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  1. #46
    Banned! Andy Taylor's Avatar
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    The fact is that there are distortions throughout, most of it dedicated to making Palestinians look like the image of the knife wielding bearded rogues many already see them as in their minds. Many would make out as if this is a battle between Jews/Arabs as old as good v/s evil itself. Completely ignoring the fact that Arabs/Muslims and Jews have lived in peace in various times and eras, including early 20th century Palestine. What you have in Israel are not the genuine victims of the holocaust but a group of people who cynically use that to provide a cover against all criticism. There are Jewish groups both outside and within Israel who are critical of what their govts do; soldiers who are imprisoned for refusing to serve in Gaza.

    The left is accused of being anti-Israel. It is nothing of the kind - no one wants Israel to dissappear, like I said in a previous post, the left recognises the right of Israel to resist, AND believes that Palestine has that same right. A nuclear armed nation that used helicopter gunships to kill individuals and families on the beach is not in danger of exitinction. Nor does any current Arab government spend their time plotting ways of doing it as is constantly drummed up in the pro western media. I have lived in the middle east and I know how Iranians look upto American culture so I have to laugh at how gullible people are when the govts label a random mid-east group as the 'new' threat. Do you see the Orwellian similarity of this, one minute it was Osama, then Iraq became the biggest threat, now it's Iran. And Osama is still on the loose. The media have turned the legitimate struggle of a people into 'terrorist attacks' out of sheer bigotry and ignorance.

    It seems like some big moral issue that no one call solve, but the day that people realise that EVERYONE everywhere, in some seemingly insignificant 'pissant' country has the same human rights as you do and that no superpower has the right to take it away, people will change their attitudes to the crisis. Israel is allowed to do this only because of US aid. In other words, the US is directly sponsoring state terror, just like they funded the northern Ireland conflict, Saddam Hussein, the Mujahideen or Al Qaeda as its known today.


    I'm going to put up a series of articles over a period of time. This is info I've read over the years so it's hard to accept all at once.

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    Banned! Andy Taylor's Avatar
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    Here's a little about the journalist John Pilger. He's a big name in the UK and his movies are being shown in theatres, it's going to take awhile before the US catches on to this if ever.

    The reason I think he's brilliant is that he goes everywhere, he's got tons of first hand reports interviewing everyone from Robert Kennedy to Richard Perle to some witness in a bombed out area - a real investigative reporter.

    Publications
    Daily Mirror, The Guardian, The Independent, New Statesman, The New York Times, The Los Angeles Times, The Nation: New York, The Age: Melbourne, The Sydney Morning Herald, The Bulletin: Sydney, plus French, Italian, Scandinavian, Canadian, Japanese and other newspapers and periodicals.



    Awards include
    1966: Descriptive Writer of the Year
    1967: Reporter of the Year
    1967: Journalist of the Year
    1970: International Reporter of the Year
    1974: News Reporter of the Year
    1977: Campaigning Journalist of the Year
    1979: Journalist of the Year
    1979-80: UN Media Peace Prize, Australia
    1980-81: UN Media Peace Prize, Gold Medal, Australia
    1979: TV Times Readers' Award
    1990: The George Foster Peabody Award, USA
    1991: American Television Academy Award ('Emmy')
    1991: British Academy of Film and Television Arts - The Richard Dimbleby Award
    1990: Reporters San Frontiers Award, France
    1995: International de Television Geneve Award
    2001: The Monismanien Prize (Sweden)
    2003: The Sophie Prize for Human Rights (Norway)
    2003: EMMA Media Personality of the Year
    2004: Royal Television Society Best Documentary, 'Stealing a Nation'
    2008: Best Documentary Award - One World Awards 'The War on Democracy'

    Career Summary
    1958-62: Reporter, freelance writer, sports writer and sub-editor, Daily & Sunday Telegraph, Sydney
    1962: Freelance correspondent, Italy
    1962-63: Middle East desk, Reuter, London
    1963-86: Reporter, sub-editor, feature writer and Chief Foreign Correspondent, Daily Mirror
    1986-88: Editor-in-Chief and a founder, News on Sunday, London
    1969-71: Reporter, World in Action, Granada Television
    1974-81: Reporter/Producer, Associated Television
    1981: Documentary film-maker, Central and Carlton Television
    Last edited by Andy Taylor; 01.05.09 at 11:27 AM.

  3. #48
    Banned! Andy Taylor's Avatar
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    And here's the first article:



    One journalist's story: from triumph to torture



    2 Jul 2008

    In an article for the Guardian, John Pilger describes presenting a top journalism award to a young Palestinian, Mohammed Omer, and how, on his return home to Gaza, he was seized by the Israelis, who demanded the prize money and tortured him.

    Two weeks ago, I presented a young Palestinian, Mohammed Omer, with the 2008 Martha Gellhorn Prize for Journalism. Awarded in memory of the great American war correspondent, the prize goes to journalists who expose establishment propaganda, or “official drivel”, as Martha called it. Mohammed shares the prize of £5,000 with the fine war reporter Dahr Jamail. At 24, Mohammed is the youngest ever winner. His citation reads: “Every day, he reports from a war zone, where he is also a prisoner. His homeland, Gaza, is surrounded, starved, attacked, forgotten. He is a profoundly humane witness to one of the great injustices of our time. He is the voice of the voiceless.” The eldest of eight children, Mohammed has seen most of his siblings killed or wounded or maimed. An Israeli bulldozer crushed his home while the family were inside, seriously injuring his mother. And yet, says a former Dutch ambassador, Jan Wijenberg, “he is a moderating voice, urging Palestinian youth not to court hatred but seek peace with Israel.”

    Getting Mohammed to London to receive his prize was a major diplomatic operation. Israel has perfidious control over Gaza’s borders, and only with a Dutch embassy escort was he allowed out. Last Thursday, on his return journey, he was met at the Allenby Bridge crossing from Jordan by a Dutch official, who waited outside the Israeli building, unaware that Mohammed had been seized by Shin Bet, Israel’s infamous security organisation. Mohammed was told to turn off his cell phone and remove the battery. He asked if he could call his Dutch embassy escort and was told forcefully he could not. A man referred to as Avi stood over his luggage, picking through his documents. “Where’s the money?” he demanded. Mohammed produced some US dollars.

    “Where’s is the English pound you have?”

    “I realised,” said Mohammed, “he was after the award stipend for the Martha Gellhorn Prize. I told him I didn’t have it with me. ‘You are lying’, he said. I was now surrounded by eight Shin Bet officers, all armed. The man called Avi ordered me to take off my clothes. I had already been through an x-ray machine. I stripped down to my underwear and was told to take off everything. When I refused, Avi put his hand on his gun. I began to cry: ‘Why are you treating me this way? I am human being’. He said, ‘This is nothing compared with what you will see now’. He took his gun out, pressing it to my head and with his full body weight pinning me on my side, he forcibly removed my underwear. He then made me do a concocted sort of dance. Another man, who was laughing, said, ‘Why are you bringing perfumes?’ I replied, ‘They are gifts for the people I love’. He said, ‘Oh, do you have love in your culture?’

    “As they ridiculed me, they took delight most in mocking letters I had received from readers in England. I had now been without food and water and the toilet for twelve hours, and having been made to stand, my legs buckled. I vomited and passed out. All I remember is one of them gouging, scraping and clawing with his nails at the tender flesh beneath my eyes. He scooped my head and dug his fingers in near the auditory nerves between my head and eardrum. The pain became sharper as he dug in two fingers at a time. Another man had his combat boot on my neck, pressing into the hard floor. I lay there for over an hour. The room became a menagerie of pain, sound and terror.”

    An ambulance was called and told to take Mohammed to a hospital, but only after he had signed a statement indemnifying the Israelis from his suffering in their custody. The Palestinian medic refused, courageously, and said he would contact the Dutch embassy escort. Alarmed, the Israelis let the ambulance go. The Israeli line, as reported by Reuters, is familiar; it is that Mohammed was “suspected” of smuggling and “lost his balance” during a “fair” interrogation.

    Israeli human rights groups have documented the routine torture of Palestinians by Shin Bet agents with “beatings, painful binding, back bending, body stretching and prolonged sleep deprivation”. Amnesty has long reported the widespread use of torture by Israel, whose victims emerge as mere shadows of their former selves. Some never return. Israel is high in an international league table for its intimidation and murder of journalists, especially Palestinian journalists who receive barely a fraction of the kind of coverage given to the hostage-taking of the BBC’s Alan Johnston.

    The Dutch government says it is shocked by Mohammed Omer’s treatment. Former ambassador Jan Wijenberg said, “This is by no means an isolated incident, but part of a long term strategy to demolish Palestinian social, economic and cultural life... I am aware of the possibility that Mohammed Omer might be murdered by Israeli snipers or bomb attack in the near future.”

    While Mohammed was receiving his prize in London, the new Israeli ambassador to Britain, Ron Proser, was publicly complaining that many Britons no longer appreciated the uniqueness of Israel’s democracy. Perhaps they do now.

  4. #49
    Atomic Punk bsbll4's Avatar
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    I don't think anyone would characterize Israel's existence as a left/right policy. Every president has supported Israel, democrat or republican. Sure the Israelies can be crazy, and I don't think anyone is saying they are the picture of human rights (but then again, what country is anymore). The Palestinians also have the right to exist. They also have to stop bombing everything in sight.

    From the American perspective, the goal has always been peaceful coexistence, it is just impossible given that large amounts of both sides want to completely eradicate the other.

    The Middle East Conflict is similar to the "I'm not touching you" game when we were kids--except with guns, bombs, and real loss of life--but relevant in the manner that it demonstrates the simple human behavior that "I am not the problem--they are the problem....and they started it."
    CNN may think my opinion matters, but you shouldn't.

  5. #50
    Banned! Andy Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsbll4 View Post
    They also have to stop bombing everything in sight.

    They're not. If you read some of the reports, you'll see its Israel that broke the ceasefire and they're normally beyond attempts to obstruct peace and it's always portrayed as Palestinians doing it, even in the left leaning press, even if the anti-war folks do support Palestine inspite of this.

    Its true both left and right in the US have supported Israel. I was thinking more of the tendency in other places, like the UK.




    From the American perspective, the goal has always been peaceful coexistence, it is just impossible given that large amounts of both sides want to completely eradicate the other.

    The Middle East Conflict is similar to the "I'm not touching you" game when we were kids--except with guns, bombs, and real loss of life--but relevant in the manner that it demonstrates the simple human behavior that "I am not the problem--they are the problem....and they started it."

    The Americans are not for co-existence despite the words they might use. Actually even the words have made it clear that they will not condemn Israeli atrocities and veto anything at the UN if it condemns this sort of present barbarity. If you look a long hard look at Israeli policy, including the bombing of the USS Liberty (how do Americans continue to ignore this?) right down to the recent incident of a Israeli ship ramming into another ship with congresswoman Cynthia McKinney on board in international waters bringing medical aid to Gaza, you'd have no trouble identifying the aggressors. Palestine is an occupied land. Israeli's are outsiders mostly from Europe, America and Russia. So yes, the people that occupied Palestine aided by Britain and the US did infact start this whole conflict. All of this to solve the errors of a European problem.

  6. #51
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    Default Mainstream Media Not Reporting Israel Follows International Law; Hamas Does Not

    Mainstream Media Not Reporting Israel Follows International Law; Hamas Does Not


    By Herb Denenberg, The Bulletin
    Published: Monday, January 05, 2009

    The easiest way for anyone in the media to get a scoop is to write anything that is fair and balanced and with respect for the truth on the conflict in the Middle East. That’s because the mainstream media, such as The New York Times, NBC, Philadelphia Inquirer, etc., take the usual anti-Israel line, and fail to report on anything that might put Israel in a good light. So this is my scoop for today.

    You may have encountered “The Brave New World,” but now you better brace yourself for “The Crazy New World.” Even George Orwell would be shocked by what is going on now, with what might be called triple Orwellian inversions.

    If someone was writing a memo to the nations on conducting foreign policy, it might look like what follows:

    If you want the support of the United Nations, most of the world, and the Western media, the formula is quite simple. All you have to do is as follows:

    1. Start by having a founding document that has as its central purpose the perpetration of genocide.

    2. Then attack your neighboring country by firing rockets at the civilian population, in violation of international law.

    3. Hide your rockets and other terrorist equipment in homes and other location where there are many civilians, to maximize the death and injury count when lawful and necessary defensive measures are taken to neutralize your illegal activity, another violation of international law. When your own people are thus murdered by your own acts, you can use it for propaganda purposes.

    You can be sure the Western media will run as many pictures of the dead and injured (for which you are responsible) in a fashion designed to generate sympathy for your position, and that same Western media will be largely uninterested in the civilian casualties caused in the neighboring country by your terrorism.

    4. Exaggerate and lie at every opportunity to inflate the number of civilian casualties in your own land (for which you are responsible by hiding military facilities in civilian locations). That’s for the benefit of the Western media, which will of course publish and eat up any exaggeration or fabrication you care to pass along. Even if you have a long history of exaggerating and lying on such matters as civilian casualties, the Western media will continue to take your claims at face value.

    5. When your neighbor responds to your illegal, genocidal attacks, appeal to the U.N. and world opinion for a cease-fire so you can rearm and get ready to slaughter and murder civilians in new ways and with greater ferocity, as soon as you want to end the cease-fire.

    6. Instead of building your own economy and helping your own people, put all your resources into terrorist attacks against your neighbor and divert the humanitarian aid that flows into your land to your own program for genocide, aggression and terror.

    7. When your economy turns sour — which it will do inevitably because your first priority is war and terror and not nation building, which is your last priority — and when it is further damaged by the measures of self-defense taken by your neighbor, claim there is a “humanitarian crisis” and a cease fire and more aid is urgently required.

    8. Continue your endless attempts to slaughter and butcher civilians, including those of your neighbor and even those of your own people for propaganda purposes, and then claim any self-defense measures taken by your neighbor are “disproportionate.”

    9. Continue to violate every international law on the books, making a mockery not only of law but also of the most basic precepts of humanity and civilization, and then claim your neighbor, who is compelled to act in self-defense, is committing “war crimes.”

    By now, I’m sure you know this memo was a precise description of Hamas and its genocidal campaign against Israel, and the reaction of the United Nations, of much of world opinion and of the nations of the world, and of the Western media. To say what is happening is outrageous is a gross understatement, and stronger terms must be resorted to, such as an outbreak of international insanity. The world and the media seem to be on the side of genocide and terrorism.

    The mainstream media, as is its custom, is going out of the way to team with the U.N. and many of the nations of the world, in condemning Israel, attempting to deny Israel its inherent right of self-defense, in calling for a cease fire, claiming a humanitarian crisis, and in doing everything else it can to deny Israel its right to exist.

    Among the many deficiencies of the reporting are the almost complete failure to discuss the international law that is applicable, how Hamas is in violation of countless international conventions and other provisions of international law and how Israel’s response to the terrorism of Hamas is totally justified and supported by international law.

    Here are some of the provisions of international law that make a compelling case against Hamas, the position of most nations, and the position of the United Nations. They are of interest because the mainstream media are not interested in reporting on the international law controlling the conflict, as it does not fit their anti-Israel agenda.

    More on International Law....

    http://www.thebulletin.us/articles/2...a649711765.txt

  7. #52
    Banned! Andy Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Rover View Post
    Mainstream Media Not Reporting Israel Follows International Law; Hamas Does Not


    By Herb Denenberg, The Bulletin
    Published: Monday, January 05, 2009

    The easiest way for anyone in the media to get a scoop is to write anything that is fair and balanced and with respect for the truth on the conflict in the Middle East. That’s because the mainstream media, such as The New York Times, NBC, Philadelphia Inquirer, etc., take the usual anti-Israel line, and fail to report on anything that might put Israel in a good light. So this is my scoop for today.

    You may have encountered “The Brave New World,” but now you better brace yourself for “The Crazy New World.” Even George Orwell would be shocked by what is going on now, with what might be called triple Orwellian inversions.

    If someone was writing a memo to the nations on conducting foreign policy, it might look like what follows:

    If you want the support of the United Nations, most of the world, and the Western media, the formula is quite simple. All you have to do is as follows:

    1. Start by having a founding document that has as its central purpose the perpetration of genocide.
    Propaganda

    2. Then attack your neighboring country by firing rockets at the civilian population, in violation of international law.
    Hamas are already regularly labelled as terrorists. Israel is also violating international law by firing into areas with a civillian population. The US media never calls them state terrorists.

    3. Hide your rockets and other terrorist equipment in homes and other location where there are many civilians, to maximize the death and injury count when lawful and necessary defensive measures are taken to neutralize your illegal activity, another violation of international law. When your own people are thus murdered by your own acts, you can use it for propaganda purposes.
    Further demonisation of Palestinians. This is to accuse them of cowardice and propaganda? The resistance in any country (see French in WW2) fights within the city and not in an open battleground. Can you even tell me where you would find such an area in a walled ghetto? If America was invaded would not every American who believes in gun ownership and has one, fire on troops in his neighbourhood. Or would he go face down a tank and be assured of his death and his families? Once again, this is right wing propaganda.

    You can be sure the Western media will run as many pictures of the dead and injured (for which you are responsible) in a fashion designed to generate sympathy for your position, and that same Western media will be largely uninterested in the civilian casualties caused in the neighboring country by your terrorism.
    And yet the US is overwhelmingly pro-Israel, even the so called left democrats. Gee, maybe that's because Palestinians are called terrorists for defending themselves with 'deadly' rocket attacks that have hardly killed many people especially when compared with Israel's victims.

    4. Exaggerate and lie at every opportunity to inflate the number of civilian casualties in your own land (for which you are responsible by hiding military facilities in civilian locations). That’s for the benefit of the Western media, which will of course publish and eat up any exaggeration or fabrication you care to pass along. Even if you have a long history of exaggerating and lying on such matters as civilian casualties, the Western media will continue to take your claims at face value.
    Bullshit, for the same reason as response to 3.


    5. When your neighbor responds to your illegal, genocidal attacks, appeal to the U.N. and world opinion for a cease-fire so you can rearm and get ready to slaughter and murder civilians in new ways and with greater ferocity, as soon as you want to end the cease-fire.
    For the last time, it was Israel that broke the cease fire. Get your facts in order.

    6. Instead of building your own economy and helping your own people, put all your resources into terrorist attacks against your neighbor and divert the humanitarian aid that flows into your land to your own program for genocide, aggression and terror.
    The Jews were adept at 'building their own economy' from the Warsaw ghetto. Thereby proving that Americans are still completely in the dark about the issue as a whole - that Palestine is under occupation and they cannot freely trade or 'build' their economy. They can't even find DRINKING WATER easily you numbnuts!

    7. When your economy turns sour — which it will do inevitably because your first priority is war and terror and not nation building, which is your last priority — and when it is further damaged by the measures of self-defense taken by your neighbor, claim there is a “humanitarian crisis” and a cease fire and more aid is urgently required.
    Propaganda. See above.

    8. Continue your endless attempts to slaughter and butcher civilians, including those of your neighbor and even those of your own people for propaganda purposes, and then claim any self-defense measures taken by your neighbor are “disproportionate.”
    Propaganda. See above.

    9. Continue to violate every international law on the books, making a mockery not only of law but also of the most basic precepts of humanity and civilization, and then claim your neighbor, who is compelled to act in self-defense, is committing “war crimes.”
    Israel has never acted in self-defence. Ask Lebanon who were bombed half way back to the stone age.

    By now, I’m sure you know this memo was a precise description of Hamas and its genocidal campaign against Israel, and the reaction of the United Nations, of much of world opinion and of the nations of the world, and of the Western media. To say what is happening is outrageous is a gross understatement, and stronger terms must be resorted to, such as an outbreak of international insanity. The world and the media seem to be on the side of genocide and terrorism.
    By now I know this is typical right wing manure. Especially that last line shows neo-con thinking and they are most twisted war minded fuckers on the planet.

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    Atomic Punk bsbll4's Avatar
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    I think it's hilarious that you are talking about how deplorable Israel's atrocities while completely glossing over or downright ignoring/denying those of the Palestinians. You are as bad as the "war-minded fuckers" you rail against, you're just on the other side.

    True intelligence is seeing the gray area.
    CNN may think my opinion matters, but you shouldn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsbll4 View Post
    I think it's hilarious that you are talking about how deplorable Israel's atrocities while completely glossing over or downright ignoring/denying those of the Palestinians. You are as bad as the "war-minded fuckers" you rail against, you're just on the other side.

    True intelligence is seeing the gray area.
    Thank you. There are so many people ready to just give the palestinians and hamas a complete pass. I'm amazed at how much attention the anti-Israel side is getting right now, and not just here but on TV. I spent hours watching CNN, CNBC and Fox on Friday night into Saturday morning...all they talked about was the protests. The only people they interviewed were people saying Israel had no right to do what they were doing or were overreacting. I don't know what channels a lot of you are watching, but Israel is not being given a pass by the big bad evil cable news networks in the US.

  10. #55
    Sinner's Swing! graeme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by broken9500 View Post
    Thank you. There are so many people ready to just give the palestinians and hamas a complete pass. I'm amazed at how much attention the anti-Israel side is getting right now, and not just here but on TV. I spent hours watching CNN, CNBC and Fox on Friday night into Saturday morning...all they talked about was the protests. The only people they interviewed were people saying Israel had no right to do what they were doing or were overreacting. I don't know what channels a lot of you are watching, but Israel is not being given a pass by the big bad evil cable news networks in the US.

    I agree with the post you quoted - there are no innocents in these actions except the civilians who just want to get on with their lives.

    It's funny what you said about the US channels. I can only get CNN here in germany and I've noticed a shift in the very blatant pro_israel stance of the early days; very different to the BBC and German news at the outset, but the public demonstrations have to be reported and they are mostly in sympathy for the Palestinians.

    I think a major point here is that the protests are actually more important in a way. The protests are a measure of how the fighting is spreading out of Gaza. Sure, there are no deaths yet, but this wave of anger, whether you might feel it is misplaced or not, is picking up momentum by the day.

    If this conflict ends this minute, the outside reaction is going to get much, much worse as the cameras go into Gaza - long after the final bullet is fired.

    Right or wrong, Israel is seen as the bad guy by 80% (OK a guess, but you know what I mean) of the world, regardless of who fired first - there is evidence to support both sides of the argument - and if that is even important anyway.

    More than this immediate localised conflict itself, I am more worried about what happens next as reaction becomes action, whether by Israel, Arab states or the wider world.

    To my mind, it will either be very bad or absolutely catastrophic.

    For the world, this is a LOSE-LOSE situation.
    A man could lose himself in a country like this.

    My blog at http://tollins.blogspot.de/

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    Banned! Andy Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsbll4 View Post
    I think it's hilarious that you are talking about how deplorable Israel's atrocities while completely glossing over or downright ignoring/denying those of the Palestinians. You are as bad as the "war-minded fuckers" you rail against, you're just on the other side.

    True intelligence is seeing the gray area.
    You are the one being mindless because you have learnt to spout the phrases, gray area and objectivity, no matter what the subject. 'True intelligence' is now parroting what the talking heads spout.

    You show that you have just switched off your brain and accused me of glossing over something when I made my position clear in more than one post. Go back you might see it. BOTH of them have a right to exist. It's just that (anyone ought to be able to see this unless they are incredibly blinded) Israel is way more powerful than Palestine and they are OCCUPYING Palestine, not the other way round. Israel occupies a land and it is always in their power to give the concessions Palestinians have been asking for. How about access to water for starters? Trust me, for all your 'objectivity' you are very one sided, because you only know one side of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by graeme View Post
    I agree with the post you quoted - there are no innocents in these actions except the civilians who just want to get on with their lives.

    It's funny what you said about the US channels. I can only get CNN here in germany and I've noticed a shift in the very blatant pro_israel stance of the early days; very different to the BBC and German news at the outset, but the public demonstrations have to be reported and they are mostly in sympathy for the Palestinians.

    I think a major point here is that the protests are actually more important in a way. The protests are a measure of how the fighting is spreading out of Gaza. Sure, there are no deaths yet, but this wave of anger, whether you might feel it is misplaced or not, is picking up momentum by the day.

    If this conflict ends this minute, the outside reaction is going to get much, much worse as the cameras go into Gaza - long after the final bullet is fired.

    Right or wrong, Israel is seen as the bad guy by 80% (OK a guess, but you know what I mean) of the world, regardless of who fired first - there is evidence to support both sides of the argument - and if that is even important anyway.

    More than this immediate localised conflict itself, I am more worried about what happens next as reaction becomes action, whether by Israel, Arab states or the wider world.

    To my mind, it will either be very bad or absolutely catastrophic.

    For the world, this is a LOSE-LOSE situation.
    CNN has always showed a measure of sympathy for Palestine, while being careful to speak of Hamas as a terrorist group even though they are a democratically elected government with a military wing. Just like any other nation has a military. But unfortunately because they don't have advanced cruise missile technology, they are labelled as the bad guys. Only big powers are justified in killing people. People like John Pilger speak of the subtelty of western propaganda, especially the BBC and I have to agree. They go criticise Israel and their own British governments but especially on CNN they stop short of calling it what it really is. Because if they have to admit what is really going on, they have to admit their entire side is wrong. And no one wants to accept that they could be the ones that are barbaric. The media is truly offering the western perspective.

  13. #58
    Banned! Andy Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Taylor View Post
    You are the one being mindless because you have learnt to spout the phrases, gray area and objectivity, no matter what the subject. 'True intelligence' is now parroting what the talking heads spout.

    You show that you have just switched off your brain and accused me of glossing over something when I made my position clear in more than one post. Go back you might see it. BOTH of them have a right to exist. It's just that (anyone ought to be able to see this unless they are incredibly blinded) Israel is way more powerful than Palestine and they are OCCUPYING Palestine, not the other way round. Israel occupies a land and it is always in their power to give the concessions Palestinians have been asking for. How about access to water for starters? Trust me, for all your 'objectivity' you are very one sided, because you only know one side of it.
    Maybe I'm just a talking head then, because I came up with that on my own.

    I'm not sure how saying both are equally at fault for continuing this stupidity is one sided. It seems like anyone who disagrees with you is someone just falling for propaganda. Maybe it's you that is falling for the propaganda.
    CNN may think my opinion matters, but you shouldn't.

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