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  1. #1
    Eruption Executionor's Avatar
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    03.03.15 @ 08:24 PM
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    The automakers still don't get it my opinion.

    The title says "Best of Detroit 3"

    I really don't think the US automakers get what what the "mom and pop" drivers out here need. Right now, need wins out over want.

    At this stage of my life, I, like many of my friends, need something like a mini-van to haul our 3 to 4 kids around somewhat comfortably. Below is a link to what the automakers believe will pull them out of the "doldrums". I realize there will be a small market for the cars listed, but they need to be catering to the bigger crowds. Along with the lack of particular type of vehicle, the price takes most of my friends out of the running. We aren't a bunch of poor bastards that cannot afford nothing at all, but it just doesn't seem right to spend $30 - $50,000 on a vehicle. Out of these 5 listed, the Taurus seems the closest to what we could use, but with 3 children, that would be crowded. I also am guessing, but I bet it would run about $25,000 to $30,000 and that is just ridiculous. Just my opinion. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have a 2010 FORD Shelby GT500KR, even if it was priced simply at inflation from a 1970, but the price has been ultra inflated. No way this $80,000/year family is gonna grab one. I really still don't think they get it.

    http://autos.yahoo.com/auto-shows/de...-the-Detroit-3
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  2. #2
    Forum Frontman fudd's Avatar
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    I hope the automakers file bankruptcy to get the unions out of the picture. Thats who you can blame for all this crap.

  3. #3
    Little Dreamer theeaterofshades's Avatar
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    09.23.10 @ 01:00 PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by Executionor View Post
    Out of these 5 listed, the Taurus seems the closest to what we could use, but with 3 children, that would be crowded. I also am guessing, but I bet it would run about $25,000 to $30,000 and that is just ridiculous. Just my opinion. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have a 2010 FORD Shelby GT500KR, even if it was priced simply at inflation from a 1970, but the price has been ultra inflated. No way this $80,000/year family is gonna grab one. I really still don't think they get it.

    http://autos.yahoo.com/auto-shows/de...-the-Detroit-3
    I was in a Ford Dealership over x-mas and the 09 Taurus very nicely loaded was 20 grand. I thought it was a way better value than the corolla we got my wife earlier this fall. Only prob is how well the Taurus will hold its value.


    My biggest problem with the US automakers is why does my 2007 explorer get roughly the same MPG as my dad's f-150 or my old 2003 explorer (which was a lemon)? There is not a good reason why midsized SUVs are not making progress with gas efficiency.

    Many American families want SUVs but with better gas mileage.

    Ford has a festiva in Europe that is getting nearly 50 mpg due to being diesel; there was rumors of them building an US diesel explorer. The problem is that we tax diesel in the US so that Semi trucks have to pay extra to pay for the repairs to highways due to the extra wear and tear of hauling loads. This puts a premium on diesel fuels that does not translate to any real savings for car owners owning diesels, thus Ford's hesitance to release the Festiva or Diesel based models as a whole in the US.

  4. #4
    Atomic Punk
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    07.24.11 @ 04:36 PM
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    Though I, like many many people, think the US automobile manufacturers have some very very serious problems, most all of which were self-created, I do not think that selection and price are necessarily part of them

    I think a complete lack of progress where gas mileage is concerned is definitely one. I think marketing and intelligient business choices are another. I think union dominance is another.

    I for one bought a US car recently; A Pontiac Vibe. Not only am I ecstatic with the vehicle itself, i think the price was phenomenal. It's a great family car, side airbags, seats that have built in car seat anchors, lots of space for football/baseball/soccer gear...it's also a great car in general. Guess what else? Costs me 18 bucks to fill up my tank and I get 300 miles to the tank. Not too shabby...24 mpg overall...and the BULK of my driving is done on regular streets, with red lights and traffic. So I'm very satisfied.

    I walked out of the dealership amazed that I had not heard about the car before. I also walked out IN LOVE with the Pontiac line of vehicles but I haven't heard anyone really brag on the line, I've not seen exciting commercials, nothing. It's amazing.

  5. #5
    Atomic Punk Dave's Dreidel's Avatar
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    12.16.17 @ 06:36 AM
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    Detroit has 50 years of bad management decisions that are all coming due.

    It is impossible to pin onto one thing, they have made so many bad decisions that it would fill a very lengthy book.

    Even though the Big Three made the agreements with the UAW and should be required to stand by them, I don't see how the Big Three continue with the Union cost on their books.

    Their base cost before buying one bolt on a car is so muck higher than their competitors, it is just hard to see how they compete.
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  6. #6
    Eruption Dr5115's Avatar
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    12.15.17 @ 10:35 AM
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    Apples to Oranges but......

    The airline industry underwent a huge transformation after 9-11. The unions (under bankruptcy) had to give away or re-negotiate retirements and work rules / benefits were changed. Under BK most airlines cut their debt in half and became very lean companies. Today, they STILL find it difficult to make $$$.

    This is more than just the unions, it's also bad management, which as was posted above.......just doesn't get it.

    VW has had turbo diesels out for years that get 40 mpg. Why not hook up a turbo diesel to a hybrid system? The technology is there to make a larger vehicle that gets very good mpg.

    The weak should die..................

    NO bailouts.................

  7. #7
    Atomic Punk
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    07.24.11 @ 04:36 PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr5115 View Post
    The weak should die..................

    NO bailouts.................
    I agree. However, i find it very interesting to hear people declare that nothing is more important than the law of survival and evolution and say things like "the weak should die" when it comes to a corporation because very seldom would they apply that same outlook to people. For instance, if the three large US automakers die, thousand and thousands and thousands of people may lose their job. Sucks for them big time. Sometimes things like that have to happen but I wonder if we'd have the same outlook if we were the ones working the assembly line. Another instance would be people with disabilities. In a jungle, if a lion is born with brain damage or some sort of physical disability, they get left behind and something eats it. The weak should die. Here we spit in the face of survival by using extreme medicine and telethons and every other means possible of keeping them alive...even if they can barely realize they are alive. Anyway...that's all...i just find it very interesting how many of us get very cut-throat and callous when it comes to something abstract like macro-economics and the role of corporations yet I don't think any of us would walk into a union meeting full of guys close to retirement from a job they've hated but have held onto because of the benefits and pension and tell them why they should all lose their jobs and benefits...because they're weak. What's more, the very thought of letting a disabled child die is horrific and akin to nazism. I don't think too many of us would hang around a hospital and walk into delivery rooms and tell mom and dad their new baby with downs syndrome needs to be put down. The weak should die. I also don't think too many of us would apply that rationale to third world countries. We Are the World, Feed the Children etc etc are all examples of us not applying "the weak should die" mentality. Us people can be a strange group sometimes...what with our souls and compassion and rationales and reasoning. Not saying I'm different, I'm just saying.

    anyway...back to the thread.
    Last edited by broken9500; 01.17.09 at 08:56 AM.

  8. #8
    Atomic Punk
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    12.11.17 @ 04:37 PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by broken9500 View Post
    I for one bought a US car recently; A Pontiac Vibe. Not only am I ecstatic with the vehicle itself, i think the price was phenomenal. It's a great family car, side airbags, seats that have built in car seat anchors, lots of space for football/baseball/soccer gear...it's also a great car in general. Guess what else? Costs me 18 bucks to fill up my tank and I get 300 miles to the tank. Not too shabby...24 mpg overall...and the BULK of my driving is done on regular streets, with red lights and traffic. So I'm very satisfied.
    If you didn't know previously, the Vibe is essentially a reskinned Toyota Matrix... In either case, they'll make a good, long lasting car... Hopefully you got the 2.4, since I have heard the 1.8 is a little enemic...
    "Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack. -- Gen. George S. Patton

  9. #9
    Atomic Punk
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    07.24.11 @ 04:36 PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by voivod View Post
    If you didn't know previously, the Vibe is essentially a reskinned Toyota Matrix... In either case, they'll make a good, long lasting car... Hopefully you got the 2.4, since I have heard the 1.8 is a little enemic...
    i have the 2.4...very swift. I've been told though that it's the other way around...toyota has pontiac build the matrix for them at the vibe factory in california...i believe I read that at edmunds.com...either way, yeah the cars are almost identical. I prefer the body of the vibe and evidently the vibe has slightly more interior space and a nice engine...i have no idea. I'm not a car person at all. i just know i'm enjoying the hell out of my car and recomend it to anyone looking for something to carry stuff around in or with a family.

  10. #10
    Good Enough SLEEPER5150's Avatar
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    12.03.10 @ 03:16 PM
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    I agree that the restructuring really needs to cut deep in order to make a dent in the US auto industry to make it profitable again. Even the Japanese auto industry is having a tough time and are looking for a bailout.

    Also to note that the oil/gas stock speculators are'nt getting the message either.

    Oil prices are crashing, yet mysteriously gasoline prices are rising. The speculators say it's simply because of supply and demand, yet idustry and private insiders say gasoline demand has been falling due to outside economic stresses affecting driving habits. And the reality of it all is that if oil is falling there is no freak'n way gasoline prices can rise. You don't get's gas if ya don't got's oil. And the amount of gasoline you get from a barrel of oil depending on it's "sweetness" is, correct me if I'm wrong, but on average between 15 and 20 percent.

    During the infancy of oil production, gas as we know it, was simply viewed as the volitile element removed ,among other extractions, in order for oil to be used safely for primarily lubrication and steel production, and then eventually refined further for use in plastics, and a multitude of the other products we use daily. Gasoline was viewed then as a fuel in somewhat the we view Biodiesel today; a cheap method to fuel a car. Alcohol (ethanol), though clean is extremely low yield, and under todays damand is almost completely unsustainable. So despite the regular damand of oil in all these products diminished, then how can gasoline prices be higher, if due to lower demand oil costs across the board is lower due to the world economic crisis? It's not a cut and dried affair, but it does raise some very serious questions.
    She looks so $#@!'n good ,so sexy and so frail....Somethin's got the bite on me, I'm goin' straight to Hell.

  11. #11
    Sinner's Swing! twonabomber's Avatar
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    12.08.16 @ 03:21 AM
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    Quote Originally Posted by broken9500 View Post
    i have the 2.4...very swift. I've been told though that it's the other way around...toyota has pontiac build the matrix for them at the vibe factory in california...
    it's a joint Toyota/GM plant, the Geo Prizms and Corollas were made there also.

    As of December of 2008, the NUMMI plant produces the Toyota Corolla compact car, Toyota Tacoma pickup truck, and the Pontiac Vibe hatchback. In the past, it produced the Chevrolet Nova (1984-1988); the Geo Prizm (1990-1997), and the Chevrolet Prizm (1998-2002), as well as the Toyota Voltz, the Japanese right-hand drive version of the Pontiac Vibe - both are based on the Toyota Matrix, which is also manufactured in Cambridge, Ontario, Canada along with the Toyota Corolla.
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  12. #12
    carpe damn diem billy007's Avatar
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    12.16.17 @ 05:59 AM
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    Is that unique, two rival car manufacturers getting cars from the same plant? Does it use union or non-union labour?

  13. #13
    Sinner's Swing! twonabomber's Avatar
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    12.08.16 @ 03:21 AM
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    Quote Originally Posted by billy007 View Post
    Is that unique, two rival car manufacturers getting cars from the same plant? Does it use union or non-union labour?
    it's a union shop.

    the shared assembly line is not really uncommon either, the first Dodge Avengers and Chrysler Sebring coupes were just larger Mitsubishi Eclipses, built in the same plant in Illinois. not sure if they are union though. Chrysler did own a piece of Mitsu though.
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  14. #14
    Atomic Punk
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    07.24.11 @ 04:36 PM
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    i seem to recall the ford probe and the mitsubishi eclipse being built in the same place too...evidently it's rather common.

    on an aside note....i find it a bit dissapointing and surprising that no one has busted out with a jpg of Gung Ho yet...with all this talk lately about us automakers and what not, it seems long overdue!

  15. #15
    Sinner's Swing! twonabomber's Avatar
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    Probe and Mazda something or other. Ford owns part of Mazda, closer to the Chrysler/Mitsu deal than the GM/Toyota thing.

    Toyota is the leader in lean manufacturing. the "GM builds Matrix for Toyota" comment kind of made me laugh. my employer is also trying to implement Toyota practices, yet they keep telling us we are an innovative company. if we're so innovative why are we emulating another company?
    "is this a good show tonight, or fuckin' what?" - DLR, Montreal, 11/10/07

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