really need to bring these guys home and end this policy of perpetual preemptive war. It's gonna end bad. Real bad.
    Last edited by Wruff_ajax; 07.28.09 at 02:25 PM.
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  9. #9
    Atomic Punk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wruff_ajax View Post

    We really need to bring these guys home and end this policy of perpetual preemptive war. It's gonna end bad. Real bad.
    I couldn't agree more...
    Stay out of it, dude.


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  10. #10
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    05.31.14 @ 08:17 PM
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    Are you guys kidding?

    The 9/11 hijackers all trained in Afghanistan. When asked diplomatically to surrender Al Qaeda members the Taliban - WHO THEMSELVES INVADED AFGHANISTAN FROM PAKISTAN - told us that they supported Al Qaeda.

    Assholes in Afghanistan STARTED this war, not in the Hindu kush, but in downtown Manhattan. We haven't gone mad , we are clean up the pig shit.

    Never forget this:

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5c0_1189475004

    This happened because we turned a blind eye to the real fucking world. It happened because we listen to the bed-wetters who cry that the US isn't the world's policeman. The reality of that day is that you can be a nice guy, and you will still get a fist in the ass.

    To quote Navy SEAL, Roy Boehm:

    "Fuck the fucking fuckers before they fucking fuck you".

    "Nothing is ever what it seems but everything is exactly what it is." - B. Banzai


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  11. #11
    Atomic Punk Little Dreamer's Avatar
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    12.12.17 @ 10:26 PM
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    Axx, we know why it happened. But sometimes a situation can be so complex that there is no solution to the problem. Not everything can be solved.

    Some young men and women in uniform might die for years to come on the dusty roads of Kandahar and Kabul, and for what?

    Maybe a policy of containment would be better advised. Yeah, it doesn't sound as "manly" as war, but sometimes produces better results. I'd say also find a way to drop the price of opium, and then the local warlords will be hard pressed to fund their militias, including the Talibans.

    I think another approach would be possible focusing on the economy more.
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  12. #12
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    08.07.17 @ 08:14 PM
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    A stepson of a guy I work with just arrived in Afghanistan a few days ago...

    I'll tell ya what, I hope he returns safely as well as all of our other soldiers...

    Things get a little clearer perspective when someone you actually know goes into battle...
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  13. #13
    Atomic Punk Wruff_ajax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
    Are you guys kidding?

    The 9/11 hijackers all trained in Afghanistan. When asked diplomatically to surrender Al Qaeda members the Taliban - WHO THEMSELVES INVADED AFGHANISTAN FROM PAKISTAN - told us that they supported Al Qaeda.

    Assholes in Afghanistan STARTED this war, not in the Hindu kush, but in downtown Manhattan. We haven't gone mad , we are clean up the pig shit.

    Never forget this:

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5c0_1189475004

    This happened because we turned a blind eye to the real fucking world. It happened because we listen to the bed-wetters who cry that the US isn't the world's policeman. The reality of that day is that you can be a nice guy, and you will still get a fist in the ass.

    To quote Navy SEAL, Roy Boehm:

    "Fuck the fucking fuckers before they fucking fuck you".

    Not one single person involved in the 9/11 attacks were in the Taliban. All but one of those hijackers and Osama himself are Saudi. The other from the United Arab Emirates. Yet our invasion forces in Afghanistan, which will swell easily beyond 100,000 troops this year as we switch our deploy demands from Iraq to our war in Afghanistan, are at war with a ruling tribe of people because they wouldn't hand over the Saudi Al Qaeda guy Osama that supposedly brought down those buildings on 9/11?
    Did the Taliban train those hijackers for 9/11? I don't think so.
    Are the cave-dwelling Taliban a world-wide terrorist organization responsible for the planning and execution of attacks on the US in 2001 and around the world for many years? No.
    The Taliban are a political movement of ethnic Pashtuns from southern Afghanistan and western Pakistan. The Taliban didn't bring down those buildings.
    The Taliban’s leaders knew nothing of 9/11, a plot actually hatched in Germany. When the U.S. demanded bin Laden be handed over, the Taliban refused: He was a guest and national hero, wounded six times in the US funded anti-Soviet struggle. The Taliban offered to send bin Laden to an international tribunal once the U.S. presented evidence of his involvement. Washington refused and invaded, blaming the Taliban for 9/11.

    World police. There weren't even any Al Qaeda in Iraq until AFTER we invaded in '03.

    Speaking of Iraq and world police. The assessment of the al Qaeda connection and the insistence that Hussein had weapons of mass destruction were two primary elements in the Bush administration's arguments in favor of going to war with Iraq. We all said "Yeah, yeah fuck those fuckers before they fuck us!!".

    The U.S. military's study released by the Pentagon looking into ties between Saddam Hussein's Iraq and al Qaeda showed no connection between the two.

    The Pentagon's report also contradicts then-Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, who said in September 2002 that the CIA provided "bulletproof" evidence demonstrating "that there are, in fact, al Qaeda in Iraq."

    In 2005, the CIA released a report saying that no weapons of mass destruction had been found in Iraq.

    I don't know why people still eat the shit they feed us when they're so obviously full of shit lies. It's a con. This administration no different from the last. After 8 years of war just another offensive and more troops. Another big advance/withdraw operation like graeme alluded to in his post. Same as years ago after the post-9/11 invasion. Wasn't it a few years ago shortly after the invasion we were boasting over our big "defeat" of the Taliban? They'll never be defeated. They just blend in to the scenery and come back stronger and smarter than before. Like they've done. And here we are. We'll never control Afghanistan.

    Remember this headline 7 years ago?

    U.S. Formally Announces Defeat of Taliban
    January 30, 2002
    The United States on Tuesday formally announced that the Taliban has been completely defeated and can no longer control any territory in Afghanistan.


    Maybe we can draw some comparisons between the US and previous would-be conquerors in Afghanistan after all.

    Afghanistan. Osama Bin Laden hiding in a cave. Right. We're probably keeping him in a penthouse somewhere.
    I remember a few years ago how victory in Afghanistan was Bin Laden's head on a platter. Everybody sign up, get your gun, and go kill Osama! Truth is the US gov didn't want him officially dead or captured. He's too important to our war in the region and selling it to the American people. After 8 years though he's not so important. People really don't even give a shit about him anymore.
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  14. #14
    Super Duper Frontman track 5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wruff_ajax View Post
    Nation building. Strange how the US gov has rewritten the rules of war and sovereignty. How kind. Now invading foreign lands and waging war isn't war, it's nation building.
    Nation building used to be the agenda of a developing nation to build it's infrastructure and establish its national identity after a war or colonial powers had withdrawn. Now it's simply the means of foreign invaders to wage war and establish their own centers of power in regions through warfare, overthrow, and complete and permanent military control.


    Militaristic exploitation colonialism or imperialism or nation building or whatever. Our military rule and executives and agents and laws and twisted justice and power structure are permanent. Not to mention the killing and the dead and scars and the wounds that never heal.
    Nation building. And that's what we're doing in Afghanistan and Pakistan now. Who the hell are we kidding. We've been killing with little prejudice in Afghanistan for 8 years now, not to mention Iraq, and Pakistan now too. We've gone mad.


    I caught this short video about nation building last night.



    And 1!!



    We really need to bring these guys home and end this policy of perpetual preemptive war. It's gonna end bad. Real bad.

    Those vids were pretty cool. Out.
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  15. #15
    Super Duper Frontman track 5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
    Are you guys kidding?


    Assholes in Afghanistan STARTED this war, not in the Hindu kush, but in downtown Manhattan. We haven't gone mad , we are clean up the pig shit.

    Never forget this:

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5c0_1189475004

    To quote Navy SEAL, Roy Boehm:

    "Fuck the fucking fuckers before they fucking fuck you".

    Easy on the language there, AXX. There are kids that read here. Out.
    Quin-a-se-i-co

    You're a dick for putting ian on "ignore" DIF

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