Follow us on...
Follow us on Twitter Follow us on Facebook Watch us on YouTube
Register
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 28
  1. #1
    Atomic Punk
    Join Date
    01.29.02
    Age
    49
    Location
    somewhere over the rainbow
    Posts
    22,946
    Last Online

    12.11.17 @ 04:37 PM
    Likes
    842
    Liked 1,229 Times in 448 Posts

    Default The Great Ethanol Scam

    "Over at BusinessWeek, Ed Wallace is creating quite a stir, reporting that not only is ethanol proving to be a dud as a fuel substitute, but there is increasing evidence that it is destroying engines in large numbers. Before lobbyists convince the government to increase the allowable amount of ethanol in fuel to 15%, Wallace suggests it's time to look at ethanol's effect on smog, fuel efficiency, global warming emissions, and food prices. Wallace concedes there will be some winners if the government moves the ethanol mandate to 15% — auto mechanics, for whom he says it will be the dawn of a new golden age."

    http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyl...514_058678.htm
    "Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.” -- Gen. George S. Patton

  2. #2
    Future's in the past....
    Join Date
    03.03.08
    Age
    51
    Location
    Somewhere between here and there
    Posts
    13,090
    Favorite VH Album

    WACF, FW, DD
    Favorite VH Song

    At the moment, Little Guitars
    Last Online

    11.03.17 @ 01:35 PM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts

    Default

    Yep, the fuels out there these days have up to 10% ethanol. Ask me what that does to the parts of a carburetor that weren't designed to handle ethanol. A rebuild is in the near future, and the carb was only rebuilt a couple of years ago.
    11/05/78 Hollywood Sportatorium
    12/10/82 Hollywood Sportatorium
    01/20/84 Hollywood Sportatorium
    01/21/84 Hollywood Sportatorium
    02/16/08 Jacksonville Veterans Memorial Arena

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    I've got dreams in hidden places and extra smiles for when I'm blue.

  3. #3
    Good Enough Ace Ventura's Avatar
    Join Date
    01.07.04
    Age
    47
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    2,013
    Favorite VH Album

    Fair Warning
    Favorite VH Song

    So this is love?
    Last Online

    01.01.13 @ 04:06 PM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Default

    It costs almost twice as much to refine ethanol than it does to refine regular gasoline. So it begs the obvious question, why waste double the amout of energy and resources to create a fuel that is less efficient? Oh, hold on a minute... I know this one...... BECAUSE IT'S A GOVERNMENT IDEA!!!!!
    "It doesn't mean that much to me to mean that much to you..." -Neil Young

    "The sun's not yellow, it's chicken." -Bob Dylan

    "If you go out and buy a Van Halen record and put it in your collection, it'll melt your other records." -David Lee Roth, 1981.

    Guy of Gisborne: Why a spoon, cousin? Why not an axe?
    Sheriff of Nottingham: Because it's DULL, you twit!!! It'll HURT MORE!!!

  4. #4
    Good Enough
    Join Date
    02.17.00
    Posts
    1,710
    Last Online

    12.10.17 @ 12:26 PM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 37 Times in 19 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Ventura View Post
    It costs almost twice as much to refine ethanol than it does to refine regular gasoline. So it begs the obvious question, why waste double the amout of energy and resources to create a fuel that is less efficient? Oh, hold on a minute... I know this one...... BECAUSE IT'S A GOVERNMENT IDEA!!!!!

    No...Because it's the precursor to the development of bio-fuels made from inputs other than corn or other food-stuffs (Agri-business is the biggest winner with ethanol and continues to lobby for huge government subsidies for its production and mandated usage). Examples of these other less desirable inputs would include municipal wastes often placed in land fills, willow trees, hemp, sage grass, scrap wood, sugar cane, etc.. Probably the biggest potential lies in creating bio-fuels via genetically altered algae that actually creates the fuel by using otherwise released carbon dioxide gas. Is ethanol hugely inefficient? Yes, as it currently is processed. That is about to change drastically. Especially when the otherwise subsidized price of gasoline returns to 3-4 dollar per gallon prices.

    Bio-fuels along with plug-in hybrid vehicles will soon transform the way we power our vehicles. And Bio-fuels produced on a large scale, in an efficient manner, with inputs produced right in America, is one of the best ways to enhance our national security. And besides powering your vehicle, you can also use it in place of #2 Fuel oil in your furnace or boiler. It's already happening in many places around the country. About ten miles from where I'm typing this in fact......

  5. #5
    Atomic Punk Wruff_ajax's Avatar
    Join Date
    03.15.03
    Location
    US of America
    Posts
    8,889
    Favorite VH Album

    =VH= II
    Last Online

    12.15.17 @ 12:40 PM
    Likes
    746
    Liked 797 Times in 382 Posts


    Premium Member

    Default

    Devoting our food crops to make fuel for cars/furnaces/etc in a world short on food is just stupid. Ethanol is an extremely impractical form of energy. The effects of this government subsidized shift towards ethanol dependence will be devastating in so many ways. Already food prices are soaring globally due to the shift to ethanol. It's far more profitable for farmers to produce crops for ethanol than for food, and farmers are making the shift en mass globally.

    Soaring food prices—and resulting riots—have leaders around the world raising alarms about possible consequences. “We are going through a very serious crisis and we are going to see lots of food strikes and demonstrations,” warned former UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan.
    The UN World Food Programme (WFP) predicts a “silent tsunami” in which high food prices across the globe could force as many as 100 million people into hunger.

    According to statistics from the United States Department of Agriculture, the price of corn doubled between 2005 and 2007, with U.S. production of corn-based ethanol held to blame.



    Rising food prices = poverty, starvation, riots, political destabilization, war, etc...
    _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_

  6. #6
    Good Enough pal1800's Avatar
    Join Date
    10.30.07
    Age
    46
    Location
    Mandeville, LA
    Posts
    1,731
    Favorite VH Album

    Too hard to choose
    Favorite VH Song

    Too hard to choose
    Last Online

    06.02.16 @ 09:13 AM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Remember my Green friends, there is always a reaction for every action, even if it is unintended. When this issue is de-politicized, then we will be on the road to a reasonable solution. Until then, enjoy the insanity.

  7. #7
    Sinner's Swing! graeme's Avatar
    Join Date
    01.27.03
    Age
    10
    Location
    Dusseldorf, Germany.
    Posts
    3,946
    Favorite VH Album

    They're all shit
    Last Online

    11.19.17 @ 09:41 AM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 34 Times in 20 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wruff_ajax View Post
    Devoting our food crops to make fuel for cars/furnaces/etc in a world short on food is just stupid. Ethanol is an extremely impractical form of energy. The effects of this government subsidized shift towards ethanol dependence will be devastating in so many ways. Already food prices are soaring globally due to the shift to ethanol. It's far more profitable for farmers to produce crops for ethanol than for food, and farmers are making the shift en mass globally.

    Soaring food prices—and resulting riots—have leaders around the world raising alarms about possible consequences. “We are going through a very serious crisis and we are going to see lots of food strikes and demonstrations,” warned former UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan.
    The UN World Food Programme (WFP) predicts a “silent tsunami” in which high food prices across the globe could force as many as 100 million people into hunger.

    According to statistics from the United States Department of Agriculture, the price of corn doubled between 2005 and 2007, with U.S. production of corn-based ethanol held to blame.



    Rising food prices = poverty, starvation, riots, political destabilization, war, etc...
    I admit firstly to not knowing too much about the efficiencey of ethanol, but I have always found this comment by Kofi very odd.

    I'll explain why I think so. Farmers have indeed shifted production and that has raised food prices as the supply has weakened ... all true.

    But, whilst fossil fuels are in short supply, land is most certainly not, even land capable of sustaining crops. The problems of food shortages and rising prices etc are not because ethanol production will take away from food production, it is only because it has because the infrastructure is not yet in place - ie. More land devoted to production of fuel AS WELL AS food.

    As usual, IMHO, it is short sighted, quick fixes that are going to cause such problems. If the leaders actually sat down and worked out a medium term plan for more bio-fuel production, without giving greedy landowners the opportunity to jump onto the profit bandwagon before everything was in place, there really is some hope that both could be done with ease. And I don't blame the farmers for this either.

    And anyway, perhaps more importantly - there is not a food shortage in the world. There is a food shortage in certain parts of the world. I guarantee, what the average "western" family throws away in a week is enough to feed another, less fortunate family, for a good portion of that week. And the capacity to double or treble world food production is all there. But there's no money in that i guess.

    I was always told that economics was all about supply and demand. The longer i live, I realise that is only the beginning of the equation.


    Rant over, but this kind of thing makes me a little sick at best.
    A man could lose himself in a country like this.

    My blog at http://tollins.blogspot.de/

  8. #8
    Atomic Punk Wruff_ajax's Avatar
    Join Date
    03.15.03
    Location
    US of America
    Posts
    8,889
    Favorite VH Album

    =VH= II
    Last Online

    12.15.17 @ 12:40 PM
    Likes
    746
    Liked 797 Times in 382 Posts


    Premium Member

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by graeme View Post

    But, whilst fossil fuels are in short supply, land is most certainly not.
    Deforestation is not a solution.

    ''There's a lot of deforestation certainly going to take place in tropical regions, because those countries are going to develop biofuel businesses,'' he said. ''Already in Malaysia, Indonesia, the Philippines, the acreage of palm oil is extending very rapidly because palm oil can be converted to biodiesel with a very low capital investment."
    Chris Somerville, professor of biological sciences at Stanford University and director of the Carnegie Institution's Department of Plant Biology.

    - The grain required to fill the petrol tank of a Range Rover with ethanol is sufficient to feed one person per year. Assuming the petrol tank is refilled every two weeks, the amount of grain required would feed a hungry African village for a year.

    - Much of the fuel that Europeans use will be imported from Brazil, where the Amazon is being burned to plant more sugar and soybeans, and Southeast Asia, where oil palm plantations are destroying the rainforest habitat of orangutans and many other species. Species are dying for our driving

    - If ethanol is imported from the US, it will likely come from maize, which uses fossil fuels at every stage in the production process, from cultivation using fertilisers and tractors to processing and transportation. Growing maize appears to use 30% more energy than the finished fuel produces, and leaves eroded soils and polluted waters behind

    - Meeting the 5.75% target would require, according to one authoritative study, a quarter of the EU's arable land.

    - Using ethanol rather than petrol reduces total emissions of carbon dioxide by only about 13% because of the pollution caused by the production process, and because ethanol gets only about 70% of the mileage of petrol.

    - Food prices are already increasing. With just 10% of the world's sugar harvest being converted to ethanol, the price of sugar has doubled; the price of palm oil has increased 15% over the past year, with a further 25% gain expected next year.



    There is already a dire fresh water shortage in the world. Ethanol contributes very negatively to an already growing problem.
    For each gallon of ethanol produced, typical ethanol plants consume 3.5 to 6 gallons of water and produce 12 gallons of sewage-like effluent in the fermentation and distillation process. Syrup, batches of bad ethanol, and sewage are dumped into streams, threatening fish and plants with chloride, copper and other wastes which deprive waters of oxygen when they decompose. A state inspector in Iowa reported that a creek next to the ethanol plant in Sioux Center was milky and smelled like sewage.



    Ethanol costs three and a half times as much as gasoline to produce and contains only 60% as much energy per gallon as gasoline.
    http://www.energyjustice.net/ethanol/factsheet.html
    _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_

  9. #9
    Sinner's Swing! graeme's Avatar
    Join Date
    01.27.03
    Age
    10
    Location
    Dusseldorf, Germany.
    Posts
    3,946
    Favorite VH Album

    They're all shit
    Last Online

    11.19.17 @ 09:41 AM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 34 Times in 20 Posts

    Default

    Thanks for posting all that wruff. Like i said, I have no info or expertise on the validitiy of ethanol as an efficient alternative, so good to seee some facts and figures.

    My beef is more with the broad sweeping ideas that any bio fuels are a waste of time because of a deemed necessary shift away from food production.

    And of course, deforestation is most certainly not the answer. But there is a lot of decent arable land the world over that could sustain whatever production ... It's just, as always, a case of where. Unfortunately the major players are not always in control of said resources.

    As a very childish example: Every garden in a major industrialised nation had a vegetable plot. Imagine the possibilities of such a simple venture. And that is my point - ain't going to happen because it might just lose some multi-national mafia a few billion.

    I despair of a race that is afforded such a resource rich planet and decides to argue about minor points and screw each other over instead, to the detriment, not only of each other, but also of our planet.

    This argument is not about bio-fuels vs food or anything else. It is, as usual, about a big cash grab and anything that loses the loudest voices a slice of their profits will be discounted, by whatever means and however plausible or even humanitarian they sound.
    A man could lose himself in a country like this.

    My blog at http://tollins.blogspot.de/

  10. #10
    Atomic Punk edwardv's Avatar
    Join Date
    12.13.01
    Age
    59
    Location
    hanover pennsylvania
    Posts
    10,038
    Favorite VH Album

    diver down
    Favorite VH Song

    drop dead legs
    Last Online

    12.15.17 @ 02:42 PM
    Likes
    4,487
    Liked 2,387 Times in 1,489 Posts


    Premium Member

    Default

    I agree ethanol was a scam both in the economic sense, farming sense and science wise. The sad thing is alot of farmers invested their life savings in the economics of it. To now hear it is destroying engines is very alarming.
    EVH 1979: Well, actually it's not much of a vacation, because we run everything ourselves. We design our own album cover, we have to be in the office every day to sign checks - the whole corporation revolves around us. Nothing can be done without our approval. We even have photo approval.

  11. #11
    Atomic Punk Wruff_ajax's Avatar
    Join Date
    03.15.03
    Location
    US of America
    Posts
    8,889
    Favorite VH Album

    =VH= II
    Last Online

    12.15.17 @ 12:40 PM
    Likes
    746
    Liked 797 Times in 382 Posts


    Premium Member

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by graeme
    Thanks for posting all that wruff. Like i said, I have no info or expertise on the validitiy of ethanol as an efficient alternative, so good to seee some facts and figures.
    Hi graeme. Yeah I'm surely no expert either. Just trying to learn some about it.

    I was reading some sobering info earlier about what you were saying about the "cash grab" aspect of this whole thing. I couldn't find it again, but here's some other financial aspects of our government subsidized "ethanol euphoria" and costs to US taxpayers.

    Just what are the subsidies costing the U.S. taxpayer?
    In 2006, the feds paid ethanol blenders $2.5 billion and ethanol corn farmers $0.9 billion. The U.S. paid an extra $3.6 billion at the pump. Total was $2.21 extra per gallon of gasoline replaced. Of all that, $5.4 billion went for windfall profits creating what USDA’s chief economist called “ethanol euphoria”.

    Also, subsidized corn results in higher prices for meat, milk and eggs because about 70 percent of corn grain is fed to livestock and poultry in the United States. Increasing ethanol production would further inflate corn prices. According to this study by Cornell university: “In addition to paying tax dollars for ethanol subsidies, consumers will be paying significantly higher food prices in the marketplace”. Well, no doubt all of us are paying more for our food this year.

    Are ethanol subsidies necessary to “level the playing field?” Petroleum subsidies are something less than $1 billion a year – six to eight times less than ethanol subsidies – and work out to about 0.3 cents per gallon.

    The biggest single ethanol subsidy is the Volumetric Ethanol Excise Tax Credit, VEECT, which grants a tax credit to blenders who combine ethanol with gasoline, in the amount of 51 cents per gallon of pure ethanol blended. Also, don’t forget the federal mandated Energy Policy Act of 2005 which, requires that 4.0 billion gallons of renewable fuels in 2006 and 7.5 billion gallons in 2007 be used. There are also “significant direct agricultural subsidies for farmers that reduce their water, fuel, and other costs below market”.

    A report issued by The International Institute for Sustainable Development (IISD) has estimated that such subsidies currently sum to $1.05 to $1.38 per gallon of ethanol. or 42 percent to 55 percent of ethanol’s wholesale market price. This means the economic value of the resources that are used to produce a gallon of ethanol are nearly 50% greater than the value of the product to the consumers.
    http://chemicallygreen.com/truth-abo...nol-subsidies/
    _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_

  12. #12
    Wear the fox hat... Filthy 150's Avatar
    Join Date
    10.13.03
    Location
    Right here.
    Posts
    4,121
    Favorite VH Album

    5150
    Favorite VH Song

    Drop Dead Legs
    Last Online

    10.16.17 @ 11:43 AM
    Likes
    31
    Liked 17 Times in 10 Posts


    Premium Member

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by graeme View Post

    But, whilst fossil fuels are in short supply, land is most certainly not, even land capable of sustaining crops.
    Fossil fuels are not in short supply.
    "Here's to swimmin' with bow legged women."
    Quint- Boat Captain
    --------------------------------------------------


    "As God as my witness...I thought turkeys could fly"
    Arthur Carlson- Radio Station GM
    --------------------------------------------------


    "I think you're all fucked in the head. We're ten hours from the fucking fun park, and you wanna bail out! Well, I'll tell you something, this is no longer a vacation . . . it's a quest! It's a quest for fun! I'm gonna have fun, and you're gonna have fun! We're all gonna have so much fucking fun we'll need plastic surgery to remove our Goddamn smiles! You'll be whistling Zip-a-dee-doo-da out of your assholes! "
    Clark W. Griswold- Food Additive Designer
    ---------------------------------------------------


    VIVA TEXAS LINKERS WEEKEND!
    Round I = Done!
    Round II = Done!
    Round III = Done!
    Round IV = Done!
    Round V = Done!
    Round VI = Done!
    Round VII = Done!
    Round VIII = Done!

  13. #13
    Baluchitherium
    Join Date
    07.23.02
    Age
    41
    Location
    Annapolis, MD
    Posts
    5,445
    Favorite VH Album

    F.U.C.K.
    Favorite VH Song

    W/O U, WIL, & HFT
    Last Online

    12.15.17 @ 05:52 AM
    Likes
    98
    Liked 433 Times in 167 Posts


    Donor

    Default

    Last summer when gas was around $4/gal I tried E85 (85% ethanol) in my Dodge truck since it is a flex fuel vehicle. My mileage plummeted from around 17 miles/gal to approximately 13 miles/gal. Even with the E85 costing less than the crude oil I put in my truck, it cost more to run it with E85 than regular gasoline. Hence, using corn as a fuel is a helluva lot less efficient than stuffing old dinosaurs in your gas tank. That was the only time I have used E85 in my truck.

    I have a question - are all these engines that are getting ruined by higher ethanol contant gasoline regular engines?? Then I blame it on the dumbass owners. Maybe its ignorance on their part, but only engines made for gasoline/E85 can use E85 regulary.
    Rock the Red!!!

    "Give Doc the shotgun. They're less apt to get nervy if he's on the street howitzer."

    "Dying ain't much of a living, boy."

    Save a Terrapin - Fear a Turtle

  14. #14
    Hot For Teacher Kula's Avatar
    Join Date
    12.06.01
    Location
    Milwaukee, WI
    Posts
    248
    Favorite VH Album

    Fair Warning
    Favorite VH Song

    Yeah, that's an easy one!
    Last Online

    02.16.16 @ 12:09 PM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Buschman View Post
    I have a question - are all these engines that are getting ruined by higher ethanol contant gasoline regular engines?? Then I blame it on the dumbass owners. Maybe its ignorance on their part, but only engines made for gasoline/E85 can use E85 regulary.
    From what I've seen, and heard, it's the 10% ethanol in regular gas that is f-ing up engines... (obviously, there's probably idiots out there trying to use E-85 in their regular tanks, but that's the exception).

    F'd up fuel injectors, TERRIBLE mileage, and completely hosed engines, over time.

    Not to mention the waste of energy it takes to make it as opposed to just using regular gas.

    YES - I KNOW WE NEED AN ALTERNATIVE SOLUTION AT SOME POINT (SOON), BUT ETHANOL IS NOT IT!!! At least not in it's current form of use and efficiency, etc.

  15. #15
    Hang 'Em High sickman's Avatar
    Join Date
    03.13.04
    Posts
    6,170
    Favorite VH Album

    Complete Zero
    Favorite VH Song

    Lets Get Rockin
    Last Online

    12.15.17 @ 03:21 AM
    Likes
    548
    Liked 1,862 Times in 731 Posts


    Donor

    Default

    Maybe they can someday figure out how to turn stem cells into fuel.
    I used to jog but the ice cubes kept falling out of my glass.

 

 

Similar Threads

  1. Ethanol Causing a Food Shortage
    By VanHalenRocks in forum VH Fans Meeting Place (Non-Music)
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 05.03.08, 10:01 AM
  2. US Farmers Show Grass Makes Better Ethanol than Corn
    By voivod in forum VH Fans Meeting Place (Non-Music)
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 01.10.08, 12:58 PM
  3. Another Ebay scam?
    By nobozos in forum Guitar Room
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 12.20.07, 09:08 PM
  4. Another E-Bay scam artist.
    By Prages in forum Guitar Room
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 10.04.02, 07:44 AM
  5. Is this tape a scam?
    By MightyVanHalen in forum Main VH Discussion
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 02.26.01, 06:45 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •